[Closed] Pro riders - results v reputation etc

Being a "pro" rider isn't just about getting results, it's about coverage and selling bikes/kit.

I think it's fair to say most of the top 50 riders could win a world cup on a given day, if they can put a run together. The guys who can win consistently are the elite of the elite.

The riders who win once, or get close are no less worthy of respect or admiration and their personalities make world cup dh what it is.

I think wyn is the perfect example of offering more than just results , lots of coverage wearing his sponsors logos . Also don't dismiss faircloughs results , he is consistently top 15 and has hit top ten a couple of times in the last couple of years .
I like the guys that seem to be enjoying it , they know they are living the dream and have a blast doing it .I bet Gee falls into that category it's just that he doesn't show that side so much , the impression from the outside is that the athertons live in the gym and are entirely focused on results where as gt or the syndicate seem to be about having fun with your Mates and racing at the weekend , who's to say what's right or which one sells more bikes

Curtis Keene is 8th in the overall this year for the EWS. He's always been fast, just had a few shitty years. Question is why do we have pro riders? It's so their sponsors can use their results and profile to sell bikes. Personality, style, results, they all go hand in hand. Stuttard is the 3rd ranked Brit after Mark Scott and Joe Barnes. His lack of profile may be deliberate for all I know.

I think as long as WC DH is a sport only really watched by other riders there will be jobs for riders who can sell bikes first and win second. Is that such a bad thing? Who wants a field of Athertons, fast determined but because of corp backers like Jeep won't say anything too interesting.

DH is hardly alone in it, about a third of the F1 grid is there because of personal backers rather than on merit per-se.

Genuine question , has anyone over the age of 25 bought a bike based on the fact a favourite pro has ridden one ? When I was 15 I would of killed for a gt lobo because Steve peat rode one but now in my late 30s I would feel a bit of a prat if I bought a canyon because I like Joe Barnes

moonsaballoon - Member
Genuine question , has anyone over the age of 25 bought a bike based on the fact a favourite pro has ridden one ? When I was 15 I would of killed for a gt lobo because Steve peat rode one but now in my late 30s I would feel a bit of a prat if I bought a canyon because I like Joe Barnes

It can certainly help, for example the YT Tues being unproven at dh racing until they signed Gwin, which hugely raised the profile of the company (relatively unknown in the US) and prove the Tues is as fast as the bikes from more established companies. Also signing a bunch of freeriders and having them huck the Tues down the Rampage course also helps alleviate some of the reputation they were getting for frames cracking.

Another example of that being the new Cube DH bike, which was completely new and unproven so they built up a new DH team around it, which has seen some pretty decent results again confirming the bike's a good-un.

That's because as adult you want to believe that you've bought the best bike for you and you haven't been swayed by marketing and you value individuality. As a teen you don't yet have confidence in your individuality so your self worth and personality is based on who and what you associate yourself with.

The marketing message you respond to as an adult will be more subtle and not as blatant as "Peaty rides that so I'll get one"

@moonsaballoon

Rider endorsement / performance / personality is just part of the marketing machine. If we believed we just bought bikes on merit, how many bikes would Santa Cruz (I know we always pick on them) sell, yeah they make good bikes, but so do a lot of manufacturers, more mainstream makers makes bikes that are just as good for less, discount makers like YT and canyon make bikes just as good for a LOT less and there are other makers who make equally as fancy boutique stuff for the same sort of money but don't have nearly the same market share.

If we just bought with our heads Santa Cruz should sell about 4 bikes a year, but they've got the sort of brand that means people will spend 2/3 times what a Capra costs for a Nomad or Bronson, where as Cove who have if anything a bigger history with MTB have withered in the last couple of years.

I'm certainly not immune to marketing , my last two bikes were a bird aeris a and a Orange rx9 road cross type thing . The bird appealed as something about the business seemed to tick a box for me and the Orange was me wanting a road bike but still looking at brands that as a mtber I knew .
It can work the other way though , when Joe Barnes rode an Orange 5 down Ben a'an my mate was quite miffed by it as he reckoned he would never be able to make excuses about not riding his 5 down similar stuff 😀

Another example of that being the new Cube DH bike, which was completely new and unproven so they built up a new DH team around it, which has seen some pretty decent results again confirming the bike's a good-un.

It's not really about selling DH bikes though as that's a very niche end of the market. It's more about making you think of the brand in general for when your next mince-tank like most of the mtb population (and some other types of bike too)

Curtis Keene is 8th in the overall this year for the EWS. He's always been fast, just had a few shitty years. Question is why do we have pro riders? It's so their sponsors can use their results and profile to sell bikes. Personality, style, results, they all go hand in hand. Stuttard is the 3rd ranked Brit after Mark Scott and Joe Barnes. His lack of profile may be deliberate for all I know.

I hadn't noticed how well Scott was going to be honest, and I somehow forgot about Joe Barnes, which is ironic considering since I was referring to riders known for their edits. I don't know anything about Stuttard, but he seemed disappointed at his lack of recognition in his comments Pinkbike.

Genuine question , has anyone over the age of 25 bought a bike based on the fact a favourite pro has ridden one ?

If we believed we just bought bikes on merit, how many bikes would Santa Cruz

I think you've picked on the wrong ex-boutique brand, they'd sell loads based on merit, assuming you mean winning races. Their bikes have won at least one WC DH race for 8 out of the the last 10 years, been on the podium a lot more often, won the series overall more than once, won the world champs more than once.

Add to that likeable people who seem to be having a good time and I think you've got a very marketable product.

This thread is the perfect answer to the 'Why no DH in the Olympics?' thread; it's the whole 'but those guys are so much cooler than those guys' thing. It's less a sport and more a carefully structured ad campaign with cool nicknames.

Well that and the fact it has the most skilled bike riders on the planet.

...who are ranked by the fans in terms of how much fun they look like they're having when not competing.

it's the whole 'but those guys are so much cooler than those guys' thing. It's less a sport and more a carefully structured ad campaign with cool nicknames.

Don't forget the psikk threads, dood! No aero when you can rock teh gnar pyjamas, bro!

[img] ?1339194708[/img]

...who are ranked by the fans in terms of how much fun they look like they're having when not competing.

Fish in a barrel CF, fish in a barrel.

Lets have a gravity assisted sport and wear the least aero clothing we can because fashion.

( I actually like DH, I go and watch whenever I can and admire the skills on display but if a sport doesn't take itself seriously, why should anyone else?)

...who are ranked by the fans in terms of how much fun they look like they're having when not competing.

wrecker - Member
Well that and the fact it has the most skilled [s]bike[/s] downhill riders on the planet.

FTFY 😉

I'm pretty sure thay are ranked by how fast they are. The best aren't always the most popular in any sport.

Let me help you:

...who are ranked[b][u] by the fans[/u] [/b]in terms of how much fun they look like they're having when not competing.

I'll be having none of your tomfoolery david!

...who are ranked by the fans in terms of how much fun they look like they're having when not competing.

Yes dear, but in terms of the popularity of the riders, there is a social/lifestyle/cool guy element which overshadows their actual achievements, which I believe was the original point of the thread.

It's a great niche part of the sport, but it will never amount to much in wider terms until it grows up a bit.

I'm sure footballers would perform better in full lycra too.

Football isn't a time trial.
Downhill racing is
Skin suits are proven to be faster
They are against UCI DH rules because it didn't fit the 'image' the sport wanted to portray.

(bike) trials is a great example of this.

hans rey moved towards freeriding/ adventure riding for magazine piece - ridden for GT for almost 30 years.
martyn ashton (world champion + multiple brit champ) gave up competing to focus on demos/ magazine pieces.
chris akrigg - time national champs - on record that competitive trials 'had run it's course' best known for his 'messing around' videos - he's not even riding a competitive sport now.
danny mackaskil - has he even ever competed? does anyone care.

all of these riders are promoting the sport doing 'edits' rather than winning medals/ rainbow stripes.

There is in most sports is there not sweetheart? Some people just identify with certain types.
I see bryceland is getting some stick, mainly because he's a lad. People forget that he won the whole bloody thing not so long ago and is still not fully recovered from a horrendous injury.
If anyone is deserving of stick, it's Fairclough who is all style over substance. But he sells kit. I'm sure Scott love winning races, but they love shifting units more.

Yes dear, but in terms of the popularity of the riders, there is a social/lifestyle/cool guy element which overshadows their actual achievements, which I believe was the original point of the thread.

Some proof;
Cedric.
[img] [/img]
Awesome rider, cooler than a penguin's pantry, but results? Pah. Who needs 'em!
[img] [/img]

As above, I like DH. A lot. Great to watch, but it needs to decide if it's an image fest or a sport. If being [u]fastest [/u]is the most important and [i][u]if[/u][/i] it's a course where aero would make you even half a second [u]faster[/u] then surely, as before, is it about being the fastest?

There's certainly a few riders in factory teams who do little to deserve their position. I'm not going to name names as I'm sure they're decent guys and do loads for their respective brands but a single (fluke?) World Cup win and they've had 5 years of being "potential contenders".

For a long time Danny H was one of them and he's turned it around bigtime this year and is finally living up to [i]that[/i] run

As above, I like DH. A lot. Great to watch, but it needs to decide if it's an image fest or a sport. If being fastest is the most important and if it's a course where aero would make you even half a second faster then surely, as before, is it about being the fastest?

Samesies. It's fine as it is IMO. I'm sure the riders think so aswell. It's just people on forums who seem desperate to get it in the Olympics/on SPOTY etc. etc.

There's certainly a few riders in factory teams who do little to deserve their position. I'm not going to name names as I'm sure they're decent guys and do loads for their respective brands but a single (fluke?) World Cup win and they've had 5 years of being "potential contender

You mean rob Warner?

but results? Pah. Who needs 'em!

As above, I like DH. A lot. Great to watch, but it needs to decide if it's an image fest or a sport.

I wonder how many of the riders have different images and level of profile in thier home countries / other countries? The UK population (and therefore bike sales I presume) is pretty small...

I am well aware of his early race career, very promising junior. Four or five world cup wins? His more recent, and arguably more lucrative, riding career has been more based on image than results. Good for him.

with Sam Hill, Gee (both past it but on big teams)

No doubt it's been said but either of these could win any race on any given day.

and arguably more lucrative,

CaptainFlashheart

Some proof;
Cedric.

Awesome rider, cooler than a penguin's pantry, but results? Pah. Who needs 'em!

Do you really need reminded of Gracia's achievements? Numerous WC and 4X wins. 3rd place in WC overall. 3rd place in 4x overall world cup while competing at DH as well. Oh and won the Rampage, which in his own words is what made him (financially) and cemented his reputation.

. Great to watch, but it needs to decide if it's an image fest or a sport. If being fastest is the most important and if it's a course where aero would make you even half a second faster then surely, as before, is it about being the fastest?

I'm struggling to think of any sport where the regulatory bodies don't exert any control. Am I wrong in saying the UCI enforces extremely strict rules on the shape, weight and overall design of roadbikes so they retain some kind of recognizable look and continuity of design?

https://www.rootsandrain.com/rider2956/cedric-gracia/results/

Last WC Win in 2011. One of four WC wins.

Rampage isn't a race.

GRacia will never be remembered for winning races; he'll be remembered for stylish riding, pratting about and suicide no handers on the step down at fort bill

he'll be remembered for stylish riding, pratting about and suicide no handers on the step down at fort bill

All of which was utterly awesome! He's a great rider, but his reputation is, as you rightly point out, not borne out of his results.

CaptainFlashheart

https://www.rootsandrain.com/rider2956/cedric-gracia/results/

Last WC Win in 2011. One of four WC wins.

2nd place 9 times. 3rd place 7 times. Oh and there was that Junior World Championship he won.

Rampage isn't a race.

It's not, but it's an extremely prestigious (and very high profile) mountain bike competition that he won.

Gracia invested his money very wisely well before 2011.
I'm still interested in hearing all about this

arguably more lucrative, riding career

Picking through some stuff

Who wants a field of Athertons, fast determined but because of corp backers like Jeep won't say anything too interesting.

I'm pretty sure thay are ranked by how fast they are. The best aren't always the most popular in any sport. I'm sure footballers would perform better in full lycra too.

GRacia will never be remembered for winning races; he'll be remembered for stylish riding, pratting about and suicide no handers on the step down at fort bill

Rampage isn't a race.

It's not, but it's an extremely prestigious (and very high profile) mountain bike competition that he won.

Of the Pro's who are well known there are those who are just the winningest 😉 Peaty and Minnaar for instance. Rachel and T-Mo - who again is one of the nices people in the sport.

Reputation/Presence is about what you can offer on top of any results - seeing Fairclough do this
[url= https://c3.staticflickr.com/1/705/22267008146_32d320818a_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://c3.staticflickr.com/1/705/22267008146_32d320818a_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/zVEeKy ]Mod-2812[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikewsmith/ ]Mike Smith[/url], on Flickr
beats a lot of WC podiums, also check out the sections he has in a lot of recent films, hanging with his mates being just like you or I (except exceeding talented on a bike)

Some people are either the kind who are naturally makretable/popular or work out how to. If you want to last 20 years in MTB then you need to work on more than just riding.

edit just spied this

Gracia invested his money very wisely well before 2011.
I'm still interested in hearing all about this

arguably more lucrative, riding career

he has going on?

Who wants a field of Athertons, fast determined but because of corp backers like Jeep won't say anything too interesting.

The Athertons were pretty much there right at the start of all these pissing about 'edits' you get these days with the Atherton project. Not sure where this idea that they are a bit too race focused to be fun idea comes from. Seen some of the stuff they jump in their spare time at Revo Bikepark? 😯

Only this week, Rachel has been publicly putting Rob Warner and Claudio Callouri in their place following comments they made on her MSA race run about being so good because she rides with her brothers.

Also all the stuff they do beyond the racing such as the hardline and the foxhunt.

The Athertons are proper bo.

I think the athertons are the only mtbers who have managed to turn themselves into a brand , plenty of people have signature grips , pedals etc but they are the only ones who have gone the whole hog the way teams do in what you might call more mainstream sports , and that might be the issue people have with them , in downhill it was never cool to admit that you trained or lifted weights . I don't think that's the case now but maybe it still is for some people .
If you read interviews with Hannah Barnes she is quite open about not being the best racer but but offering specialized something different , I could see how if you were top 10 in the ews without any real support that would irk you somewhat

Have you heard Rachel being interviewd? She doesn't have much time for some of the UCI and organisers. Her position and security of sponsors means she can speak ehr mind and is very interesting to listen to.

You'll have to point out some interesting stuff but I don't find "extreme sports star sticking it to the man" that interesting and it's a bit hackneyed, especially considering she and her brothers have made their money riding in championships run by those organisations. Enduro cut itself loose of the UCI, if they all feel that strongly they can do the same with DH.

Anyway, I'm 41, I'm constantly impressed by DH riders skills but rarely find them that engaging to listen to, but I'm not the target market for their image I imagine.

moonsaballoon

but they are the only ones who have gone the whole hog the way teams do in what you might call more mainstream sports , and that might be the issue people have with them

I would put it all down to Gee and his attitude. His hot seat mannerisms and his post race interviews when things didn't go his way.

If you read interviews with Hannah Barnes she is quite open about not being the best racer but but offering specialized something different , I could see how if you were top 10 in the ews without any real support that would irk you somewhat

It's the same in a lot of sports. Anna Kournikova has apparently got a net worth of over 50M dollars but rarely had the results to trouble the top players. Fair to the less photogenic but more talented players, probably not but life rarely is 🙂

You'll have to point out some interesting stuff but I don't find "extreme sports star sticking it to the man" that interesting and it's a bit hackneyed, especially

Enduro cut itself loose of the UCI, if they all feel that strongly they can do the same with DH.

There was a serious attempt at splitting the DH (Called DH1) when Rocky Road (remember them?) got hold of the sponsorship and had most of the unofficial media who were doing the bulk of the leg work covering DH booted. They were damm close to getting it going when the UCI caved in.

This isn't a DH only thing. All sports have it. Sagan won't be remembered for being possibly the best all round road racer of his generation. He'll be remembered by the average man in the street as the bloke who pulls one handed wheelies during the TDF.

What we're forgetting is out of say a 100 people in a DH race (or any other race for that matter) realistically only 10-20 of them really stand a chance of winning. The majority of racers are on their way up or down the ladder. Some will never fully rise to the top, but can prolong their careers by being good for the brand. That doesn't mean that they're not one the top 100 best in the world. They're just not top 5.

Racing would be a lot less exciting if only the enough riders for 1st, 2nd and 3rd raced.

I think the issue most riders have with the Athertons is that Gee comes across so boring, and the others get tarred with it. It doesn't look like he enjoys racing. It's not dissimilar to Casey Stoner in Moto GP, fans didn't warm to him because it seemed like he was there because it was job, not his passion.

Pedrosa also has less of a fan base despite being hugely consistent because he's managed to hold onto a factory ride when not being in with a shot of winning the overall.

This sums it up perfectly

[img] [/img]

To be fair to Gee, most people would seem pretty straight compared to Ratboy... 😀

I think the issue most riders have with the Athertons is that Gee comes across so boring, and the others get tarred with it. It doesn't look like he enjoys racing.

I don't agree. He comes across as focussed on his racing, but not like he doesn't enjoy it. Again, watch some of the ****tin about he gets up to in the Atherton project edits.

Gee Atherton being boring recently...
[img] [/img]

I see other very clearly focussed riders as a little dull too, but appreciate that they are focussed and not necessarily as entertaining as the likes of Ratboy all the time.

He comes across as focussed on his racing, but not like he doesn't enjoy it

Speaking of podiums, I thought Ratboy made a bit of a dick of himself when he (pretended?) didn't know the words to the national anthem.

mark88 - Look at that picture of him on the podium - he doesn't look like someone who is delighted to be there!

He looks like I would do if someone was trying to take the piss out of me in my moment or recognition.

Video wise, Fairclough seems to say "I'm cool", Briceland seems to say "I'm cooler than you".

Video wise, Fairclough seems to say "I'm cool", Briceland seems to say "I'm cooler than you"

Gee Atherton being boring recently...

What he DOES is exciting, the persona he adopts is boring is what I think people are saying

I don’t have a problem with him, and I'm not sure he's boring, but he can come across as if he's trying to be someone he's not. He's an excellent DH rider with a shed load of achievements, but he isn't a pin up boy for Redbull and he doesn't sound stoked when he says, 'stoked'. In fact he always sounds insincere when he uses that sort of language. But in fairness, may be feels a pressure to talk/act that way.

Love him or hate him one of the best things about Bryceland is he comes across as himself, his personality, his language seem genuine. If not to everyone's tastes.

atlaz - Member
[b]Gee Atherton being boring recently...[/b]
What he [b]DOES[/b] is exciting, the persona he adopts is boring is what I think people are saying

I know what they are saying, and I also think it's rubbish. When he is racing he is very focussed as you have to be, but when he isn't, he is very normal. watch any Atherton project video and you can see he pisses about just like anyone in his off-time. There are loads of racers who also are not like Ratboy personality-wise and seem a bit stiff in comparison.

Minnaar, Barel, Vouilloz etc. Not stiff, just focussed.

Now, Sam Hill....he does come across as dull.... 😆

Gee is a very good rider, but I find him quite hard to like probably because he comes across as a bit of a robot / PR machine. It does seem like he's not really enjoying.

Guys like Peaty, Bryce, Brendon, Gracia etc all come across as really enjoying it and not being forced in the way the Gee does.

Fair play to the Athertons though for finding a branding opportunity (Red Bull, Jeep etc) and for Rachel for doing other things with it such as ladies riding days at places like Revo.

There's been a bit of discussion recently about social media vs racing results (escpecially amongst the women) & there's a few people out there who I follow on instagram who don't race (& if they do they certainly aren't troubling the podium) but they're building a following & getting free shiny, so.. who's to say which path is correct?

Nice wee insight into Bryceland's race routine. Laidback doesn't even come close, but Santa Cruz don't seem bothered

Sponsorship is complicated, in all honesty I don't expect stw to get it.

[quote=mikewsmith ]Sponsorship is complicated, in all honesty I don't expect stw to get it.

Yip. Basically this

[img] [/img]