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Sounds like you attended a standard sickness review meeting TJ and now being followed up by another with OH advice, again pretty standard stuff.
When I pointed out I had effectively been doing the same journey in reverse without any cover for commuting expenses for several years I was politely ignored
How hard did they laugh at you?
When I pointed out I had effectively been doing the same journey in reverse without any cover for commuting expenses for several years I was politely ignored
The difference is, you knew and agreed to those conditions when you took the job. Those who have been forcibly relocated did not. Some sort of transitionary relocation bonus seems fair in this situation.
This happened to us just over a year ago, our office relocated some 10 miles away. It made not a jot of difference to me as I live broadly equidistant from both, I'd just have a similar commute in a different direction. But there were loads of people going "but I walk to work!" and suchlike. HR ended up doing things like starting a car-sharing incentive, looking at working from home for some people, basically dealing with individuals on a case-by-case basis. A few people still left but we at least tried to offer support.
At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs TJ, try to step back a little and be more objective if you can. We do invest a fair amount of emotional capital in the job we do and this can sometimes be a negative in situations like this, especially towards the later stages of our careers.
Essentially, you care more about this than everyone else and it can colour your interactions in a negative way. Given that you are so close to being able to retire and with only a small financial penalty, look to the longer term, plan an exit and make sure you don't burn any bridges.
Be more Elsa; let it go.
Be more Elsa; let it go.
Elsa couldn’t let it go.
Despite the knights warning she crossed the Great Seal and paid the price.
Be more Indy
They probably hope youll resign or just not come back, you cant do the work required, others you work with will feel youre not capable of doing the job they do and putting extra work on them, and putting pressure on mangement , despite what they tell you.
Either leave or take up the job move.
Don't know about NHS but teaching in Scotland has some "rules" about being relocated. They usually offer travel expenses for a couple of years.
I'm with tj on the travel. If you've specifically taken a post or moved house to give a short commute then if you're to be moved by employer that should be taken into account (maybe that's a positive for public services).
Here you go TJ. I've found a job for you.
https://www.countryside-jobs.com/job/jan20/access-officer-scotways-0701-6
Health & safety is everyone’s responsibility - time to stop going to work
I’ve found a job for you.
No salary it seems.
I can't help you with HR, but I can tell you that I too tore my rotator cuff and I also have a physical job. Lots of crawling around, bending, lifting etc. A steroid injection had little effect, but then I went to see my wife's consultant (she's a sonographer) and he gave me three guided injections with ultrasound right into the dodgy bits. I watched the whole thing on the screen. It looked like belly pork. This was Friday. Saturday, my arm was in absolute agony. Sunday, it was like a new arm. Its been fine for two years now, I only get the odd twinge now and again. Sometimes it aches if I've had a long day on the bike for example. Might help you with your recovery if you've not already had such a thing. Good luck!
It's your choice to cycle to work and the employer is under no obligation to take that into account if they choose to offer alternative employment at a different location.
All employers I have worked for would regard a daily commute of 1 hour each way as reasonable.
I haven't looked at the legalities of what constitutes an offer of reasonable alternative employment but would be amazed if 5 miles e/w could be considered 'unreasonable'.
Does your employment contract have a specific clause which clearly covers what constitutes a 'reasonable' commute?
No salary it seems.
Remuneration: £12,360 per annum.
All employers I have worked for would regard a daily commute of 1 hour each way as reasonable.
I haven’t looked at the legalities of what constitutes an offer of reasonable alternative employment but would be amazed if 5 miles e/w could be considered ‘unreasonable’.
Does your employment contract have a specific clause which clearly covers what constitutes a ‘reasonable’ commute?
Reasnoble is open to interpretation.
The government guidance has the example of being asked to move abroad at 1 days notice!
Really it comes down to the role not the company, a senior manager on a six/seven figure sallary might be expected to relocate to another town, city or even country. Someone stacking shelves at a supermarket on the other hand you wouldnt expected to move stores.
I’ve seen a few guys over the years who were big personalities in their workplaces end their careers on a bit of a whimper, not quite get the big send off and cries of what will we do when you leave?…
I would have thought that would be the norm, very, very few people are irreplaceable, everyone else leaves and within a couple of months pretty much no one remembers what they did, the work just gets done by others.
Someone stacking shelves at a supermarket on the other hand you wouldnt expected to move stores.
When I worked in a supermarket stacking shelves in my teens I was occasionally required to work in other stores. I got bus fare.
When I worked in a supermarket stacking shelves in my teens I was occasionally required to work in other stores. I got bus fare.
Difference between an extra shift and being offered a job in a different town to avoid having to pay redundancy. They could (and i think they would have to if it was an option) of course offer it, but couldnt force it. I.e. its move or redundancy, not move or quit/be fired. Then its a tribunal to test if the employer was being reasnoble.
tinas - I think you're wrong and I stand by my earlier post.
Who is referring to working in a different town?
I'm sure TJ will be along soon to comment.
Have you come across the test of reasonableness?
In an employment context being asked to commute 5 miles each way (shock!) is eminently reasonable.
Hi guys - a few things to say
firstly I have been listening to what many of you have said about the commuting. Seems what I thought "reasonable" may well not be as as understood by the man on the clapham omnibus - or in this case the stw forum! I have taken that on board
I like my job and I am good at it. But I am done. 40 years of it and I really have very little more to give. This is obviously colouring my attitudes. I just can no longer cope well with being buggered about by poor management.
As to the meeting today? I suspect that in the pre meeting they had they actually changed what they intended to happen. Clearly they were taken aback when I pointed out that under the policies redeployment is not appropriate. " what about my budget" my line manager said and looked a little perturbed when I told her that is not my problem! I very much doubt they are used to folk who actually read and understand policies and who treat senior management as equals in discussion.
This meeting should have been 4 months ago when I first asked for it. " but we had no concrete information to act on " I was told - again pointing out there still is no concrete information left a bit of a silence.
I was very gentle with what I said - lots of "maybes" and "perhaps" and "with hindsight" but I was also very clear and firm and it was very interesting that they did not challenge me at all when told that in my reading of the policy, redeployment rather than a temporary relocation was not appropriate. I think they now realise they cannot push me in a direction I do not want to go. The senior manager has never seen this side of me before and my line manager looked quite uncomfortable at being challenged by me then not backed up by HR in her insistence redeployment was the right way to go when I said the policy clearly does not say this.
I am really quite angry that they sprung a report from the moving and handling folk at me that draws conclusions they are simply not able to make. I thought I was having a discussion and getting some advice a while back with the moving and handling folk not that they would be writing a formal report. Tomorrow I will be insisting that all the reports from the various professionals are given to me in full and unredacted form. I will then critique them.
Next step for them is this "case conference" with the same players as today plus the occupational health physician. Next step from me is to involve my health and safety rep and union and I am going to hammer them on this. I believe I am being put at risk by their attitudes and if I am injured again at work whilst working withing the guidelines given they will be in big shit.
I will also be very interested to see the minutes from today - I expect they will have to be corrected. I took my own notes. I also summed up at the end ( gently with a " ok - just to be clear its this, this and this from you and my position is this and next steps are this".)
I really do not know how this is going to pan out now. They clearly are very reluctant to offer me a temporary relocation ( buggers up their budgets). My line manager even said she had a shoulder injury from 8 years ago that still gives her pain. correct you silly mare - you never went and had a proper diagnosis or treatment and did no physio ( as she previously told me) and that I would have to accept a shoulder that would never be 100%. Well all the professionals I have seen have said I will make a full recovery in time. Its how long he timescale is that is the question.
I am very angry that we are no further forward. I will have to think long and hard about what I do next but the health and safety rep is going to be involved and I am likely to take a much tougher line in future - I can always compromise back from that hard line.
Just to add a layer of complication it looks like my other half is also going to be leaving her work under sickness - and she is in a very different place to me.
I have a few days before I am back at work to think things thru and may well be back here to bounce more things off you. It really had been very helpful to have had this discussion. ta folk.
I would have thought that would be the norm, very, very few people are irreplaceable, everyone else leaves and within a couple of months pretty much no one remembers what they did, the work just gets done by others
Aye, you're making the same point as me, though I'd go a little further, no one is irreplaceable.
I do not care about a big send off and "what will we do when you leave" I am just disappointed and upset that its looking like what is in the grand scheme of things a fairly minor injury is looking like its going to end my time at work. I am disgusted at the weakness of my senior manager who is leaving me hanging in limbo. I do not deal well with this sort of uncertainty. 50 shades of grey? My arse. There is only black and white! 🙂
” what about my budget” my line manager said and looked a little perturbed when I told her that is not my problem!
Beautiful, perfectly correct and exactly what I would have said.
The senior manager has never seen this side of me before
Clearly doesn't have an STW account. (-:
I believe I am being put at risk by their attitudes and if I am injured again at work whilst working withing the guidelines given they will be in big shit.
Pretty much what I alluded to a couple of pages back. They're playing with fire here.
I would have to accept a shoulder that would never be 100%
phrased differently, your job will leave you with a permanent 'disability'? (inverted commas because it might not technically be a disability particularly under new regs, but you know what i mean)
Is that not inviting some sort of claim?
You're right that their budget concerns are not yours.
Did you give them a deadline to produce their version of meeting minutes/notes? If not, give them a deadline - and make it a tight one.
As soon as you receive their version, send them yours and invite them to confirm, within a tight response deadline, that yours is an accurate, complete and true statement of the meeting. State that failure to respond within your deadline will be taken as confirmation that your version is accurate and complete.
I recall you did not have anyone in attendance on your side today; that would have been helpful in corroboration of your notes.
You have been a union rep but this time ensure the union represent you fully; you're the 'plaintiff', not the rep.
H&S representation at next meeting is good.
Get the most senior representation possible from the union; take their advice about drawing NHS trust senior management into this - assess possible downside.
Will the union put forward an employment law specialist on your behalf?
HR's only function is to protect employer's interests; in their view, employees are an irrelevance.
Be very clear about what you want from this and ensure your representatives are in no doubt about this. What is your optimal resolution? That is your starting point.
What is your optimal resolution? That is your starting point.
As I said at the meeting there are no good solutions that I can see. Relocation to an area with much less manual handling with no time limit on how long that is is probably the best but one that I really do not wish to take. the other would be early retirement with enhanced benefits ie pension contributions made up - but that is highly unlikely. Pension decisions are not made by the employer but by the pensions agency
I hope something can be resolved for you TJ.
Oh it will be. Worst comes to the worst I go off sick, use up all my remaining sick pay and then retire but that would leave me having to do agency work not NHS in the future to make up for my meager pension
I am quite touched by the expressions of good will - and had a good laugh at some of the suggestions - a professional dogwalker!
Surely the optimal solution is being redeployed to duties which will allow a full recovery - for however long that takes - and then a return to normal duties.
That must make sense for both parties?
C'mon TJ, don't roll over; get the union to fight for this on your behalf.
Nil illegitimi carborundum.
Frank - do not worry - I roll over for no one.
today was not what I expected. some pondering to do on tactics but me and my missus know more about this than my bosses which gives me the ability to play what is a poor hand well. Last time I was in a similar position I was entitled to a £400 payoff - I walked away with £7000 after 7 months on garden leave
Redeplyment is not a good idea - if a redeployment fails you are automatically sacked after 3 months - a temporary relocation is what is needed
OK - I used the wrong terminology on redeployment; temporary relocation is what it is.
Doesn't change my comments.
Unions have solicitors and in-house specialists; use them.
I'm assuming you've contacted the SPPA? https://pensions.gov.scot/nhs/retiring-nhs/ill-health-retirement
I've spoke a them quite a lot lately 18 "working" days to go they are generally helpful.
I have bruneep. they can only give forecasts a year ahead tho
Seems like if you handle the situation as well as you did today you can spin this out until your chosen retirement date. On full pay and staying where you are.
A few things from my past experiences:
1) Never let them know what your prime objectives are
2) Always go into a meeting with a prime objective and a fall-back position
3) Remember, whenever you have a choice of actions, always do what the enemy doesn't want you to do in preference to what you would like to (Sun Tzu)
4) This is no time for emotions
if I am injured again at work whilst working withing the guidelines given they will be in big shit.
and you will also have to take a share of that shit for doing something you know you shouldn’t be doing
Have a month off sick then go on holiday for eight weeks.
(-:
TJ - hope some sleep has helped crystallise your thoughts. Looking back at this thread, and thinking about some of the thoughts expresssed, are you happy with this staying in the public arena ? Anything in it that they could use ? Maybe worth getting it taken down ?
Start googling stress symptoms and then get a stress sicknote till retirement kicks in.
Riding your bike is somthing that can relive stress 🙂
I hope something can be resolved for you TJ.
(Which one's the tongue in cheek emogee?)
Be careful what you wish for, you do realise TJ being signed off sick until retirement will leave more time for squabbling on here? We'll have to change the forum name to tjtrackworld.
The best outcome for all concerned would be a shoulder treatment plan that involves both hands being cuffed behind your back.
Only kidding, hope all goes well.
Formal request put in for all the information they hold about this - they ambushed me with a report (I did not know about nor gave permission to be created) yesterday and I dispute some of the things they said was in the report.
Union contacted. Union rep I spoke to quite happy with what I have done so far.
I may of course just go completely radio rental and turn up for the next meeting with my pants on my head and a pencil up my nose.
Union full time officer now in contact. He is going to represent me. He is going to push hard on a few issues. Seems somewhat combative and knows all the individuals involved and the workplace.
I think that has just really put the cat amongst the pigeons. The bosses should not have tried to bullshit me and to ambush me. Tsk tsk
I don't think anything much will happen in the next week or two but I will update if / when anything interesting / funny happens
Once again - thanks for the advice
Good work so far tj
If I ever have any problems with my bosses can I ask you to represent me?
Of course! I am not terribly good at conciliation tho 😉
Re minutes etc, did you not record the whole meeting?
No
I went into the meeting being co operative and non confrontational. Openly recording does not go down well.
I may of course just go completely radio rental and turn up for the next meeting with my pants on my head and a pencil up my nose.
Don't forget to say "wibble."