Tell you what. I am a careful driver. I am quite skilled as have done a few track days and my advanced driving. My car is in great condition and the roads are super quiet. I think today i will drive at 90mph everywhere, i doubt anything will happen as there are less people to hit…….
Well I've been watching this discussion so far (though it feels awfully familiar at times) but that comment has just annoyed me and pushed me over the edge. It's outrageous and illustrates everything that's wrong with today's society. There are FEWER people to hit.
<applauds>
I picked Derbyshire just out of interest following their Roads Policing Unit tweets about “lycra-clad” and so on
I've done the same. Other than the contentious 'lycra-clad' comment, all looks very sensible to me.
https://twitter.com/DerbyshireRPU/status/1241732154167566346?s=20
https://twitter.com/DerbyshireRPU/status/1244239608352854017?s=20
Reading all this is like watching race car designers argue furiously over changes to the aero package in order to gain a 2% advantage over the course of a lap. If you questioned them they would quite rightly point out that 2% could easily be the difference between winning and losing. And they'd be right.
The problem is the car that they are trying to optimise has square wheels. If the wheels were round then what they are saying would make sense but because there is such a huge fundamental flaw in the design they are putting all their energy into a pointless exercise.
No matter how people take their exercise, whether they run around their garden or take a 300 mile round trip in their car or whether they are out for 1 hour or 10, compared to the simple act of going to the shops it is a minuscule contribution to the spread of the disease.
i think that the whole thing around this horrible situation is that we have all been handed the broad facts and been advised what to do - actual laws and red tape seems secondary compared to our assumed natural instinct to actually try to survive this thing as best we can.
we are currently being treated as grown ups with human rights and brains.
it's clearly up to each of us to work out what that means day to day. whats essential to one household is irrelevant to the next. all the ambiguity just makes it plain it about personal responsibility rather than operating within or outwith any law.
the one thing that seems ceertain is social distancing eventually halts the spread of the virus, and then ultimately leads to it being contained and destroyed. (some computer simulations on this really make sense).
im no big fan of the police or current goverment but ill be doing everything i can to not waste a second of their time until this is over...
Regarding ANPR, I am not sure that it gives instant readout of addresses, as I understand it all it does initially is compare reg. no. To database of vehicles of interest’
I assume the police could phone up to find the registered keeper.
Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology is used to help detect, deter and disrupt criminality at a local, force, regional and national level, including tackling travelling criminals, Organised Crime Groups and terrorists. ANPR provides lines of enquiry and evidence in the investigation of crime and is used by LEA throughout England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
How it works
As a vehicle passes an ANPR camera, its registration number is read and instantly checked against database records of vehicles of interest. Police officers can intercept and stop a vehicle, check it for evidence and, where necessary, make arrests. A record for all vehicles passing by a camera is stored, including those for vehicles that are not known to be of interest at the time of the read that may in appropriate circumstances be accessed for investigative purposes. The use of ANPR in this way has proved to be important in the detection of many offences, including locating stolen vehicles, tackling uninsured vehicle use and solving cases of terrorism, major and organised crime. It also allows officers’ attention to be drawn to offending vehicles whilst allowing law abiding drivers to go about their business unhindered.
Once the war was over everything went back to normal as it will in this case.
I think the reality following this will be mixed. Of course the most draconian laws will be repealed (or simply not renewed, as most of this legislation is time limited already). However some smaller elements may remain - pub licensing hours were kept after WW1, as was daylight savings time, possession of cocaine etc. Rationing lasted for many years after WW2 had ended. SOme of the things we retain will be largely positive, others less so, or not universally seen as positive by all sectors of society.
I assume the police could phone up to find the registered keeper.
Yeah... because they've nowt else important to be doing at the moment.
Alternatively, people could just do as quite reasonably requested and not drive unless its 'essential travel'?
Just imagine that? Bonkers, eh?
Part of the issue is that people are having to find new ways of exercising - everybody is out for exercise who isn’t normally.
Do you know how many millions of people have a gym membership? How many hundreds of thousand play football as a hobby? How many go to running clubs, gymnastics, dance classes, bike rides, who work manual jobs, work in restaurants clocking up thousands of steps a day, who now can’t do their normal things so they’re finding other permitted ways of exercising.
Some of that is going to be a learning curve in terms of them finding places to go where they can be socially responsible/distant etc and advice is all well and good but not you MUST all go home and never come here again, you MUST NOT drive anywhere....
That's rather counter productive as some police forces are now finding out. Especially when they've just made up those "rules" by themselves.
Rationing lasted for many years after WW2 had ended.
Because there wasn't enough food; young men to harvest/make it; ships and fuel to transport it; plus worries that because of the above a free market would drive up the prices of the essentials ridiculously and cause hardship to the poor.
Not because they thought it was a jolly good socialist idea.
Very unhelpful interview with a chap from https://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/ on the news earlier, picking apart the guidance vs. what is law. Only exercise once a day was his example, 'it's in the guidance but not in the law'.
Also made a big deal that 'leaving your house because you were in danger' isn't in the guidance.
Really? What are these people on? 🙄
Notice his web site majors on 'human rights and civil liberties' and 'Actions Against the Police and Public Authorities'.
Nice balanced view then.
Notice his web site majors on ‘human rights and civil liberties’ and ‘Actions Against the Police and Public Authorities’.
Human rights and civil liberties? They sound like a right bunch of bad'uns.
Seriously though, you're opposed to someone actually trying to clarify what the rules are when even the police don't seem to know?
If the government won't do it's job ie, laying out what is allowed and what isn't, then yes, other people are going to fill the vacuum
If the government won’t do it’s job ie, laying out what is allowed and what isn’t
I just don't think that's practical or feasible TBH. Do we really need pages of legalese at this point? Be careful what you wish for?
No matter how people take their exercise, whether they run around their garden or take a 300 mile round trip in their car or whether they are out for 1 hour or 10, compared to the simple act of going to the shops it is a minuscule contribution to the spread of the disease.
Firstly, we have to buy food to survive so they can't ban that.
Secondly, the 'exercise rule' is giving us something to think about and keeping us focused. Like the invasion preperations in 1940. Most of it was of no military use, but making concrete defences had a massive effect on morale and discipline. I suspect if they said "Go out whenever you want" we'd all carry on as normal. By saying 'go out only once a day' we're (almost) all taking it seriously - it's given us a common purpose.
The Po Po are absolutist by their very nature and have to be. You can't be discussing the merits of CROW legislation with pikey scumbags turning a village green into a landfill for example.
It's the fault of their seniors and pay masters for not taking the temperature of government properly. They deserve all the bad press they are getting at the moment for acting entirely outside their remit.
That retired supreme court Judge is right, if the polic do what they want instead of acting as an instrument of the law, that is moving towards a police state.
If people follow the guidance, there's no need for rules.
Weird, isn’t… treat us like adults with guidance and advice, and people seem to be literally begging for their rights to be restricted in law instead…
By all means, go out and stretch the law to breaking point, find your own little gaps in the law that mean you can do whatever you want, even if it risks spreading the virus and pushing the health service and other public services to breaking point… but if that results in new highly restrictive laws and checks as has happened in other countries, we won’t thank you, and neither will the police and army that then have to spend so much time enforcing it. Help yourselves. Help the police (que Adam Buxton). Help the doctors. Help the nurses. Help all the emergency services. Don’t drive out to get your exercise.
People saying that the police advising people to go home during a national emegency, to prevent the spread of a virus, and dishing out a couple of 30 quid fines constitutes the estblishment of a police state really do need to get a ****ing grip and maybe google what a real police state actually looks like
For example, from yesterdays news. You might have missed it while bleating on about Derbyshire now being like North Korea....
Hungary passes law that will let Orbán rule by decree
Hungary’s parliament has passed a new set of coronavirus measures that includes jail terms for spreading misinformation and gives no clear time limit to a state of emergency that allows the nationalist prime minister, Viktor Orbán, to rule by decree.
Having a read of that should lend some much-needed perspective for the tinfoil helmet lot
Weird, isn’t… treat us like adults with guidance and advice, and people seem to be literally begging for their rights to be restricted in law instead…
Exactly. The guidance is there (now backed with some police advice/enforcement), use common sense and do your bit. No need to ask here if it's OK to do x or push for an answer from the government of what applies in your exact situation.
I just don’t think that’s practical or feasible TBH. Do we really need pages of legalese at this point? Be careful what you wish for?
So then who decides what is and isn't allowed. Individual forces? Individual officers? I would be careful what you wish for, tbh.
Firstly, we have to buy food to survive so they can’t ban that.
No, but if we really wanted to it could be policed a lot more strictly than it is. Face to be covered while in the shops, enforced hand washing before entering, limited number of people at a time, strictly enforced 2m separation, you touch it you bought it, designated shops and/or hours for workers at risk of infection, etc.
Any of these measures would do far more to limit the spread than any limitation on outdoor activity.
Secondly, the ‘exercise rule’ is giving us something to think about and keeping us focused.
So you agree it's not really going to limit the spread much compared to shopping? It's more about getting people in the right mindset.
If so then I agree with the effect it has but it seems to be causing so much anguish I would say it's counter-productive.
So you agree it’s not really going to limit the spread much compared to shopping?
By all means don’t go shopping, if you can manage that. We haven’t for two weeks now, and won’t be for another two. Not everyone can manage that. Just about everyone can manage not driving to get exercise.
Advice is to shop as little as possible. Once a week maximum mentioned by gov ministers a few times.
Can I raise a practicle question at this point...
As parliament is no longer sitting, and our PM is self-isolating due to actually having the virus, how do you propose this new sweeping, draconion legislation, instigating the curtailing of freedoms not seen since the second world war, is to be passed into law?
I'm all ears
And then we can have a discussion about how you're then going to enforce it.
So then who decides what is and isn’t allowed. Individual forces? Individual officers?
You do initially based on the guidance. And if your decision looks questionable you might get a tap on the shoulder at which point you can calmly explain your interpretation. Ultimately (if you're being ridiculous about it IMO) the courts decide.
he Po Po are absolutist by their very nature and have to be. You can’t be discussing the merits of CROW legislation with pikey scumbags turning a village green into a landfill for example.
It’s the fault of their seniors and pay masters for not taking the temperature of government properly. They deserve all the bad press they are getting at the moment for acting entirely outside their remit.
That retired supreme court Judge is right, if the polic do what they want instead of acting as an instrument of the law, that is moving towards a police state.
Not at all. we have an amazing thing called discretion. For example, if I were to arrest every single potential Rapper who swore at me (under the Public Order Act) I would be a very busy chappie indeed.
Its not Pikey -Its Travelling Community. That's not nice
If we acted outside of our remit we could be investigated by the IOPC or our Professional Standards. So we don't.
By all means don’t go shopping, if you can manage that. We haven’t for two weeks now, and won’t be for another two. Not everyone can manage that. Just about everyone can manage not driving to get exercise.
Are you only reading half of what I write on purpose or by accident?
By the way, I'm not saying everyone should stick the bike on the car and head for the nearest trail centre, just that we should keep things in perspective and continually question the guidelines.
I've seen pages and pages about driving but very little about more that could be done to limit the spread in shops using measures I suggested earlier. You have to ask yourself why people have decided to get so worked up over this particular issue.
Edit: When I say question the guidelines, I mean in a rational way. Is this guideline actually going to limit the spread or not? Could it be altered to be more effective? If we focus all our collective energy on this guideline are we missing something more fundamental that could be done?
And yes, part of that rational questioning is, could these measures lead to problems further down the road?
If you feel that I need to be measured for a tin foil hat the so be it.
No, but if we really wanted to it could be policed a lot more strictly than it is. Face to be covered while in the shops, enforced hand washing before entering, limited number of people at a time, strictly enforced 2m separation, you touch it you bought it, designated shops and/or hours for workers at risk of infection, etc.
If people can't handle a simple recommendation like 'Only go out once' how the hell are they going to follow your list of 9 items that you've ended with 'etc' which suggests you have more in mind!
The advice is to avoid shopping where possible anyway. Shop infrequently and have delivery where possible so if you're shopping more than you need, stop.
I’ve seen pages and pages about driving but very little about more that could be done to limit the spread in shops using measures I suggested earlier.
Over on retailtrackworld they might be doing just what you suggest.
Or perhaps on another thread.
Not really shaming when you can’t make them out.
Rubbish. The guy stood up in the top left photo is quite clearly MC Hammer
He’s just there to remind people what they can and can’t touch.
If people can’t handle a simple recommendation like ‘Only go out once’ how the hell are they going to follow your list of 9 items that you’ve ended with ‘etc’ which suggests you have more in mind!
It sounds difficult so we shouldn't even try?
This what Macclesfield police were doing at the weekend. The crazy thing I'm seeing, the same people joining in the outrage about the folk driving up to the forest are themselves running up to the forest are contributing to the perceived problem. As if been fit enough to run up rather than drive up gives you a free pass.
My issue I've been running 5k every other day with the kids around the block, this put us in far more contact with folks than driving 1 mile to the edge of town and running across the open countryside in the opposite direction to the peak district that no one hardly goes to.
One thing thats wound me up is we have run onto the road or into a drive whenever we've met someone and that includes my 8-year-old and only about 1 in 10 people thank us. People are absolute ...
He’s just there to remind people what they can and can’t touch.
Oh very good sir!
Genius.
Having a read of that should lend some much-needed perspective for the tinfoil helmet lot
One of the reasons we don't have that kind of action here is that people like Sumption speak up at the first sign of those in positions of power overstepping the mark.
You have to ask yourself why people have decided to get so worked up over this particular issue.
Cause of hordes of people going to the usual well known spots, specific beaches, sea side towns, hills etc etc..
It's not like the shout against people driving came out of of a vacuum, it started cause people were being daft.
Quite entertaining watching binners lapse into authoritarianism so easily. I think you need to head back to the lakes to relax - unless you’ve been there too recently. 😀
One of the reasons we don’t have that kind of action here is that people like Sumption speak up at the first sign of those in positions of power overstepping the mark.
Erm... ok comrade..
Or perhaps because we have a country with policing by consent, where the broadly libertarian, socially liberal government has no interest in establishing a police state, as proven by the present reluctence to legislate, relying on advice instead, even in the face of continued bell-endery by a vocal, whiny, self-entitled minority
There really are a lot of virtue signalling, sanctimonious bellends on this forum aren’t there?
Government advice does not sanction some elements of the police to live out their fantasies of being part of the Stasi in East Germany.
It’s worth remembering that Orwell's 1984 was inspired by the measures put into place in the U.K. during WW2, not just the Soviet Union, as many people think.
JP
live out their fantasies of being part of the Stasi in East Germany
Do you have an example of this happening?
Cause of hordes of people going to the usual well known spots, specific beaches, sea side towns, hills etc etc..
I worry about a McNamara fallacy. As OOB said, measuring how people do their shopping is going to be very difficult, almost impossible.
Measuring whether people are driving or not is very easy. Slightly more difficult but still easier than measuring how people are shopping is measuring how long people are out of the house for.
I'm worried that this fixation on how people exercise is focusing on the wrong thing.
The first step is to measure whatever can be easily measured. This is OK as far as it goes. The second step is to disregard that which can't be easily measured or to give it an arbitrary quantitative value. This is artificial and misleading. The third step is to presume that what can't be measured easily really isn't important. This is blindness. The fourth step is to say that what can't be easily measured really doesn't exist. This is suicide.
— Daniel Yankelovich, "Corporate Priorities: A continuing study of the new demands on business" (1972).
A fixation on things that can be measured by both the general public and the authorities is a sure fire way of draconian measures being implemented. That's why I think everyone should chill out a bit.
Did the Stasi issue a lot of 30 quid fines too?
i have to confess that I thought they were a tad more draconiam than that
Every day's a school day eh?
Erm… ok comrade..
I do have to admire your ability to turn almost every comment someone makes into some sort of aggressively worded straw man.
Suggesting the police not exceed their powers and subjecting them to scrutiny is not tinfoil hattery or communism. It is in fact a key component of policing by consent to use your own words.
One thing thats wound me up is we have run onto the road or into a drive whenever we’ve met someone and only about 1 in 10 people thank us.
Move somewhere nicer.
Almost everyone I meet running/cycling/walking gives everyone else a massive wide berth and there's almost always a smile and some mutual thanks.
Sounds like a load of paranoid claptrap with no basis in reality to me
