Not at all. we have an amazing thing called discretion.
which has been completely disabused in these well documented cases recently.
If we acted outside of our remit we could be investigated by the IOPC or our Professional Standards. So we don’t.
If you didn't, there would be no need for the IOPC to exist. We'll see on these well documented cases over the last few days whether this will end that way. Fines with no breach of the law perhaps?
Yeah… because they’ve nowt else important to be doing at the moment.
Alternatively, people could just do as quite reasonably requested and not drive unless its ‘essential travel’?
Couldn’t agree more. I was just pointing out that ANPR isn’t as effective to identify people a long way from home as suggested.
If Lord Sumption had gone on the radio and simply said that Derbyshire Police had misinterpreted what they could/couldn’t or should/shouldn’t be doing, and had thereby made a mistake, then I’d think fair enough and listen to him.
When he starts calling them a disgrace, incorrectly claiming that they are “wrecking beauty spots” and saying that they’ve “shamed our policing traditions”, then I think he’s guilty of the same hysteria he complains about later in the report.
He knows fine well the police are trying their best to do the right thing, even if some places have got it wrong, and he could give his opinion in a fair way without being a melodramatic prick about it.
The level of paranoia on the virus threads at the moment is becoming a bit scary, everyone seems to just turn it up to 11 the minute people don't agree with them
Sounds like a load of paranoid claptrap with no basis in reality to me
Anything in particular or just the STW forum in general?
Because if that's the case I agree.
If you didn’t , there would be no need for the IOPC to exist
........and if we didn't have burglars we wouldn't need locks.
FFS give me strength 🙄
Anything in particular or just the STW forum in general?
A lot of it, but this specifically:
Suggesting the police not exceed their powers and subjecting them to scrutiny is not tinfoil hattery or communism. It is in fact a key component of policing by consent to use your own words.
People need to get a grip and re-connect with some recognisable semblance of reality. They've just demonstrated in Hungary what a proper authoritarian regime does in a situation like this, giving themselves sweeping powers to do what the **** they like.
Meanwhile the Derbyshire police have posted something on social media to dissuade people from carrying on with activites that could put lives at risk, and dished a couple of minor fines out to those who refuse to cooperate
Its hardly the final scenes of The Wall, is it?
When binners is the voice of reason, we all need to take a step back and calm down.
But well said binners! 👍
even in the face of continued bell-endery by a vocal, whiny, self-entitled minority
Sounds like the STW forum.
jjprestridge
There really are a lot of virtue signalling, sanctimonious bellends on this forum aren’t there?
The STWASI? 🙂
The point is the exercise "rules" are guidance not absolute law, and that was a wise decision by the govt. It's not possible to have a single law that would make sense applied uniformly between densely packed city and the wide open lands of the countryside.
i.e. it's leaving it to our judgement. We all know about the 2 metre rule, and my observation when out walking the dog is everyone is punctilious about it to the extent it's more like 5 metres.
Now maybe some dickheads are doing it differently and it's fair enough to pour opprobrium on them, but that's not the majority of people who are exercising their judgement and behaving with discretion - which is exactly the point of guidance.
And if the police aren't getting it right straight off the bat, that's not ground for criticism in my book. They are acting in good faith and what they see as our best interests.
This what Macclesfield police were doing at the weekend. The crazy thing I’m seeing, the same people joining in the outrage about the folk driving up to the forest are themselves running up to the forest are contributing to the perceived problem. As if been fit enough to run up rather than drive up gives you a free pass.
My issue I’ve been running 5k every other day with the kids around the block, this put us in far more contact with folks than driving 1 mile to the edge of town and running across the open countryside
The trouble is, as you posted, people lack imagination. If you say "you can drive 30min to somewhere remote", they'll all drive to the same car park, which is inevitably considerably smaller than the housing estate they were all claiming was too overcrowded to maintain social distancing whilst on a walk.
tbh, in general I think things have gone really well regarding the lockdown. It's been a slow process, correctly so imo, but we are largely there now, few existing issues.
Lets take a look at how not to do it for a wee bit of perspective!
Coronavirus: India's pandemic lockdown turns into a human tragedy
Ok, I’m frontline “Po Po”, in a so called “critical role”, and I have been for 20 years. I am also human; I have a son who has an immunosuppressive genetic condition & I am asthmatic and 49 years old with moderately high blood pressure.
I have no PPE whatsoever to deal with groups of people. Over the past couple of nights shifts I have personally been sent to about 5 ASB jobs, which were actually noisy house parties, or “Corona parties” as I heard one person call them. I have been met with drunken abuse by people telling me to **** off and do some real work. One fella I stopped driving his car at 115mph on quiet roads thought it was an essential journey to collect his partner from their address and transport him to his address. Having given the driver some advice the response from the partner was “it’s all a ****ing joke though isn’t it... I mean, I’ve got Crohn’s disease”. A comment accompanied with a knowing look. I’ve no idea what this fella was implying but advice was repeated and they were sent on their way.
Earlier that same night I stopped a fella in a car who’d gone to collect his girlfriend - she’d fell out with her parents so had stormed out in a huff. He thought that was an essential journey... that he had no licence or insurance was not even a concern to him. This man was physically and mentally incapable of maintain a 2 metre gap. He was coughing his balls off every 2 minutes and had to be instructed in no uncertain terms, using seemingly the only words and phrases he understood, to stay away from me (very Anglo-Saxon words and phrases).
I have yet to issue one penalty notice using any new powers. Like virtually every colleague I would prefer to empathise with folk who’re going out of their minds with worry and boredom, beside which - to issue these notices I have to get quite close to people. I’d rather use my discretion, reason with people, and hopefully educate them.
My colleagues and I are just as concerned about our welfare, and that of our families as the next person. My examples above are a small amount from one person - now multiply this by as many bobbies as are on duty at any time & you begin to understand the people who we’re trying our best to deal with. This is as well as (not instead of) the usual criminality that happens every day, day in day out.
When voicing my concerns, the advice by my “superiors” has been “its business as usual, so battle on”. The solution for my personal concerns was to fill out a lengthy & complex special circumstances form, which is actually a permission form for me to take unpaid parental leave. I can’t afford to take unpaid leave.
So, every day I’m going to work, self-managing who I’m in physical proximity with, then going home to my family who are in lockdown. I’m travelling in different clothes to and from work then stripping off outside before getting in the shower, before even seeing any of my family. Tensions are high. Someone on my shift is now living in his caravan on his drive because he has to avoid contact with his wife and daughter who is deemed vulnerable. Another is on an air bed in his garage, and a colleague who also runs a charity that feeds the homeless has been told to cease all charitable work so that he remains fit for his job as a Police Officer. This is from the same organisation who gave us kitchen spray to clean the inside of our vehicles, and doesn’t provide hot water in the changing rooms to go with the pointless anti-bacterial hand wash that been placed next to every sink.
Please understand that what you’re seeing on the news about overzealous use of new powers are simply scandalising something that, on the scale of things, isn’t actually much of an issue. Some reporters are bored of Corona already, and are simply looking for a different angle on the whole thing.
Thanks for your service @mildred, and thanks for sharing all that on STW.
Thanks for carrying on Mildred. We owe you.
Not reading seven pages so have skimmed some. I’m about as anti authoritarian as they come, but I’m all for giving them all the power they need. There are a lot of people out there that seem to have a hard time grasping rule number one and they are making life unnecessarily difficult for everyone. Don’t be a dick, don’t travel unless absolutely necessary and exercise as close to home as possible.
Some people think they’re special. They are, but not in the birthday way
Good post MIldred! Thanks.
On driving - I haven't read every post but some folk do not seem to understand this. The further you travel the greater risk of passing the virus on / spreading it. BY driving you will need fuel at some pont. fuel pumps have been identified as significant means of infection.
The whole object of the lockdown is to reduce infection rates as much as possible. The guidance allows for daily exercise as its recognised that this is essential to mental and physical health. Driving is not. Yes a walk around your town might not be as nice a bit of exercise - but it fulfills the same role and because you are not travelling out of your area it is not as high risk as driving to another area
its very simple, its good advice, its based upon good science. Please follow it
Thanks Mildred - it's not possible to summarise your post as it's all so utterly relevant.
You have my complete support right now.
Hey binners, sorry I didn't reply to you sooner but I've been out on my bike for a couple of hours. 🙂
It's pretty clear you can't engage with this stuff on a rational basis and would rather just rant, foam and exaggerate what others are saying. I'm not really into that so I'll just leave you to it.
Interesting read! Purely as a discussion point. If you drive 30mins out to ride. Drive alone, don't stop anywhere, ride alone on easy trails, don't have to open any gates etc, see only 15 or so people over a few hours at safe distance....how does that help with spreading the virus ( and assuming you have already had it)? In my view my local park where I see over 300 people in 40 mins and where most people are within 2m of each other is far greater re risk of spreading the big C.
Which bit of spread do people not get? If you visit an area, you risk spreading the virus to that area, and to the areas that other visitors come from. STAY THE **** AT HOME!
On Sunday I drove to the local farm shop, that’s just a bit too far to walk to, then drove on to Biddestone, a village about four miles away, parked up and went for a walk, lasting roughly two hours.
Now, when I went shopping on Saturday, I covered about two miles, I reckon I passed close to twenty-odd people, not including those in the shops.
On my two hour walk on Sunday, on which I covered nearly four miles, I met four people, saw two people jogging and two walked past me as I was enjoying a packed lunch and flask of tea.
While I take on board the above comment, there is a huge area not far from where I live now, mostly within five miles, which I know intimately, and where I know for a fact I will meet a small fraction of the people I’ll pass close to just walking within a mile of my home, plus, while I’m in my car, I’m isolated from everyone!
It’s not just good for my general health to get out of doors, it’s good for my mental health to be as far as I can get from people!
Another thing that absolutely staggered me, because it’s just so thoughtless, is councils taping off park benches to stop people sitting on them! WTAF? There will be many people, of limited mobility, and who may not even have a garden worth a damn, will want to get out for a stroll, and who will, more than likely, need to stop now and then to catch their breath and take the weight off of damaged joints. I know I do, so deliberately taping off park benches is a real dick move!
so deliberately taping off park benches is a real dick move!
Is that not to prevent people from sitting there and touching (leaving virus on it) TBH when I am out I am touching nothing or sitting down on anything someone else has sat on.
I assume the police could phone up to find the registered keeper.
Yeah… because they’ve nowt else important to be doing at the moment.
Hmmm, you seem to be unaware of the fact that modern police cars are equipped with cameras, computers and fast mobile data links that enable them to check ownership and address of any car that’s in front of them. This is something they do all the damned time! Maybe you’re still using a dumb phone and a computer that’s on dialup running MS-DOS...
Is that not to prevent people from sitting there and touching (leaving virus on it) TBH when I am out I am touching nothing or sitting down on anything someone else has sat on.
I believe so, but frankly it’s a pointless exercise because everyone comes into contact with things that others could have touched, in which case, follow the advice, don’t touch your face, and wash your hands with soap and water.
live out their fantasies of being part of the Stasi in East Germany
Do you have an example of this happening?
I read it on a placard once, so it must be true......
then drove on to Biddestone, a village about four miles away, parked up and went for a walk
Did the people of Biddestone not cross your mind, even once? Not even the old folk there?
I know I do, so deliberately taping off park benches is a real dick move!
Is that not to prevent people from sitting there and touching (leaving virus on it) TBH when I am out I am touching nothing or sitting down on anything someone else has sat on.
I believe so, but frankly it’s a pointless exercise because everyone comes into contact with things that others could have touched, in which case, follow the advice, don’t touch your face, and wash your hands with soap and water.
From park bench to the sink at home, without ever touching your face, or touching anything you may touch again after you’ve washed your hands. You sir, are amazing. Teach the old folk your faultless approach, and they’ll all be fine.
The Police are another example of a public service being run down to satisfy austerity. Run down to the bare minimum and even then a bare minimum to do their job in normal circumstances.
Then along comes something unusual and the new powers are rushed out with little practical consideration how they will actually use them.
Joris will get his little VE Day moment when life gets back to some form of reality, but remember that Churchill was waving at crowds on VE Day and out of office by VJ Day.
When the time is right, we all need to remember who ran the public services into the ground most.
posted in the countryside thread but relevant here too:
Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise, and that blanket checks were disproportionate, in a bid to quell a row about heavy-handed enforcement of the coronavirus lockdown.
It says officers can use the road traffic act to stop vehicles for any reason, and this could lead to offences under the coronavirus act being detected.
But then adds: “Use your judgment and common sense; for example, people will want to exercise locally and may need to travel to do so, we don’t want the public sanctioned for travelling a reasonable distance to exercise. Road checks on every vehicle is equally disproportionate.
“We should reserve enforcement only for individuals who have not responded to engage, explain, and encourage, where public health is at risk,”
You can be annoyed at people not social distancing whilst also being concerned about new rules being rushed through...
These things are not mutually exclusive.
So poor old Mrs Miggins goes out and gets stopped by the fuzz. She gets questioned by a very stern officer and told to only get the essentials.
Do you not see this as part of the problem? Mrs Miggins is probably confused, scared, and a bit thick. A “stern” approach may well get her to go home. A more understanding attitude may discover why she’s out by herself in the first place.
Even the most junior police officer should be capable of adapting their attitude depending on whom they’re facing, and the intransigence of some members of the police to accept that there may be more than one way to do their job is part of the problem.
Criticising any public service on here is a recipe for disaster but you are human beings doing a job and some of you will be better at it than others. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn from criticism and seek to improve, even under difficult circumstances.
Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise
Relying the word 'reasonable' is not helpful to officers trying to tell, persuade or cajole idiots into changing their behaviour. One man's reasonable is five minutes down the road, another's is driving from Manchester to the Lakes.
Set a limit, however arbitrary, and communicate it properly to the public.
"Reasonable" is definable. For example driving past other suitable places to get there would not be reasonable. Driving to the edge of the town or city is reasonable, driving to another town is not. A number of miles distance would be simpler but it really isn't a one size fits all situation.
Also police should have a bit if discretion in these situation, its just that so far the parameters have been a bit vague
Or perhaps because we have a country with policing by consent, where the broadly libertarian, socially liberal government has no interest in establishing a police state, as proven by the present reluctence to legislate, relying on advice instead, even in the face of continued bell-endery by a vocal, whiny, self-entitled minority
+1
The old adage of "don't be a dick" applies to everyone, this pandemic requires a national response which needs people to move less, this includes driving, the drive to an isolated place is traffic, which encourages more traffic and we divide into the tutters, the hysterics, the gamers and the idiots
Policing it is difficult, it's done by people with as complex lives as all of us have, although my eyebrow was raised by sending someone on their way after 115 mph!!!
Half the problem is the media is focused on simple issues they understand and are essentially click bait
In my experience when dealing with officers of the law, I find adopting the "don't be a dick" rule tends to take the sting out of the situation on both sides.
I agree it should be clearly and simply defined, and if that prevents some activities which are low-risk, so be it, otherwise the police will end up endlessly embroiled in arguments with people rather than just saying: 'The limit defined by law is x miles, turn around and bugger off home'.
When do we all go to the beach then?
Everything Derbyshire police did fit just fine with this new “guidance”, but now the people their officers speak to will be throwing it back in their face. Issuing guidance to the public to listen to the police would have been more useful.
Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise
Given that, can I:
- Carry my Kayak 400m to the river?
- Walk or Cycle 2 miles to take the boat out for a days exercise sailing?
- Cycle 6 miles to the beach for a day exercise in the fresh air on the beach?
What if I prefer to go by car to the last two?
Being able to travel to exercise allows pretty much *everything* I want to do. Basically I get my old life back but with WFH. Sweet.
People saying that the police advising people to go home during a national emegency, to prevent the spread of a virus, and dishing out a couple of 30 quid fines constitutes the estblishment of a police state really do need to get a ****ing grip and maybe google what a real police state actually looks like
Alternatively the adage "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" may be what stops us descending to Hungary's level.
Similarly when called by a judge on your incorrect implementation of the law, don't insist you were right. Be humble and learn (looking at you Peter Goodman). Policing by consent is threatened by this and the forces would soon grumble if the general public withdrew consent and cooperation.
Carry my Kayak 400m to the river?
– Walk or Cycle 2 miles to take the boat out for a days exercise sailing?
– Cycle 6 miles to the beach for a day exercise in the fresh air on the beach?
'Following the announcement from the Prime Minister (8.30pm, 23 March 2020) regarding the UK’s response to the coronavirus crisis, we are asking leisure boaters to stop all non-essential travel and not to visit their boats if they do not live aboard permanently.'
Not sure what 'day exercise' you were planning on the beach?
I've read the article and the following:
Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise
Is the words of the Newspaper. Not the advice.
At no point does the advice say the police won't sanction people for traveling to exercise. Reads to me like he's saying they won't always or might not.
“Use your judgment and common sense; for example, people will want to exercise locally and may need to travel to do so, we don’t want the public sanctioned for travelling a reasonable distance to exercise. Road checks on every vehicle is equally disproportionate.We should reserve enforcement only for individuals who have not responded to engage, explain, and encourage, where public health is at risk,”
I'd still be interested in what people think about my three questions. (Mainly the first really.)
‘Following the announcement from the Prime Minister (8.30pm, 23 March 2020) regarding the UK’s response to the coronavirus crisis, we are asking leisure boaters to stop all non-essential travel and not to visit their boats if they do not live aboard permanently.’
Not sure what ‘day exercise’ you were planning on the beach?
Largely academic since nobody is saying you can travel to exercise without fear of sanction except one newspaper so sadly the option isn't there for me. 🙁
...but since you post.
Your first statement refers to inland waterways. (I think)
The second: I reckon I (and my kids) burn more calories in a day at the beach than any other activity I/we do, the beach involves relentless activity. Body Boarding, Kayaking, Non-stop running about and chasing. (Doesn't apply to me but lots of people walking and walking dogs on the beach too, which counts as exercise.)
But, as I say, academic, because it doesn't meet the 'need' test the law sets AFAIC because I can get exercise without travelling.
Yesterday Derbyshire Police's roads unit used an armed drone strike to take out a car heading into the Peak District National Park. Obviously they've tried to paint it as a simple road traffic accident, but...
https://twitter.com/DerbyshireRPU/status/1244945610031214602
…but since you post.
Your first statement refers to inland waterways. (I think)
I reckon I (and my kids) burn more calories in a day at the beach than any other activity I/we do, the beach involves relentless activity.
RYA has made similar statements and suspended all training and events. Don't know your situation, just use common sense, but my gut feel is that's pushing it. And if you mean you'd like to put kayaks on the roofrack and drive to the beach, high chance you'll get pulled over IMO.
