Really? Just be careful, because if martial law is invoked it may be quite difficult to undo:
You reckon? The entire armed forces of the Uk would fit in a Football Stadium and many of them are overseas. In spite of all their equipment I doubt they could hold their own against 60 million people. The army has 227 tanks I bet not many of them are in the UK right now - I reckon the USA, and various European nations would cheerfully blow them all up in a day to help us regain control.
...and that assumes the Army want to turn the uk into a police state. I have a few friends who are army officers, I'm sure you do to. Get the feeling they want to end democracy and take over?
So the Police, then? We have plenty of Policemen posting on here. Get the feeling they're itching to take over?
We postponed elections in WW2 and things reverted right back to normal at the appropriate time. These extreme laws will go the second the crisis is over. The state don't have the desire or the capability to do anything else.
Yes. Think. Drive to places for exercise and you will counteract the efforts being made by everyone else, including the police, to slow the spread.
Last night I drove 8k, parked my car in a deserted car park and ran up a wee hill with no one else on it. Even if there were other people the tracks are wide enough to give 2m distance and there are no gates to open that might spread the virus through contact. If the car park had been busy I was ready to turn around and go home.
Meanwhile, the places I could have gone from the door were busy, involve opening gates and have narrow paths which make 2m distance very difficult.
I accept that this is an unnecessary journey but I'd like to know how it counteracts efforts to slow the spread.
Maybe they could have drones with numberplate recognition technology like on Hunted, which could deploy stngers to take out any vehicles outside a certain range of their homes without authorisation?
This is another problem that self-driving cars will solve. Siri will just refuse to drive you anywhere except Budgens.
To be fair, there is a sequence of numbers and letters on it which gives you a fair idea where it normally lives.
Until the UK adopts a similar system to Switzerland, where every canton has its own registration office and when cars are bought on one canton and moved to another it has a new reg. for that canton, this is not really going to help.
For example, I bought my car in Swansea so has a CP prefix, but I live in Herefordshire which should have a VX or VN prefix. On our road there are LB, SH,AJ, LX, MK, GL prefixes. Are we going to be stopped simply because of our plates?
They drove a couple of miles to Peak, parked on edge of road and walked around a slightly unusual path / woodland track. They saw one person.
YES, because few other people are being dicks! If everyone else behaved like your mate it would be heaving and they'd be spreading the virus like crazy.
It's like chucking you MCDonalds packaging out of your car window. If one person does it it probably doesn't matter that much. When thousands of people do it we end up with crap everywhere.
Most of all if it's only a couple of miles WALK IT!
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A black hole sucks time and matter out of the universe, a white hole returns it
Until the UK adopts a similar system to Switzerland, where every canton has its own registration office and when cars are bought on one canton and moved to another it has a new reg. for that canton, this is not really going to help.
Yes, but I suspect that they can use ANPR to spit out registered keeper addresses fairly efficiently.
Yes, but I suspect that they can use ANPR to spit out registered keeper addresses fairly efficiently
I was perhaps also thinking of the self-appointed folk who wish to comment about people driving further than they think appropriate.
powers hastily drawn and interpreted by the Police in the way they think that a Govt would like.
What Lord Rod Hull doesn’t mention is that with any new legislation, it’s not just the police that are left to try and interpret how it should be used, it’s the courts as well. There may (or may not) be guidelines but they never cover every situation. It’s only when cases get to court that this interpretation is tested by legal argument and so on, and one factor the court considers is what was the government’s intention when it wrote the legislation. So if the courts consider the governments intentions when making rulings and case law and so on, it’s not in principle much different to the police trying to understand what the government’s intention is when they start using new legislation. The correct interpretation is only established down the line once courts have ruled on it.
Less frothing, more thinking.
Or Less listening, more thinking it doesn't apply to you
thinking of the self-appointed folk who wish to comment about people driving further than they think appropriate.
The government?
The police?
Do you know who I am?
I'm special
The rules are there for other people
People driving a couple of miles to the spot from all directions gives a pretty wide spread...
Only if they get close enough to each other to pass the virus on, in which case, it would / should fail the definition of a "quiet spot".
What you're arguing is that it is better to take exercise in a busy street where it's difficult to maintain social distancing than in a quiet spot, local to your house where there is almost no risk of transmission. The whole car thing is irrelevant.
So if the courts consider the governments intentions when making rulings and case law and so on, it’s not in principle much different to the police trying to understand what the government’s intention is when they start using new legislation.
but even the government don't have a common position on this. Or at least if they do, they haven't communicated it (well enough)
Putting dye in lakes and using drones in such a manner is unacceptable no matter what.
Kind of agree. I have no way of knowing whether folk videod had walked from their house or driven in. Similarly, dye in lakes is just a weird thing to do that can't really be justified.
This doesn't mean I don't think it's understandable that people have reacted this way, nor that I think people should ignore the advice. I don't think anyone's saying that. And the police are free to have a word with people, which at this point is probably as effective as anything else (particularly as the first fine is £30.)
@kelvin is correct. If you need laws to tell you what is right then you're a muppet.
The true anarchist is law-abiding, because he doesn't need laws to act correctly in the first place - thus negating the need for the x-archy in the first place.
Just to give you some perspective of the types of folk I have been dealing with recently - ( I am sure my fellow cops will agree)
We don't deal with the great british public, normally.
We deal with people who call the cops because they have had an argument over the TV remote
we deal with people who call 999 because Maccy D's is shut
We deal with people who leave a toddler in charge of a baby whilst they go out shopping
We deal with people who go out every 5 minutes because cigarettes are essentials
We deal with the two drug dealers stopped out and about delivering their stash
We deal with the local feral youths who still think hanging around in gangs of 6 or 7 is still ok.
We deal with the two youths who are carrying knives in the above group.
If the public break the (lockdown)rules they will be dealt with, usually with a warning or a ticket.
If the local drug dealer/crime lord/pickpocket/thief whatever wont accept the social distancing rules/lockdown rules- because lets face it- they are such law abiding citizens. then they will be arrested. simples.
Police state. Nope
Martial Law. Wont happen. Unless the poop has really really hit the fan.
Rules to keep everyone safe. Oh yes.
What you’re arguing is that it is better to take exercise in a busy street where it’s difficult to maintain social distancing than in a quiet spot, local to your house where there is almost no risk of transmission.
Almost. What people are arguing is that's it's better for us all to follow the simple guidelines. If we do that there may be some rare cases where that will reduce social distancing but, on balance, there will be far less social contact [1]. In contrast, if we all freestyle it according to what we deem a good idea for ourselves we're going to end up with carnage.
[1] https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/four-graphs-that-show-the-effect-of-social-distancing-in-the-uk
Similarly, dye in lakes is just a weird thing to do that can’t really be justified.
The water looks very inviting, and is great for photos, and burns your skin, and is in an unsafe quarry. People were (in previous summers) travelling to it for instagram photos, and generally hanging out, and, insanely, swimming. Go and read about why they have to make it less inviting for public health reasons, both in normal times and recently.
This drone shaming. I may have missed it but did it personally identify people or was it used as part of the message about people travelling in to places for exercise / pleasure? The only thing I saw was a loose correlation between 'people on Curbar' and 'cars at the Gap car park that were registered to addresses not in the Hope Valley'. Were personally identifiable information or pictures shared or is the shaming just more broadly messaging that the authorities were aware people were doing it and that they could be readily identified should the motive be there? There is a need whether you like it or not to use quick, novel and sharable methods and messages to discourage certain types of behaviour and for me, I think the campaign worked very well.
Thanks for carrying on monkeysfeet. Stay as safe as you can.
Having said that @Kelvin - freedom is the ability for idiots to make stupid decisions. Including swimming in toxic water.
If we treat everyone like babies then those of us who are intelligent enough to make use of their freedom is just a slave.
Sorry @Monkeysfeet - whilst I agree with your sentiment (and the actions you describe), it's the po-po's job to enforce the letter of the law, not interpret it for the greater good and enforce those interpretations.
So, that thing's spewing time back into the universe?
If we treat everyone like babies
Let me guess… “elf ‘n safety gone mad”.
it’s the po-po’s job to enforce the letter of the law, not interpret it for the greater good
Are you calling for stricter laws, rather than allowing the police to “interpret” and asking the public to simply follow “advice”? We shouldn’t need that. But I fear we might.
Also, only babies say “po-po”, especially when addressing a police officer, even if only on a forum.
This drone shaming. I may have missed it but did it personally identify people or was it used as part of the message about people travelling in to places for exercise / pleasure?
Nope. Number plates and faces blurred. I have zero issues with it, got the message out very effectively.
Number plates and faces blurred. I have zero issues with it, got the message out very effectively.
It got the message out there brilliantly.
Everyone using the phrase “threatened with drones”, should have a good look into, and think about, how and why that meme spread, and who was most keen on using and promoting it.
There's been a phone in this morning on five live on this issue.
Somewhat predictably, its been similar to this thread, where various self-entitled people have been stating their 'right' to ignore the rules, as they think they know better than the police, medical authorities and the government and should therefore be exempted.
And in the odd hysterical member of the tinfoil helmet brigade bleating that being asked not to behave like a nobhead is the equivelent of living in East Germany in the 1970's
I have zero issues with it, got the message out very effectively.
+1
As far as I'm concerned the police have got it as good as they could in the circumstances so far. You mustn't forget that they have to make sure everyone if every intelligence and social background is obeying the rules. I've been questioned twice already about why I was out at 5 am on my bike, all I've and friendly and all I had to do was be polite, show them my work ID badge, say I was going to/from work and there was no issue. The officers did day that they'd found two gangs already out looking for shops to break into, fully believe that as lots have been done over this last week.
Bottom line is the police need our support in very difficult times.
Are we going to be stopped simply because of our plates?
No and yes. Your number plate gives the address of the keeper no matter what the prefix. ANPR is a wonderful thing.
Last night I drove 8k, parked my car in a deserted car park and ran up a wee hill with no one else on it. Even if there were other people the tracks are wide enough to give 2m distance and there are no gates to open that might spread the virus through contact. If the car park had been busy I was ready to turn around and go home.
.........bravo, you made it and it obviously makes you feel justified and, of course, there was absolutely no chance of an accident during all this time which could have involved an ambulance crew, Police, Fire Brigade or even mountain rescue to sort you out. They've got loads of time on their hands at the moment and welcome any opportunity to be exposed to even more risk!
As far as I’m concerned the police have got it as good as they could in the circumstances so far.
SOME police have done very well. SOME (like Derbyshire) have interpreted a mix of law, guidance, requests, advice and wildly varied press briefings into a "thou shall not drive anywhere for any reason" outcome. Passive aggressive tweets about "lycra-clad" later "clarified" to mean groups of cyclists. Sending a drone up to film some perfectly law-abiding walkers on public land, well-spaced and "distanced" and then shame them. Telling people they've gone over their allocated "quota" of exercis (nowhere does it specifically state a time limit, in spite of what Fishface Gove bleated out the other day).
I get that there are some (actually plenty of) total ****nuggets. I get that policing is incredibly difficult and dangerous and underfunded and largely thankless.
But I also get that SOME police have really just opened themselves up to scrutiny and perfectly justified criticism for the way they've handled this, deployed already scarce resources and presented themselves.
The water looks very inviting, and is great for photos, and burns your skin, and is in an unsafe quarry. People were (in previous summers) travelling to it for instagram photos, and generally hanging out, and, insanely, swimming. Go and read about why they have to make it less inviting for public health reasons, both in normal times and recently.
Ah I see, makes a bit more sense now. My fault for believing what I read in the papers (a bit).
Now I'm not against everyone following the rules at the minute, I am fairly strictly following the myself and will continue to do so, and encourage everyone to do the same. But you do wonder what the effects of this authoritarian stint we're going through will be..
I'm pretty sure there's going to be some long term implications on how society is organised in the future, this is definitely an attitude shift that some people will find hard to let go of.
Can definitely see people voting for more and more draconian surveillance measures and whistle-blowing type activities being more more prevalent going forward..
A lot of people think we'll just go back to normal after this. I don't think we will at all, the 1-2 years that we'll be dealing with this will see a massive change in things over the next 10 years... Not least due to the fears of another outbreak happening as well.
Particularly if it's found that china isn't b-shitting it's numbers at the moment, lots of eyes will be looking there and a lot of the technology and actions they took will be getting eyed up.
Okay so it's decided then, we consult Holly.
SOME police have done very well. SOME (like Derbyshire) have interpreted a mix of law, guidance, requests, advice and wildly varied press briefings into a “thou shall not drive anywhere for any reason” outcome.
Isn't this the problem? "The Police" is not one homogeneous entity and the actions of some forces are negatively impacting the response of others. Some of the Derbyshire tactics are creating a nation of curtain-twitchers and forces are having to handles calls of "that person was out twice today" or "that person was out for an hour and a half" type of seriousness when they really have bigger issues to deal with. If the distancing/lock-down measures are viewed as a dam holding back the floods, a couple of trickles aren't important, it's the major breeches that will cause trouble downstream.
SOME (like Derbyshire) have interpreted a mix of law, guidance, requests, advice and wildly varied press briefings into a “thou shall not drive anywhere for any reason” outcome.
No, they said that you should not be driving to the Peak District for a walk or a ride. Not the law, but advice/ guidance/ instruction. Don’t drive out to beauty spots for exercise. Advice to help stop/slow the spread of the virus. Advice that will help save lives, including the lives of the medical professionals putting their health on the line to get us through this.
The water looks very inviting, and is great for photos, and burns your skin, and is in an unsafe quarry. People were (in previous summers) travelling to it for instagram photos, and generally hanging out, and, insanely, swimming. Go and read about why they have to make it less inviting for public health reasons, both in normal times and recently.
Yea, that lake is notorious. It's wildly toxic (incredibly alkaline, almost like bleach) because of the lime and the chemicals used in the quarrying/extraction, the water covers all manner of random shit at the bottom (old quarry vehicles and machinery, waste etc) and it's very cold and in places very deep.
Not bad for pictures on a sunny day but it's been dyed a few times in the past to deter swimmers.
Actually don't have a problem with that being done although rather then it being open to the air it'd be nice to see the whole lot covered over.
but even the government don’t have a common position on this. Or at least if they do, they haven’t communicated it (well enough)
More guesswork than normal then!
Tell you what. I am a careful driver. I am quite skilled as have done a few track days and my advanced driving. My car is in great condition and the roads are super quiet. I think today i will drive at 90mph everywhere, i doubt anything will happen as there are less people to hit.......
So, what is it?
One of the A roads a mile or so away from me, a person in a car who was over the drink drive limit managed to cause a crash with 2 other cars at 10am yesterday morning. Looking at local traffic, they must have been the only 3 cars on the road!
The report suggested that she was released pending investigation. Someone mentioned that might be due to just being hung over from the night before and still being over the limit?
Suppose it's just one example of what could happen.
A cursory glance at social media would confirm that most of the country has been permenently pissed for a week now
Tell you what. I am a careful driver. I am quite skilled as have done a few track days and my advanced driving. My car is in great condition and the roads are super quiet. I think today i will drive at 90mph everywhere, i doubt anything will happen as there are less people to hit…….
Well that's illegal and it comes under normal day-to-day roads policing. Like this:
https://twitter.com/DerbyshireRPU/status/1244945610031214602
(I picked Derbyshire just out of interest following their Roads Policing Unit tweets about "lycra-clad" and so on).
Your attempt an analogy is wrong because you've quoted an example that you already know is outside the existing law. If you were caught and arrested for what you described it wouldn't be heavy handed at all, it'd be applying the existing law in a reasonable manner.
No, they said that you should not be driving to the Peak District for a walk or a ride. Not the law, but advice/ guidance/ instruction. Don’t drive out to beauty spots for exercise.
Which others are reinterpreting as 'thou shalt not drive anywhere', even if that anywhere is local and puts you in a place away from human contact.
Not really shaming when you can’t make them out.
https://twitter.com/derbyshirerpu/status/1243203383286169601?s=21
