[Closed] Pie - Definitions please

Tart! You're talking cobblers!

From wiki
Pies are defined by their crusts. A filled pie (also single-crust or bottom-crust), has pastry lining the baking dish, and the filling is placed on top of the pastry but left open. A top-crust pie, which may also be called a cobbler, has the filling in the bottom of the dish and is covered with a pastry or other covering before baking. A two-crust pie has the filling completely enclosed in the pastry shell.

Since most full casing "pies" are done so with short pastry you can keep it.

Pies should be puff pastry or mash potato topped. There's no need for any more pastry holding the juice in if it's being served in a pie dish.

However, pies for the pocket obviously need to be fully encased.

So, Id call both pies (and more), but dont particularly have any affection for some sturdy short pastry lead pot.

joolsburger - you are entirely correct. I always check first before ordering, and if it is a stew with a lid, sigh disappointedly and order my second choice.

Then never darken the doors of the establishment again. 👿

Roughly 3.14.

Stoner, I can cope with your entirely incorrect political stance.
Your opinions regarding economics only raise my urine temperature to slightly above tepid.
I agree with your views regarding the current state of the British press.
Your Land Rover based exploits are entirely worthy.

But this

Pies should be puff pastry or mash potato topped.

and this

....dont particularly have any affection for some sturdy short pastry....

Get help, if only for the sake of your kids.

I'm with Stoner on this matter.

tthew- That is an attitide that does you credit. How dare they and were I to quite rightly burn their establishment to the ground for this heresy, I would be arrested as though I were in the wrong.

A pie is what it is. There is no middle ground and nor should there be.

No open faced pies, no cobblers, no dessert pies or, god forbid, pizza pies, we already have adquate words to describe such things.

[img] [/img]

Stew with a square of puff pastry placed on top does not constitute a pie 👿

Pies should be puff pastry or mash potato topped.

Steady on.

There's no need for any more pastry holding the juice in if it's being served in a pie dish.

This is the single most offensive sentence I have ever read on this cursed site. May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your loins.

Yunki that looks very tasty but a pie it is not.

This is a pie

[img] [/img]

Notice if you will the total enclosure of the filling on all sides and an adequate but not excessive gravy, the very high meat to air ratio is simply an added bonus provided by this particular manufacturer.

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joolsburger - Member

Yunki that looks very tasty but a pie it is not.

You're right.

It's a visual representaion of EVERYTHING that is wrong with this country.
Seriously, we need to clamp down on this filth.

I'm getting seriouly aggravated with people serving me a plate of stew with a pastry lid and calling it a pie. A pie should be a filling encased on all sides with some kind of pastry

**APPLAUSE**
I've been saying this for years.

But this:

Pies should be puff pastry or mash potato topped.

Puff pastry has had no place in a pie since 1985. Invariably "pies" such as this are in an oval dish and preheated to the surface temperature of the sun. The dish is there purely because no pasty can contain the sloppy gruel contained within. (90% gravy with unidentified lumps in it) they are invariably served with chips and over cooked veg.
A PIE should hold its shape when cut in half. Any gravy should leak out slowly, not gush like a dam after a Lancaster has bombed it.
Mrs PP makes pies. Proper man-pies that have real meat in them and pastry around them or mash on top. Anyone who wants to argue with that is cordially invited for dinner, after which I'll accept your apology. 🙂

Mrs PP makes pies. Proper man-pies that have real meat in them and pastry around them or mash on top. Anyone who wants to argue with that is cordially invited for dinner, after which I'll accept your apology.

*joins the rapidly lengthening 'arguing' queue...*

Any gravy should leak out slowly, not gush like a dam after a Lancaster has bombed it.

bravo

That pic wot Jools put up is....a picture of a pie.

Puff pastry & mashed potato! WTF!

I thought I'd read some strange things on this site but this thread beats the lot. A pie is a pastry container for something tasty, not just your dinner wearing a hat. The pork and black pudding pie I finished as post-ride nutrition today is a case in point: pig, blood sausage, and a bit of jelly contained [u]on all sides[/u] by short-crust pastry. Excellent it was too.

I wish you'd not started me thinking of pies 😥

Well, mashed potato covers a shepherds, cottage or fish pie. Whilst not strictly a [i]pie[/i] as such tradition has played a big part in them being given honorary pie status. And they can easily be made so they hold their shape after cutting, and as such this is a good test of their quality. Cheap pies are sloppy.

I'm so glad I'm not alone in this. When I remonstrated with the chap that served me yet another pot of watery stew containing 3 lumps of undefined gristle and "topped with a pasty lid" he looked at me as though I was mad. The fact that the accompanying chips were served in a small galivinised bucket and the whole thing came out on a slate @ £9.95 to you sir was the final straw. Never again. I plan to start a page on social media to campaign against these things.

Shepherds, cottage and fish are exempt as they have, as has quite rightly been said, earned an exemption and are well understood to be pies.

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fao-ton-and-binners-the-full-english-breakfast-pie ]breakfast pie[/url]

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-think-its-time-fr-another-pie-thread ]another pie thread[/url]

drools onto keyboard...

What about a steak and kidney pudding made with suet pastry? Pudding or Pie

I'm keeping out of this....

Onzadog - Member
Roughly 3.14

[img] [/img]

I think we can tell from the general whippetry of the pro-full casing pie grumbles that this is a Northern thing, and ergo since all northerners are, without exception, usually wrong on everything we can conclude that a decent pie involves a puff lid on a hearty stew. Anything else is just working class hair - shirt cobblers.

Thread closed

the accompanying chips were served in a small galivinised bucket and the whole thing came out on a slate

I once went into the gents toilet of one of the local gastropubs and deliberately pissed all over the floor after being served chips in a crappy little metal bucket.

I think we can tell from the general whippetry of the pro-full casing pie grumbles that this is a Northern thing, and ergo since all northerners are, without exception, usually wrong on everything we can conclude that a decent pie involves a puff lid on a hearty stew. Anything else is just working class hair - shirt cobblers.

I think you mean

...a [i]southern puff[/i] lid on a hearty stew...

Stoner - Member

I think we can tell from the general whippetry of the pro-full casing pie grumbles that this is a Northern thing

I'm reliably informed that sense and good taste are not geographically dependant, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

...and ergo since all northerners are, without exception, usually wrong on everything we can conclude that a decent pie involves a puff lid on a hearty stew....

Hand yourself in to the authorities before you hurt anyone else.
Please.

Anything else is just working class hair - shirt cobblers.

These shortcrust abominations are a ploy by the restaurant owning bourgeoisie to charge the working man (or woman, Reg) more for less.
A perfect example of the failings of capitalism without regulation.

Seriously, watch your back sunshine. You're on the [s]menu[/s] list.

I once went into the gents toilet of one of the local gastropubs and deliberately pissed all over the floor after being served chips in a crappy little metal bucket.

I did exactly the same thing because they weren't.

Stoner for the record I myself am a Londoner. Pie transcends all boundaries and knows no prejudice. From the highlands and islands to the very tip of the southwest. In this place, in these bejewelled lands - A pie must have a case.

A pork pie with no meat and a fat free pastry

Can we at least unite in not allowing this abomination to good taste [ see what i did there] to be called a pie please.

[img] [/img]

A pie must have a case

Indeed.

You can take a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.
As my old Granny never used to say.

I was in the queue at the Lochore Meadows Country Park, the guy in front of me ordered a pie and a mochachino.

It's pretty cosmopolitan up here.

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Stoner. You are wrong, so wrong, your wrongness cannot be described on any normal scale of wrong.

Stew with a hat does not equal pie.

*Added to the list of people against the wall when the time comes.

The pastry is the essence of the pie and a bit of dry, tasteless, flakey Puff atop a stew just won't do. In fact there is no place for puff pastry on top of a stew either. The whole point of a pie is that it could be taken to work before the days of Tupperware and cling film, and allow them to be eaten without cutlery. A decent Hot Pot can have Short Crust Pastry on top, but it ain't a pie. If it's served in a dish it can't be a pie, it's a stew or something akin to a stew whether it's topped with pastry or not. Fisherman's/Cottage/Shepard's pies are the only exception, but they're not proper pies, they've just adopted the name.

mcmoonter - Member
I was in the queue at the Lochore Meadows Country Park, the guy in front of me ordered a pie and a mochachino.
It's pretty cosmopolitan up here.

At least it's a step up from battering everything within an inch of it's life.

It's really quite simple.

Can you pick it up in your hands and carry it to your mouth? If you cannot (for any reason other than "it's a really big one") then it is not, by any sensible definition, a pie. A pie is self-sustaining and stands alone, proud. It does not require third party support from some party-sized casserole dish.

"Cottage pie" and their ilk get special exemption from this definition as they are not "pies" of a "cottage" type, but rather "cottage pie" is its full name. It does not, after all, actually contain cottages(*). It's a bit like the "slow worm" which, despite its name, is not actually a worm (or a snake either for that matter).

(* - Except when served in East Lancashire football stadiums, perhaps)

I was in the queue at the Lochore Meadows Country Park, the guy in front of me ordered a pie and a mochachino.

It's pretty cosmopolitan up here.

Yeh, when it's daylight*. Dogging central when the lights go down.

*even then! a hell of a warped stretch of reality.

PP. your exaltations of MrsPP's pies require extensive examination and repeated testing, and tasting, to confirm they are actual pies. When and where is this to be done?

I'll take one for the team and volunteer to check their pie-ness. No need to thank me.

Pies are pastry all around.
Stew should be topped with dumplings, not pastry.

Cornish Pasty is far better again.

Pies are pastry all around.
Stew should be topped with dumplings, not pastry.

Cornish Pasty is far better again

*other than pork pie and even some of it's effete chutney-topped derivatives

** unless toiling in the field from morn to dusk, or whatever it is that peasants do 😉

OP and Cougar +1.
Recently introduced to suet pudding. Thought it was great. How do dishes of that ilk sit within the debate? I thought they may be excluded on account of the steaming/boiling cooking method.

Clue's in the name, really. Though I believe the correct term for these is "babby's yed".

Your arguing about pies now?

*walk away shaking head*

emsz - Member
[b]Your[/b]

It's attitudes like that that allow these things to happen.

All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

Bother,I find myself in agreement with the northerners and I am so far South that if I go 300 yards further south I get my feet wet in the Solent.

In a similar vein, can we talk about coffee now. If it has foam chocolate syrup or other novelty flavours in it - that is not coffee, it is warm gunk with a hint of coffee and who orders a pie and mocachino together. And why does 3 shots of espresso in a small cup always result in me being asked if I know how strong it will be!!!!!

Pies should be self supporting and completely pastry encased, anything else is just wrong and not fit to sully the name pie.
Talking of which dinner tonight was steak, mushroom and ale pie made with Theakstons Old Peculier. It was truly memorable and a pie even Mrs PP would have been proud of.
Yep, definitely a northerner ...

The only thing that's allowed a top crust only is corned beef hash with pickled cabbage on the side, and non of that puffy puff shite either.. Short crust or sod off!

A pie should be self-contained IMO.

Stew with a lid served in a Gastro-Pub is not a pie, it's a stew with a lid in it's own little dish.

Need lots of pastry to be a proper pie.

noun
a baked dish of fruit, or meat and vegetables, typically with a top and base of pastry:
a meat pie

[mass noun]:a good meal of hot pie and peas

[as modifier]:a pie dish

There you go.
I'm a bit more catholic than some types on here and would be happy using the following equation.

Meat+gravy+pastry=good times
or
Meat+gravy+pastry+peas+pickledbetroot+pickledcabbage+pickedonions=good timesx10

The pie shop is no place for puritans

I don't accept a stew with a pastry top as a pie.

stew with a lid is not a pie.

i had a pork pie for elevenses - it looked a bit like this:

[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4JPUoveSfBe5vpHr2wT9VnfYwJrV5shaQAEAKTFOMW0pZO3vA [/img]

and now i feel epic.

We went to the much-vaunted pie pub in Banbury a few weeks ago and whilst the food is undoubtedly very nice, they also run with this half-a-job pastry on the top only. The Cornish Pasty would never have evolved with this kind of half-baked half-bakery.

I have nothing to contribute other than a) Stoner who I know in real life and had down as a sensible and well informed sort of chap has clearly gone batsh!t crazy and b) its days like this I remember why I keep coming back to this place.

STW should essentially be the final arbitor on all pastry/meat related quandaries. With the power of veto. With an axe if necessary.

"What about a steak and kidney pudding made with suet pastry? Pudding or Pie"

It's pudding for pie lovers. The perfect example can be found at The Church Inn, Uppermill. Their steak and kidney pud is served with the traditional chips, mushy peas and gravy. I find it goes even better with a pint of dark mild brewed on the premises.

Now that's the sort of lunch a southerner can only dream about.

[img] [/img]

Yunki, that barely qualifies as food, never mind Pie.

I was starting to salivate reading MT's description of the Steak and Kidney pud... then i was nearly sick in my mouth when Yunki's pic popped up

Bad Yunki 🙁

My 2p - Pie has to be encased, sloppy gravy with a puff pastry does not constitute a pie. It's just a lazy/cheap chef not doing it properly

Down here in the south of France 8) pies don't exist which is one of the main reasons further European integration should be firmly resisted.
If the north and south can debate pies for this long imagine what would happen in Brussels , mind you we would have Neil Kinnock fighting our corner so no worries their then.

I'm pretty Southern and I feel that I should stand up for the 'totally encased' pie fanatics on this thread.

Pies that come with just a twee little puffy lid that explodes all over the table when you attempt to cut into it should be ceremonially shot from a cannon off the White Cliffs of Dover never to be seen again!

Mash is acceptable for fish, sheperd's and cottage pie, but I am not sure why.

Bad Yunki

That boy has the devil in him.......

Remember the thin, soggy, beige membrane of raw pastry twixt 'beef' and crust?
Ewwwwwwwwwwwww.

I thought that historically the whole point of a pie was to use the pastry case as a "dish" to contain the contents and hold it away from your probably manky, unclean, leaky container; the case itself didn't get eaten so could be used again.

This suggests that pies should (a) be fully enclosed and (b) be short crust. These two conditions I personally am fully in support of (puff pastry? Seriously?).

Puff pastry is perfectly acceptable - on a dessert.

Pontypine sized dishes with puffy flaky hats might qualify under the dictionary definition but I put it to the STW massive that the dictionary has been subverted by philistines.

And just what the hell is a pizza pie? Gadzooks.

A pie is a thing of beauty and I find myself (for once) fully in agreement with the sentiments of the north. Self supporting, encased by pastry, gravy that oozes out when cut, with a predominance of meaty products flavoured with perhaps a small amount of select veg - onion, a few chunks of carrots or peas.

It's pudding for pie lovers. The perfect example can be found at The Church Inn, Uppermill. Their steak and kidney pud is served with the traditional chips, mushy peas and gravy. I find it goes even better with a pint of dark mild brewed on the premises.

Now that's the sort of lunch a southerner can only dream about

I am actually dreaming about that now.

The problem with the "stew with pastry hat", be it short or puff, is that it should really be a plethora of dumplings (not sure if there is a specific name for a gathering of dumplings) for it to succeed as a dish.
Pie with pastry (unless it's the exempt few), stew with dumplings.

[url= http://www.therealpieco.co.uk/product-category/steak-pies/ ]mmmmmmmmpie[/url]

I have the good fortune of a stockist at the end of my road however even these delightful offerings have nothing on the home cooked versions.

Today this place has made me a happier person, I'm glad to read that there are at least some of us who still take these things seriously.

Stew with a hat does not equal pie.

This +1000. The hat also keeps the stew slightly hotter than the surface of the sun.

Shepherd's and fish pies have honorary status because everyone knows they are topped with mash, so whilst nomenclature may not be strictly accurate, you know what you're getting if you order it.

Have the scot's done battered pies yet?

It's really quite simple.

Can you pick it up in your hands and carry it to your mouth? If you cannot (for any reason other than "it's a really big one") then it is not, by any sensible definition, a pie. A pie is self-sustaining and stands alone, proud. It does not require third party support from some party-sized casserole dish.

Stew with a hat does not equal pie.

I associate myself with those remarks.

End of thread surely.

I'm a proper southerner and agree with all the above - short pastry all round, thick oozing gravy = pie. Though I do propose that puff pastry is to be fully endorsed on a beef wellington like wot Mrs P cooked on Saturday. But that's definitely not a pie.

I'm a proper southerner and agree with all the above - short pastry all round, thick oozing gravy = pie.

Not quite sure why the northerners are trying to annex the concept of pie, they seem to believe proper pies are unavailable in the south?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_pie ]Mmmmm real northern pie.....[/url]

The definition of a pie is quite simple. Can it be comfortably slapped on a barm cake?

[img] [/img]

I will hold my hands up and admit that piegate came when I was at a low-point in my life. I was in the final death-throes of terminal man-flu, and crankier than Cressers on crack.

Whilst I might concede that pro-pie-ganda spouted by some in this thread regarding a clungy-wrapped, concrete encased, inverted turtle of a meat product is the correct definition of a "pie", it is still, not to put too fine a point on it, crap.

And the mighty slab of puff pastry that covers the full spectrum of pastry textures from slippy, gravy-slathered underbelly to fluffy light scabbed-knee top still reigns supreme.

You win this battle, but you still lose the war!

I'm moderate in my pie prejudice, I can contain my rage when presented with stew with a short crust hat (at least it's the correct pastry) but puff pastry has no place in a savoury meal full stop.

Stew with a hat does not equal pie.

I'm pretty sure that I have been served one of these abominations in Wigan.

Suprised the place in question is still in business.

puff pastry has no place in a savoury meal full stop.

I politely refer you to my post above and urge you to reconsider that statement with due consideration to beef wellington.

thepurist - Member
puff pastry has no place in a savoury meal full stop.
I politely refer you to my post above and urge you to reconsider that statement with due consideration to beef wellington.

Is this the Sunday puff rule like the Friday Kylie? And anyway it doesn't puff so much on a Wellington.