[Closed] Pentecost...........well i never.

These are old and tired questions in the debate
Usual answers?

1) Why is your god(s) the true god(s) and other gods are false gods

2) What evidence for your god(s) existence exists

Can i try a question or the non-religious now?

1) Do you believe in ESP (remote mind reading and so on)?

Love and happiness

1) Do you believe in ESP (remote mind reading and so on)?

I believe in intuition and probability, whether that the same thing?

setting down to watch SoP with a nice cup of tea and a French fancy.

that sounds quite nice n relaxing. I'm in! I have some battenburg cake.

no, not the same thing.

I talking about the 'guess which card/picture i'm looking at' from a separate room kind of ESP

Have you ever read the old testament?

Again with [i]your [/i]operationalisation

'guess which card/picture i'm looking at'

I would say this is probabilistic, a bit like roulette.
I do not believe their is any evidence to say anyone could 100% reliably predict the outcome in the scenario you descibe.

"1) Why is your god(s) the true god(s) and other gods are false gods"

This isn't the case

" 2) What evidence for your god(s) existence exists"

Love and happiness

Not only do I not believe, i positively reject your gods and I enjoy wonderful love and happiness, whereas worship of gods causes horrendous pain and suffering.

EVIDENCE PLEASE for the existance of a god

ESP - no - tested and proven not to exist.

I do not believe without evidence. I am a rational person

Not only do I not believe, i positively reject your gods and I enjoy wonderful love and happiness

But they give it to you anyway, that's just how nice they are. That's more evidence for you.

ESP - no - tested and proven not to exist.
I do not believe without evidence. I am a rational person

That's one half of it, do you then believe when there is evidence

Somehow I knew you were going to say that - honest!

Well, it was so obvious a question I was surprised it wasn't pre-empted and answered initially

God was speaking to me at the time - sorry got distracted

I do not believe their is any evidence to say anyone could 100% reliably predict the outcome in the scenario you descibe

Surely if you believe in probability it wouldn't need to be 100% reliable. It would only need to happen reliably more often than chance alone would allow?

If there was good evidence of ESP I would believe in its existence. As there is no evidence of its existence then I don't .

So Charlie - are you a pantheist or a Christian? If you are a Christian then you must reject other gods as false according to scripture.

I like Ganesh. I think he is my favourite god. unless yo count Budda as a god

If there was good evidence of ESP I would believe in its existence. As there is no evidence of its existence then I don't

http://www.stat.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html

So Charlie - are you a pantheist or a Christian? If you are a Christian then you must reject other gods as false according to scripture.

If I believed scripture

Surely if you believe in probability it wouldn't need to be 100% reliable. It would only need to happen reliably more often than chance alone would allow?

The math could determine the likihood of predicting the correct call of say a playing card in a pack of 52. I would say that's a 1 in 52 chance of calling the correct playing card on the first attempt. So if by chance a correct 'guess' was made on the first attempt, this would nether proove or dis-proove ESP.

So what religion are you then Charlie?

The math could determine the likihood of predicting the correct call of say a playing card in a pack of 52. I would say that's a 1 in 52 chance of calling the correct playing card on the first attempt. So if by chance a correct 'guess' was made on the first attempt, this would nether proove or dis-proove ESP

Yes and the maths would also show that the correct guess was within the bounds of statistical chance

but if it was done in a statistically reliable and consistent manner as the link showed?

So what religion are you then Charlie?

Me? I'm a theist

perhaps some of the insecurities stem from the 1000's of years of religous wars and persecution of the innocent?

Don't be ridiculous!

As geetee says, there are several different points here. Existence of God, the merits of organised religion, and biblical inerrancy with regards creation.

The three are really completely separate arguments. However tarring all religious people, Christians or church goers with the same brush is fairly ignorant. I've spoken to many Christians who don't believe the biblical account of creations. I started once (as a very young man) arguing against one such person (also a Physics student) by saying how ridiculous the creation stories were; she replied that they were just parables. Fairly obvious really.

If there was good evidence of ESP I would believe in its existence. As there is no evidence of its existence then I don't

Would not be better to withhold judgement rather than believe it doesn't exist?

Anyway.. what if there was a god but he provided no evidence? Then what? Or his evidence was in a form that we could not understand?

Out of interest, have any of you lot read a book called [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland ]Flatland[/url] by Edwin A Abbott?

It would only need to happen reliably more often than chance alone would allow?

If the number of attepts at 'guessing' is sufficiently high I would anticipate a 1 in 52 chance could be prooven. If the result is higher than chance would allow then I would say the randomisation of the pack was floored.

If the result is higher than chance would allow then I would say the randomisation of the pack was floored

Why would you say that? Surely not trying to explain away the results to get the answer you wanted before you started?

TJ you can't positively reject something you don't believe in. By positively rejecting it you sound like you've got got a grudge against God. Would you say you were bigoted towards religion?

I personally don't believe that there is a god as Christianity would have us believe so I don't need to reject it and nor do I feel animosity towards Christians practising their own belief. Its just something that works for them.

Right, so even if the evidence was provided you would still look for a way to hold on to your pre-conception?

What if the pack wasn't flawed?

Don't be ridiculous!

I recall, when I was about six years old, almost being pursuaded by religion, fearful of burning in unimaginable pain for eternity in hell fire. That does 'grate' slightly with me.

Geetee scores again!

Absolutely. Good shot old chap.

Geetee - I loathe and despise religion and the religious, I believe all people who believe in god(s) are feeble minded.

I think the religious, religion and belief in god as an incredibly regressive, negative, dangerous and harmful mental illness. It is a force of incredible harm and holds back the human race.

Its not biogotry.

I believe all people who believe in god(s) are feeble minded

That's a disgrace from a sensitive intelligent bloke such as yourself mate, seriously.

Geetee - I loathe and despise religion and the religious, I believe all people who believe in god(s) are feeble minded.

You think Newton, Boyle, Faraday and Einstein were feeble minded?

don't 90% of the worlds population believe in a God or deity of some sort? So it exists as a human concept. you can't prove a concept. You can't prove or disprove "God" any more than you can prove or disprove "love".

TJ are you being serious? I mean I always thought you were in favour of equality and fairness. Transpose the words religion or religious for gay for exaple and you'd get banned as well as (rightly ) flamed.

Please tell me you were joking. Really I haven't always agreed with you buti never thought you were a biggot.

No molgrips - the attitudes of the god bothereres is an absolute disgrace.

I am not offensive to peoples faces and I behave with sensitivity in a house of worship.

But to be challenged by those professing moral superiority because they believe in fairy stories is offensive in the extreme.

they asked for it on this thread - would you rather I lied and said the belief in god is harmless? Its dangerous and its only for the feeble minded

Right, so even if the evidence was provided you would still look for a way to hold on to your pre-conception?

What if the pack wasn't flawed?

I would predict that the stats would indicate a 1 in 52 chance.

But to be challenged by those professing moral superiority because they believe in fairy stories offensive in the extreme

But that doesn't happen here. In fact the reason we get into these arguments is because of the professed superiority of some of those who don't believe in a god

In respect of religion yes they were feeble minded. Shall we list the other things they believed in their ignorance and hold them dear as well now?
Newton believed in alchemy for example
Einstein is debatable as I am sure you are well aware*.
I genuinely fail to understand why very bright people actually believe in god....bussom of the feeble minded, opium of the masses take your pick.
* debatable he believed in god not that he was a clever fellow obviously.

But to be challenged by those professing moral superiority because they believe in fairy stories offensive in the extreme.

I suspect that the religious people you are talking about are those in your imagination rather than those that I have seen here and elsewhere. Maybe it's time to put down the keyboard down for the evening?

Provide me with the evidence. And I'll check the experimental design.

http://www.stat.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html <

I genuinely fail to understand why very bright people actually believe in god.

TJ you appear to continue to go down the "losing it" route.

As a friend, take a break.

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

You can say it is feeble minded but much of our society only seems to function if there is someone to blame.

* debatable he believed in god not that he was a clever fellow obviously