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We're updating our CNC machine at work - we currently have two old desktop towers (one back-up) which run LinuxCNC via a parallel port. The new control box will connect with Ethernet and will be controlled via Mach3 on Windows. My CNC machine man said "I5 with Win 10 and 8GB of RAM" is what we need. I am fairly clueless!
What do the computer experts here recommend? One thing I know would be good is something that isn't fan cooled, if such PCs exist? We do our best to minimise sawdust but cutting plywood it's unavoidable and the innards of our PCs end up full of it.
What motion controller board are you using?
I use and old i7 laptop that is about 10 years old and it's fine. So I would imagine any modern i5 or above would not struggle.
I use a UC400ETH controller with Mach3 but I am going to make the switch from Mach3 to UCCNC as it just is still developed and is more modern in its control.
Search Google for "passively cooled" or "fanless" industrial PC. Likewise eBay, there's loads.
pretty much anything will be OK, the requirements for CNC are extremely low!
I've got a fanless Lenovo ThinkCentre mini PC which I use as a home server, been faultless, very energy efficient too. Got mine as a refurb off eBay (there are loads!) but not mega bucks new either.
as above, you can get specific industrial fanless PCs, I wouldn't bother personally though unless you feel like spending money on something shiny (they do look cool!!) 😂
The new control box will connect with Ethernet
A bog standard cat5e ethernet cable is good for runs of up to 100m - the easiest solution would be to place the pc in a different room to the workshop/CNC machine. Take the PC away from the dust rather than having it in a dusty environment and sttempting to prevent dust ingress.
You can get passive CPU coolers, but they rely on a bit of air flow from case fans to work correctly, so a fanless cooler isnt a complete solution.
Alternativley you could look at a mini PC like an intel NUC - but they are pricey for a decent spec.. they still require airflow but you could put it in a larger vented box/cabinate of some sort with foam filters over the vents?
Mach themselves would suggest that your CNC man is incorrect. If it supports Windows 2000, it'll practically run on an Etch-a-Sketch.
https://www.machsupport.com/software/mach3/
Seems there's also a Mach4?
https://www.machsupport.com/software/mach4/
"A bog standard cat5e ethernet cable is good for runs of up to 100m – the easiest solution would be to place the pc in a different room to the workshop/CNC machine. Take the PC away from the dust rather than having it in a dusty environment and sttempting to prevent dust ingress."
You really need it next to the machine. You might need to jog it about, see what's needed for tool changes etc.
Ok, thinking outside the box, could you build a cabinate for the PC to sit inside? Put some vents in it with mesh grille and foam filters? The foam filters will need to be cleaned but it should allow air circulation inside - so you dont have to spend extra on a passive cooling etc, and can use any old regular PC?
Could probably make something like this out of MDF or a repurposed cabinate? pretty cheap? https://www.dustshield.com/product/mini-tower-computer-enclosure-ds121/
Raspberry Pi 4 is £40, if you can find one in stock somewhere.
no reason you can't have the PC somewhere safe & just control it with a tablet via VNCYou really need it next to the machine. You might need to jog it about, see what’s needed for tool changes etc.
EDIT: just googled LinuxCNC, ugh, that UI 😂 doesn't look very tablet friendly!!
My CNC machine man said “I5 with Win 10 and 8GB of RAM”
That's your bog standard office PC.
Basically, you just need a fan drawing air from outside the room to pump clean air into the case. If there's no clean air available, just see what gamers use for water cooling and then run cold water into it instead of fresh air.
"What motion controller board are you using?"
Our current machine was made by RoutoutCNC and the new (more powerful) controller is being made by Mike who used to run Routout.
"That’s your bog standard office PC."
Is there anything specific anyone would recommend? Imagine you're talking to someone who stopped being interested in computers about 30 years ago and just uses MacBooks (one old at home, one new at work) so he doesn't have to think about this stuff...
Is there anything specific anyone would recommend?
Any generic office PC from Dell, Lenovo, etc. will do fine.
Is there anything specific anyone would recommend? Imagine you’re talking to someone who stopped being interested in computers about 30 years ago and just uses MacBooks (one old at home, one new at work) so he doesn’t have to think about this stuff…
Go onto ebay, there's heaps of lightly used ones on there. I'd look at a lenovo thinkcentre or a hp prodesk. You can get tiny fanless ones or small formfactor ones which are a bit more upgradeable/fixable. Get one with a solid state drive (SSD). Should be around £100-£200. I'd put it in a cabinet to minimise dust.
If it supports Windows 2000, it’ll practically run on an Etch-a-Sketch.
Yep. I run my CNC from a pentium PC running windows XP
Intel NUC?
https://www.icubes.co.uk/intel-nuc-11-essential-series-mini-pc.html
Probably many cheaper equivalents too.
^ that should probably do the job in theory, but they specified i5 and that's a celeron dual core...I can't see CNC software being very demanding but I don't know much about CNC.
I wonder if the i5 requirement is based on like a first gen i5 or something? my last old old laptop was an early i5, dual core, 4 thread.
it's based on the CNC guy not wanting to make an actual recommendation, like you say it could potentially cover something brand new or made 13-14 years ago! 😂I wonder if the i5 requirement is based on
Well indeed, a new gen i5 has 6 cores, 12 threads, and a much higher clock speed than the origeonal ones, it's a very different beast!
can you link us to the software vendors website, and what version you are using, or going to use?
Hopefully they will have a 'system requirements' section that rather than just saying 'i5' it will say something like '6400 or better, or AMD equivelent'
I ran my last machine on Mach 3. It's not at all hungry for processor/memory...well pretty much anything. I think it was a very elderly early i5 running on XP. Off network as the network managers wouldn't support anything still on XP.
We had the machine the other side of a soundproof stud wall that surrounded the booth, with a monitor on the wall of the booth and a logitech wireless keyboard with trackpad. Worked well.
The only reason I'd be buying anything better would be if there is a chance you might want to make a tweak to your files and can't be arsed to go back to your normal cad machine to compile new Gcode.
If I had the money I'd be tempted to build a UPS (uninterruptable power supply) into the build - the number of jobs I've lost to momentary power outages. And it never happens in a way where you can salvage the material (or machining time).
Mach3 needs very little. I'd say anything that meets the specs for windows 10 will be fine.
Thanks, very useful!
We've always had the CNC machine off the network and solely for running the machine - we put files onto it with a USB key. It runs the CNC machine pretty much all day, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. It's really just about stability - we used to use Mach 3 about 10 years ago but LinuxCNC was better at providing the pulses on time via the parallel port so we switched to that. Any editing of Gcode gets done on a different computer.
The CNC machine is having a refurbish next week with a new more powerful controller board (we've upgraded the spindle and stepper motors over the years) and as parallel ports have become a lot more rare it makes sense to switch to an Ethernet driven controller board - hence the move back to Mach 3.
We'd need the PC by the CNC machine for zeroing the axes every sheet.
These look like they'd do the job, don't they? I5 and fanless: https://www.icubes.co.uk/intel-nuc?processor=5688&product_list_order=price
(I think they're fanless but it's hard to be sure!)
The NUCs aren't fanless - except for the 'NUC Rugged' one - https://www.scan.co.uk/products/intel-nuc-8-kit-nuc8cchkrn-chaco-canyon-celeron-n3350-4gb-lpddr3-64gb-emmc-intel-hd-graphics-500-bar. That's a lower spec than your CNC chap suggested.
https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/support/articles/000056784/intel-nuc.html
Aha! Do we think that lower power fanless one would still be ok?
Aha! Do we think that lower power fanless one would still be ok?
I don't know what the demands of your CNC software are, but I had a similar NUC set up to run Plex Media Server (basically just to deliver video files to a TV). It was painfully slow even just doing that. Boot up was slow, which sucks if you are waiting to watch TV, probably worse if you have expensive factory equipment sitting idle waiting for your cheap PC to start up. Once it was booted up and the videos were playing, it was fine once I limited the resolution, but it just couldn't handle the database side and the video processing was too slow to handle HD resolution. Guess it'll depend on what your software needs - processor speed, disk read/write speed, graphics, etc.
Actually, I think we're better off boxing it in and having a vent hole with a filter to the outside of our CNC room, rather than risking being too low on power...
Actually, I think we’re better off boxing it in and having a vent hole with a filter to the outside of our CNC room, rather than risking being too low on power…
That would be my first choice.
I think we’re better off boxing it in and having a vent hole with a filter to the outside of our CNC room
You may not need to vent it outside the room, just build/re-purpose a suitable size box to put the PC in, ensuring the box is big enough to allow air movement around the PC, cut some holes in the box to allow airlflow, and whack some filters over the holes, maybe something like a few of these E.g. one in the back and another in the side or front of the box:
You'll need another hole to get the cables in but you can dust proof them up using gromets or duct tape or something.
You'll need to make the front/side of the box removable, maybe like a door with some hinges so you can access the the PC, etc.
Provided there's nothing else other than Mach3 being used on the PC, then you don't really need that high a spec.
I suspect the recommendation is that you buy something reasonably new, and not absolute barebone spec.
I think I ran my original CNC on a Pentium 3 computer with Mach3.
If you want fanless, check out mini-itx.com, select boards, then there's an option for Fanless under the Special Features filter.
But you won't get a fanless i5 easily. Most fanless are the celeron/laptop range of processors, as they run far cooler anyway.
However given you've managed to run the machine on what I'm assuming isn't a fanless dekstop for this long, then I wouldn't be too concerned.
I would however recommend getting something with Win 10 Pro, so you get more control over when it updates (or just don't connect it to the internet!).
Why would you need win10 pro? if it's not on a domain (sounds like an off-network set up?) you just don't need the features Pro has over a home licence.
Also, mini PC's like NUC, mini-ITX etc, are more expensive and pretty much not upgradable, due to no space and silly SFF power supplies which are both crap and expensive.
If the OP has the space to box a regular midi tower desktop PC into a dust proof enclosure (a case around a case, if you will), that would make far much more sense as you'll also be able to upgrade it a bit in future.
Win 10 Pro still has access to legacy settings, which I find makes setting up for a CNC simpler, especially one that's going to rely on the network being configured correctly.
Plus it lets you defer updates, which can be useful if you are going to have it connected online.
Of course everybody is trying to push Win 11 now, but I have so far resisted.
TBH unless space is really a problem I'd get on eBay and look for a refurbished Dell or Lenovo desktop. Just search for an i5 most of the refurb sellers offer various memory/HDD/SSD/OS options and prices are pretty fair generally.
Surely the first thing to run out with the CNC would be an enclosure for the PC, fit a cheap Flexi duct to pull air in from elsewhere, use brush strip or bulkhead grommets for power and monitor cables maybe invest in a wireless keyboard/trackball jobbie if you haven't previously to eliminate a couple of wires, if it's sealed away in its own little box you can keep the shite out much better...
All this talk of enclosures, what have the previous machines been doing about dust for the last however many years?
If you're going down this road then you want to be a little bit careful because sticking a PC in a box == trapped heat. You need to keep dust out but still allow airflow.
How does this sound?
Shuttle XPC Fanless DS20U5 Intel Core i5-10210U
8GB 3200 MHz DDR4 SODIMM Memory Module
128GB M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD
It would be a custom built PC designed to run reliably 24/7. About £1000 all in. We'll buy something cheaper as the back-up PC.
"All this talk of enclosures, what have the previous machines been doing about dust for the last however many years?"
Being fine most of the time - but sometimes glitching or totally crashing, which is a total nightmare as everything in my small factory starts with the CNC machine, so if it's out of action for any length of time we rapidly run out of work to do - plus trying to get the CNC machine working again can eat hours of time when we should be doing something else profitable. One of our CNC PC's hard drive's failed last week so we swapped to the back-up PC - and then this morning that crashed and we had to open it up and clean it out before it would work again.
Shuttle XPC Fanless DS20U5 Intel Core i5-10210U
That's a laptop chip designed for fairly low power consumption (that's what the "U" code in the part number means). It will probably throttle itself if it's undercooled and expected to run processor intensive tasks. My guess is that it will be fine, but I don't know your software and how demanding it is on CPU performance.
pretty sure anything less than 10 years old would be fine tbh, given that OP's not even creating toolpaths etc on this machine & it's purely for running the CNC!My guess is that it will be fine
How does this sound?
Shuttle XPC Fanless DS20U5 Intel Core i5-10210U
8GB 3200 MHz DDR4 SODIMM Memory Module
128GB M.2 NVMe PCIe SSDIt would be a custom built PC designed to run reliably 24/7. About £1000 all in.
Like a rip off! 😀
£1k is on the pricey side but I suppose you're really looking to buy a greater degree of stability/reliability if you think you'll be getting that perhaps it is worth it.
Will you regularly be backing it up? If that M.2 Drive does go down having a recent image on another drive may well minimise your down time, that's got to be your ultimate contingency, can you Spec a second M.2 drive?
Its almost half the price here, so I'd be interested to know where the £1k price tag comes from:
https://www.icubes.co.uk/shuttle-xpc-fanless-ds20u-series.html#product-options-wrapper
And you could put a second back up drive in it for about £12:
https://www.cclonline.com/storage/solid-state-drives-ssds/
One of our CNC PC’s hard drive’s failed last week so we swapped to the back-up PC – and then this morning that crashed and we had to open it up and clean it out before it would work again.
Is routine maintenance an option?
Rather than a "backup" PC, have two identical PCs. Once a month (say), take an air duster to the offline one to blow all the crap out and then swap over to it. Rinse and repeat. Simple, and has the advantage that your entire disaster recovery strategy is being regularly tested rather than relying on something you pull out of a cupboard in an emergency that hasn't been powered on in a decade.
If your "something cheaper" is acceptable as your backup machine, is it not suitable as the main one also?
If the PC's are so critical to your business maybe worth investing in some training as well, or look for some outside support company. I know this will be expensive, but it sounds like you can loose a lot of money quickly with the CNC sat doing nothing.
I'd seriously consider a industrial pc din rail mounted. I always have used beckhoff machines as they are built for indu environment. Being as you are using Mach 3 you can but one without any twincat controller licence as you will not be using it. Obviously loads of other industrial PCs out there.
I'm glad we have so many excellent brains on here!
"Rather than a “backup” PC, have two identical PCs. Once a month (say), take an air duster to the offline one to blow all the crap out and then swap over to it. Rinse and repeat. Simple, and has the advantage that your entire disaster recovery strategy is being regularly tested rather than relying on something you pull out of a cupboard in an emergency that hasn’t been powered on in a decade."
This seems like a very good strategy. So on these grounds, how about something cheap and cheerful like this:
Intel Core i5-6500 6th Generation 3.20GHz Quad-Core CPU
8GB RAM - 240GB SSD - DVDRW + USB 3.0
Digital video outputs - DPort & HDMI - USB WiFi
Windows 10 Professional 64 Bit Operating System + Recovery Partition
"I’d seriously consider a industrial pc din rail mounted. I always have used beckhoff machines as they are built for indu environment. Being as you are using Mach 3 you can but one without any twincat controller licence as you will not be using it. Obviously loads of other industrial PCs out there."
These Beckhoff machines look cool! Did a quick google and gosh, they're not cheap!
I can't see the price on that but assume it's cheaper, just 2 things to consider:
That chip doesn't support windows 11, full stop - it's an arbitary Microsoft decision, the chip is perfectly capable of running windows 11. Probably not an issue for you though as it won't need to be networked/need security updates in future.
You'll need to check it has the serial/parallel ports you require for your CNC interface - they are not always standard ports on most PC's.
If not, you'll need to ensure the PC has space to install an expansion card, something like this: https://www.cclonline.com/search/?q=serial+card
Hard to see why more than one of these would be needed?
If they are as business critical as they sound it would be worth looking at two of them, taking some time to look at disk imaging / backups & regularly testing the backup system rather than waiting for a failure & trying to remember / conjuring up a process when your backs against it.
Also as the updated cnc is now network attached you’ll need to consider if they go on your business lan with internet connectivity or if you are going to setup a private lan with just the cnc & controlling pc?
The later isn’t hard but there are a few extra setup steps to consider/document.
That chip doesn’t support windows 11, full stop – it’s an arbitary Microsoft decision, the chip is perfectly capable of running windows 11. Probably not an issue for you though as it won’t need to be networked/need security updates in future.
The software supports Windows 2000, I doubt W11 is going to be a requirement any time soon. Though of course, that in itself comes with its own questions.
You’ll need to check it has the serial/parallel ports you require for your CNC interface – they are not always standard ports on most PC’s.
As I understood it, the old system used parallel ports and the replacement system does not. If that's not the case then again a rethink would be needed here. They'll need a 32-bit OS for a start.
All development on Mach3 stopped when Mach 4 was released, but Mach3 is still a very popular option.
Mach4 was a complete re-write by new developers, used a different scripting language, and not all motion controller manufacturers wrote new plugins for Mach4. Uptake in the hobbyist market has been pretty low, as there are lots of other options now, compared to when Mach3 was released.
I don't know which motion controller is being fitted, but they generally are not network connected as such (they can be, but it's definitely not recommended). They get connected directly to the computer to eliminate any latency issues with switches/hubs and avoiding any issues with fighting for bandwidth with other devices.
We’d need the PC by the CNC machine for zeroing the axes every sheet.
You can run, HDMI with embedded data (i.e. mouse and keyboard) over cat5. So if you really wanted to you could put everything in another room, and just put the screen and an KVM switch in the workshop.
But TBH that seems like overthinking it, if the old PC has survived a new one probably will. And a new PC will barely run the fan so won't draw crap in. Just put it on your maintenance to-do list to take the cover off and give it a squirt with an air gun every 6 months.
I'm slowly understanding all this! Decided it might be a good idea to use someone local, so popped to the nearest independent computer place and got this quote:
CiT Tower case (mid-sized)
Intel Core i5 10400 6 Core
Kingston 240GB SSD
8GB DDR4 RAM
H410 Mainboard
500w Power Supply
Windows 10
£399
We'd get two matching ones of these and then swap/clean them on a regular basis and have a box (with plenty of ventilation to the cleaner part of the factory) around them to keep the dust out.
They wouldn't be going on the network and would be running the CNC box via ethernet not a parallel port.
We’d get two matching ones of these and then swap/clean them on a regular basis and have a box (with plenty of ventilation to the cleaner part of the factory) around them to keep the dust out.
I'd not 'swap' them, but assuming that £399 is quite a bit less than the lost income if the machine was offline for a couple of hours/days it's probably worth having a spare with all the same software/drivers installed and ready to go so you can just swap them over and carry on.
Swings and roundabouts. It's not necessary but I figured it was worth ten minutes of faff periodically for the peace of mind of knowing that your disaster recovery policy is solid.
I suppose the million dollar question is, how much downtime is considered acceptable? Seconds, minutes, hours, days? Then work back from there, how do we make that happen.
One of a colleague's pet idioms is, "there's no point in spending a thousand pounds on a lock to the cupboard where you keep the pencils." What that misses of course is, you might have one hell of a lot of pencils...
Swings and roundabouts. It’s not necessary but I figured it was worth ten minutes of faff periodically for the peace of mind of knowing that your disaster recovery policy is solid.
I suppose the million dollar question is, how much downtime is considered acceptable? Seconds, minutes, hours, days? Then work back from there, how do we make that happen.
This in spades.
If there are issues with the ‘backup’ system it’s better to know well in advance of needing to use it with the option of rolling back to the other machine if you do discover an issue & fixing it when it’s not time critical.
One major benefit of using ethernet (and usb) motion controllers, is should something happen to the computer, you can pretty much grab any reasonable computer, install the software, and be up and running again.
I've even run Mach3 on my laptop, just to get a machine running again.
You just can't do that with older systems running a parallel port.
You won't get an off the shelf system with a proper parallel port (it's got to be one that sits on the PCI bus, not a usb converter) quickly now. And then you have to ensure the motherboard/parallel port were up to running a machine, as not all combinations will work, and they require being configured a specific way.
They were revolutionary for DIY CNC machines at the time (90s), but the parallel port is pretty much dead for all but those trying spend the least amount of money possible.
