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My daughter stopped at the shop on the way home last night. Its one of those free parking areas but you have to still get a ticket from the machine (free parking for 2 hours I think).
She forgot to get the ticket, came out of the shop 5 mins later to find a £100 parking fine on her windscreen.
Is there any way to contest this, as it seems somewhat unfair to get a whopping fine in a free parking area!
Is it a statutory Police or local authority ticket or a private "penalty charge notice" masquerading as a real ticket? i.e was it on the public highway or on private land?
Whichever it is, a carefully-worded letter of explanation might get her off.
You can try but if it is council I can't see what the get-out would be.
The thing is, the parking attendant doesn't know she got there 5 minutes earlier or had been there all day (and therefore overstayed the 2 hours free parking) because she didn't collect her free ticket and display it...
Its private land, not council
I had similar (in Southampton) but managed to grab warden and got it "torn up" there and then. Write a letter to contest it.mthere are two sides as the parking operator does not want people parking there all day for work when its meant for shoppers.
In that case you might have an argument that the fee (not fine) is not a fair reflection of their losses or something like that. Pepipoo has all the details of what to doIts private land, not council
Right. I've been here recently.
You will have received a Parking Charge Notice, not a fine or penalty.
The best advice is on Money Saving Expert forum. It's all a bit technical but read through the newbies thread. Take your time - read it more than once. Current advice is NOT to ignore private tickets.
1st - probably worth appealing to the shop - if they are the landowner they can get the ticket withdrawn.
Otherwise bide your time and see if they follow up with a letter (which means they are under some kind of Parking association and can get keeper details from DVLA).
Follow the instructions on the forum. DON'T admit who was driving, ever.
[url= http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163 ]Money Saving Expert Parking Ticket Forum[/url]
[url= http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822 ]MSE Newbie Thread[/url]
Unless it's police / council run, it's hard to see how they can enforce that. Private companies cannot issue fines, they can only recoup losses / damages. As it's a free car park, I'd be writing them a cheque for £0.00 as paid in full.
The thing is, the parking attendant doesn't know she got there 5 minutes earlier or had been there all day
If she'd only been there five minutes and got a ticket, I'd posit that the attendant knew exactly what time she arrived because they watched her drive in and ran over to the car as soon as she was out of sight.
Start by protesting to the shop. It can do no harm. And yes, be sure not to give name and address.
If she'd only been there five minutes and got a ticket, I'd posit that the attendant knew exactly what time she arrived because they watched her drive in and ran over to the car as soon as she was out of sight.
But that is an assumption, not a fact. The parking attendant might have just come on shift, been to the toilet etc...
Unfortunately there was a Supreme Court ruling recently. 'Beavis' is the case. Where it was argued that as he had overstayed it would be only reasonable to claim the extra it would have cost to extend the stay. Beavis lost.
It has set an unfortunate precedent. Granted the OPs case is different.
I launched into my ticket all guns blazing without being educated to the current situation.
I'll say again. Get yourself onto the Money Saving Expert Parking Ticket forum. You should get out of it, as long as you read up and follow their instructions / suggestions.
Freester - the MSE forum has a thread about that exact car park, and how someone appealed just November last year and had it cancelled. Full details including sample letter! I'll get her to try that, thanks!
or may just turn up periodically through the day and ticket any car without a chitty.The parking attendant might have just come on shift, been to the toilet etc...
While I don't think people should be able to park wherever and however long they like, most "parking enforcement" companies appear to be pretty scummy entities trying to scare/bully people out of large sums of cash.
Go to the shop along with a receipt (hope she bought something while in there) and ask for their assistance, I'm pretty sure shops don't like losing custom due to over zealous parking companies.
It would have saved a lot of bother if she had just got a ticket.
It would further saved some bother if she had picked up a ticket from another parker that covered the time in question so it could be sent as proof.
Don't think ahead, some folk
Start by protesting to the shop. It can do no harm. And yes, be sure not to give name and address.
Be interesting to see their response then
Dear anonymous parker,We're paying through the nose to put this open letter in the papers because you didn't bother to give us your name and address.
It would have saved a lot of bother if she had just got a ticket.
Well I never thought of that! Will have to try next time 😉
It would further saved some bother if she had picked up a ticket from another parker that covered the time in question so it could be sent as proof.
Not sure that would help - in fact probably muddy the waters as its a bit 'fraudy' and we'd then have to argue that the warden had got it wrong. Simpler to just question the validity of their claim and hope they will back off if we look like we'll make it hard work for them.
There's 4 shops there - Lidl, Argos, a pet store and a discount retailer. Doubt any one of them would be that bothered.
DON'T RUSH ANY RESPONSE.
Keep trawling through the MSE forum.
Don't do anything until they've followed up with a letter to the keeper's address (if they don't word the letter correctly this can be used in future appeals - if they don't send a letter you've got off).
In the meantime I'd be speaking to the manager of the store she visited then - if no joy - emailing the CEO seeing what they can do about it.
AGAIN DON'T ADMIT WHO WAS DRIVING (there is a technicality you can use further down the line if the initial appeals don't work) just say "this car that I am the keeper of received a ticket".
The MSE forum is good at reviewing your responses / letters etc. Just show them you've read all the stickies and draft a response yourself. They will help you get the technicalities right. Just don't expect them to write the letter for you.
Basically the follow up letter has to be sent after day 29 and by day 56 of the 'infringment'. If they don't do that you're off the hook anyway.
It would further saved some bother if she had picked up a ticket from another parker that covered the time in question so it could be sent as proof.
But if the attendant photographed the car to prove that there was no valid ticket being displayed in the position the instructions state then it would weaken any case she may have had.
Hm. The crime here is forgetting to get a parking ticket. Which she did.
Beavis has pretty much made all the advice on MSE etc redundant.
Basically you're now pretty much screwed. The only argument in this case is that the judge ruled that £80 was not an unreasonable penalty amount and they're asking for £100 so possibly unreasonable. Tough one to argue.
My biggest issue with the whole Beavis thing is that he defended himself and the judge even said had he got proper representation the outcome would probably have been different.
So because this bloke went on a one man crusade he's ****ed it up for everyone as the supreme court ruling can't be appealed.
Pay it. Don't do it again 🙂
Unless it's police / council run, it's hard to see how they can enforce that. Private companies cannot issue fines, they can only recoup losses / damages. As it's a free car park, I'd be writing them a cheque for £0.00 as paid in full.
Used to be the case, but that changed in two ways. First, in the past you could say you didn't know who was driving, and as the offence rested with the driver then they had no way of pursuing. The law was changed on that point a year or two back so that if the driver wasn't identified then the registered keeper became liable. Then there was the case that a private company couldn't levy a fine, only recoup costs. That was squashed with the case referenced above, where the court basically agreed that there had to be some sort of penalty to overstaying
"Applying these principles to Mr Beavis’s case, they decided that whilst the penalty rule was engaged, the £85 charge was not a penalty since ParkingEye had a legitimate interest in charging overstaying motorists which extended beyond the recovery of any loss. The company was managing car parks in the interests of the retail outlets, their customers and the public at large and had a legitimate interest in influencing the conduct of the contracting party which is not satisfied by the mere right to recover damages for breach of contract*. ParkingEye could not charge a sum out of all proportion to its interests but there was no reason to suppose that £85 was out of all proportion. There was no suggestion about what an unreasonable charge might be"
IGNORE AT YOUR PERIL. Best advice as above is to throw yourself on the mercy of the shop itself, but if you want to try to fight on legalities then you have a pretty weak hand.
* finally it comes down to whether £80 / 85 / 100 is high enough to be a disincentive but low enough to not be unreasonable. And TBH, I'm fine with the law as it is now. If all that was enforceable was the actual loss, then you could go into a car park, not buy a ticket (or buy one for an hour) and then stay as long as you like. If you stay longer than you paid for, no worries, just offer the difference once you get caught, or if you don't get caught then well done, you've stuck it to the man. That's not right in my book.
I've got a appeal going on with Parking Eye at the moment. They claim I was there for 3hr 30 (30 minutes over) which incurs are £60 / £90 fine. Trouble is that I left immediately after entering (went to wrong retail park) but returned later to go to Burger King. I told them what happened and provided a card statement with the Burger King transaction but they refused the appeal saying I hadn't provided enough evidence! What about them providing evidence that I was actually in the car park during the whole period because a photo going in and one going out certainly doesn't prove that!
The MSE forums are pretty detailed but I haven't got the time or inclination to fight it as far as some people do, which I guess is what they are relying upon.
Ask for it to be referred to the parking Appeals service ombudsman thingy. If your story is right then evidence will exist in the form of your car leaving the car park shortly after arriving, and then reentering at a later time. it's just they have that evidence which the ombudsman has the authority to ask them to check. You alone probably can't get them to do it.
I haven't got the time or inclination to fight it as far as some people do, which I guess is what they are relying upon.
Bingo. Don't let them get away with that.
[edit] POPLA - had a mental blcok on their name.
except of course, [i]they're not[/i], their business model is designed around people incurring charges/penalties. If PE were 100% successful in "parking enforcement" they'd go bust very quicklyThe company was managing car parks in the interests of the retail outlets, their customers and the public at large
[edit] POPLA - had a mental blcok on their name.
They haven't given me the POPLA code yet as they has extended the appeal time for me to provide further evidence.
I haven't read the above posts but I have experience here. You must wait for a notice to keeper for to arrive in the post which asks you to identify the driver of the vehicle. The ticket is the responsibility of the driver of the vehicle if which they do not know the identity of and therefore can not prosecute thus far.
Thy have 14 days to send a notice to keeper form to you. This is statutory as detailed in the protections of freedom act 2012. Many firms fall outside this 14 day mandatory timescale. And in this case if they fall outside of this then you write to them and quote the law. Also say that you are not appealing it, you are outright refusing it. Also say that any further correspondence received could be considered harassment.
I have a few templates which you can have if you wish. Email in profile and let's hope they take too long to write to you.
^^^^ That's all good advice but because the initial ticket was on the windscreen they have to follow up within day 29 and by day 56...
Just ignore them. If / when they get as far as court then say you didnt receive anything. They will then quote the rules that state its not their problem as they have to show they sent it. Ask for that evidence. Most of them cant. They can prove from their system that the a letter was generated, but not that it was sent.
Thats bollocks advice too!
They only have to show it was "deemed delivered" - nothing more.
The system showing it generated/franked is sufficient in court to allow 3 working days from that date for it to be deemed delivered.
Irrespective of if it is or not - makes no difference. The notice is deemed served.
CPR sets this out - try it out if you fancy your chances but you'll be crying on your cornflakes.
POPLA is the only system worth doing - it costs them £25'ish to issue you the number.
Show the evidence to them and they side with you most of the time unless you really have been a div.
Nobody has suggested the OP claims he is a freeman of the land yet!
Standards people! Standards!
I forget their name but there's one parking co that is currently denied access to the DVLA database (they were abusing the system) so if you get a ticket they can't chase you for it. They expect you to respond to the ticket but if you don't they have no way of chasing you.
Think its UKPC - Details on MSE site. Hopefully this applies in your case.
The only argument in this case is that the judge ruled that £80 was not an unreasonable penalty amount and they're asking for £100 so possibly unreasonable. Tough one to argue.
The problem with forum legal advice is that it tends to get very confused, like this.
Doesn't it sadden people that all this is about trying to defend some one who broke the rules?
If you wish to make use of facilities you abide by the conditions set. The reasonableness (to you) of these is irrelevant and you have accepted them by going there. Stupidity is no defence in any case.
OP - I think same car park (Soton?), I got a fee notice ticket for going over the free period by I think it was about 14 minutes (did get a ticket from machine though). That was a couple of years back. The advice I got then was just to ignore it if not from the Council or Police (it wasn't, some private firm) and not to enter into any correspondence at all. I didn't get any follow up letters. I assume they just hoped most people would panic and cough up. Looks like things have changed though going on what others say above.
[url= http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/judge-slams-parkingeyes-lack-of.html ]similar[/url]I got a fee notice ticket for going over the free period by I think it was about 14 minutes
[url= http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/bogus-parkingeye-claim-for-riverside.html ]Parking eye ANPR has a history of this [/url], I'd guess PE know damn well that drivers have left and returned but also know that drivers are going to struggle to prove it without access to their anpr stats.I've got a appeal going on with Parking Eye at the moment. They claim I was there for 3hr 30 (30 minutes over) which incurs are £60 / £90 fine. Trouble is that I left immediately after entering (went to wrong retail park) but returned later to go to Burger King.
Mattsccm that was kind of my view originally, we in the uk like to bitch and moan about drivers being "[i]persecuted[/i]" for breaking the rules, but once you read up on* the scheming, shoddy and outright dodgy stuff the parking companies get up to, then you start to side with the driver.
*normally after being enforced to look into the matter 😉
Doesn't it sadden people that all this is about trying to defend some one who broke the rules?
The parking was free if she'd got a ticket. If she was trying to dodge a parking fee then fair enough, suck it up, but they haven't lost out. If it was a £15 fine then I'd still say pay it and put it down to experience. But £100 for 5 mins parking??
but once you read up on* the scheming, shoddy and outright dodgy stuff the parking companies get up to, then you start to side with the driver.
^^this, and this again
But £100 for 5 mins parking??
So you say. How do i know you haven't been there all day? [devil's advocate / playing the role of evil parking co]
The penalty has to be enough to be a deterrent without being so high as to be unreasonable, and that is now allowable after the court ruling. Sorry, that's the rules now.
Otherwise, as per my example above, people would park all day, and then claim they'd only been there five minutes and if they lost that argument, then £15 is still easily swallowed. There's no real incentive to play by the rules in that case whereas if the penalty's £80, there is.
Doesn't it sadden people that all this is about trying to defend some one who broke the rules?
I am sympathetic but in this case, you're the one losing out because society at large can't be trusted to play fair. Whether your daughter did it maliciously or in error, she has to carry the can for the genuinely dishonest as well. You haven't a leg to stand on technically, hence why i said before your best bet is to get the shop involved.