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Think how much better it would be if private cars / minicabs / black cabs were banned from
the very heart of London. all towns and cities
FTFY
Although I'd stop at private cars. The subsequent improvement in public transport would be worth it and might (or might not) reduce taxi use anyway. But Taxis still do a usefull job in London e.g. if you're in a wheelchair as not all platforms are accessible.
Think how much better it would be if private cars / minicabs / black cabs were banned from the very heart of London.
Certainly ban Private cars in central London, Cabs do serve those with mobility issues, perhaps only allow them in the very centre if they have a "blue badge" passenger(?) But also rigidly keep them under 20mph, and give more of the roads over to bicycles and maybe even, god forbid, pedestrians...
Personally I would like to see London shit-can all the rental scooters Lime & Co. can get in the sea! They're just a blight, dumped en-mass making sections of pavement un-usable. While I'm not a fan of E-scooters if they're going to exist I think a regulated private ownership model where owner/user take some responsibility for their doom-scooters (including parking) actually makes much better sense now.
The thing is you can't really have any useful discussions about how to use streets better or organise transport in a city until you've removed the majority of cars.
It is only going to get worse.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/half-of-new-cars-too-wide-for-parking-spaces
I have have really noticed an increase in pavement parking recently.
It's not just SUVs. A recent car park encounter with a lady driving a Porsche Taycan left her red (gammon) faced after she couldn't get out of it once parked. She glared at me, shouted at me (I was watching to make sure she didn't scratch or dent my 20y old BMW) but I was perfectly parked in the middle of my bay with car only 1.7m wide. Her Taycan by comparisson was almost 2.2m wide. The sides of her car were within 10cm of the edge of the bay and her doors were 150-200mm thick at the widest. Once opened, she had barely 150mm to squeeze her ass out through the door.
Again, indulgance over consideration. 2320kg to go to MnS and park as close as she possibly could to the store.
1600kg is probably actually too heavy, but it's a good start. Almost no one able bodied needs a 1600kg vehicle of any kind, and certainly not in a well connected capital city with excellent public transport like Paris.
It's not just the weight that's bad in an accident with a more vulnerable road user, heavier, more expensive cars are much worse for the environment at the manufacturing stage. Look how much more CO2 is produced manufacturing even something that appears vaguely acceptable like a Mondeo compared to a supermini-
Citroen C1 - 6 tonnes CO2
Ford Mondeo - 17 tonnes CO2
Land Rover Discovery - 35 tonnes CO2
Driving around in a Mondeo sized estate all the time because once a year you take some stuff to the dump or can't be arsed to put your mountain bike on a rack on the outside of a smaller car isn't a good enough justification for having such a big car, especially in a city.
It's a shame the scheme won't apply to residents - making people pay through the nose to take a car into a city is a great idea. Less CO2 at manufacture, less CO2 emitted, fewer particulates emitted (including from brakes and tyres in heavy cars, including from EVs) and less likely to kill someone if you do hit them. I'm glad that Edinburgh is starting to consider a scheme to stop SUVs driving into the city - that'd be really great.
A Taycan isn't 2.2m wide, not even with mirrors? It is 5m long though, which is crazy.
I miss my i3, which was 4m long and spacious inside. Current car is much better apart from dimensions. Should be a wider choice of small ev available before my lease is up, then I'll be back into a compact vehicle again.
A Taycan isn’t 2.2m wide, not even with mirrors?
TBF he said 'almost'. I think 2144mm qualifies as 'almost 2200mm'
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/taycan/practicality
It is 5m long though, which is crazy
Mondeo hatch is 4.87m long*, so not that crazy, mind you probably explains why we could get our tandem in one with just the front wheel off
*now have a V40 which is 500mm shorter 👍
I think that one answer needs to be as much positive as negative.
Lets fully fund commuter bikes under £1k.
Lets fully fund and prioritise active travel routes.
Lets find a way to incentivise (full size) scooters / motorbikes, ebikes etc
Lets create an ultra small class of 'urban' vehicle like Kei cars and ensure there is a big financial benefit to buying one.
Lets start to work out ways of making 20 min cities a reality for many.
etc.
To only focus on a negative campaign is not as powerful or sustainable in my view.
The Taycan's rump is almost as wide as it's wing mirrors too due to the coke bottle shape of the car. Length isnt as much of an issue, but the overall footprint difference compared to a 3 series estate is quite remarkable. It's almost 3.5sqm bigger...that's a lot in a car that's actually only 600mm longer!
I think that one answer needs to be as much positive as negative.
Lets fully fund commuter bikes under £1k.
Lets fully fund and prioritise active travel routes.
Lets find a way to incentivise (full size) scooters / motorbikes, ebikes etc
Lets create an ultra small class of ‘urban’ vehicle like Kei cars and ensure there is a big financial benefit to buying one.
Lets start to work out ways of making 20 min cities a reality for many.
etc.To only focus on a negative campaign is not as powerful or sustainable in my view.
Sorry but fully funded commuter bikes would then be treated like shit, it's better for things to be subsided rather than zero cost.
It's already way cheaper to motorbike or travel by tube or bus in London but there are still stacks of oversize personal vehicles clogging up the roads and making alternative means of transport unpleasant, so sticks are required - the carrots are already in place.
Interesting that there is an EU max vehicle width applied to lorries etc & cars are the same, perhaps we need a lower limit applied to private vehicles.
Vive la Austin 7 - 1.6m wide x 3.0m long.
It’s already way cheaper to motorbike or travel by tube or bus in London but there are still stacks of oversize personal vehicles clogging up the roads and making alternative means of transport unpleasant, so sticks are required – the carrots are already in place.
True, but it would be worse without the current sticks. The solution involves escalating sticks. e.g. changing the current CC and ULEZ in London to something more like the rest of TfL where you pay escalating amounts by zone.
Vive la Austin 7 – 1.6m wide x 3.0m long.
It's only incrementally less bad than large cars taking over a whole street. But I was surprised to find recently that a Citroen C4 Cactus (i.e. not a very small car, a decently sized hatchy sort of thing) was under 970kg. How is a Golf/Octavia 50% heavier?
I think that one answer needs to be as much positive as negative.Lets fully fund commuter bikes under £1k.
Lets fully fund and prioritise active travel routes.
Lets find a way to incentivise (full size) scooters / motorbikes, ebikes etc
Lets create an ultra small class of ‘urban’ vehicle like Kei cars and ensure there is a big financial benefit to buying one.
Lets start to work out ways of making 20 min cities a reality for many.
etc.To only focus on a negative campaign is not as powerful or sustainable in my view.
Look at the backlash that even fairly minor schemes like Low Traffic Neighbourhoods, School Streets etc attract. The nub of the problem is that people don't want change, they don't like change. Given the positivitiy of "look, we can make these streets incrementally better and safer", it's met with howls of outrage and protests and vandalism (admittedly from a noisy minority) that basically wants things exactly as they are, even if it means they still have to sit in traffic. And that's before you get to the wild and insane conspiracy crap about 15/20-min cities!
It needs much greater stick - carrots simply don't work to anything like the same extent.
I'm not a huge fan of simply increasing the price of things because that can entrench a rich/poor divide where the rich simply drive in anyway cos they can afford to but pricing is definitely at least part of the solution. If you have a parking space and charge £20/hr for it, that stops anyone poor but allows millionaires to simply say "sod it" and they can park there because they can afford it. If on the other hand you remove the parking space entirely and convert it to cycle parking or a bus stop or a parklet then that is far more equitable cos then no-one can park there!
"The Taycan’s rump is almost as wide as it’s wing mirrors too due to the coke bottle shape of the car. Length isnt as much of an issue, but the overall footprint difference compared to a 3 series estate is quite remarkable. It’s almost 3.5sqm bigger…that’s a lot in a car that’s actually only 600mm longer!"
I'll take your word for it then, but the official dimensions excluding mirrors is under 2M. Still, that's about as wide as a decently sized van. I have no clue why it's so big. My tiny mind suggests that it's a saloon pretending to be a sports car, so it needs to be wider to stay horizontal in the bends?
**** me sideways, just looked up the Galaxy I used to own, which was an an absolute shed. Smaller than a Taycan, and only marginally smaller than my Polestar 🙁
If VED was proportionate to road damage, it would indeed increase exponentially with weight. I think the calculation for road wear is in proportion to the fourth power of axle weight.
A light vehicle (500kg - 1 axle 250kg) with 2 axles would cause 256 times less road wear than a 2000kg vehicle (1 axle 1000kg).
Look at the backlash that even fairly minor schemes like Low Traffic Neighbourhoods, School Streets etc attract. The nub of the problem is that people don’t want change, they don’t like change. Given the positivitiy of “look, we can make these streets incrementally better and safer”, it’s met with howls of outrage and protests and vandalism (admittedly from a noisy minority) that basically wants things exactly as they are, even if it means they still have to sit in traffic. And that’s before you get to the wild and insane conspiracy crap about 15/20-min cities!
There is a danger in conflating loud culture war bellends with the reality of public opinion, going back to the original topic despite the campaigns and froth only 2.25% of Parisians could be arsed to defend the SUV with a vote.
The whole referendum was more or less a 'Galic shrug' from 2 million people when faced with an environmental initiative they actually had a say on, which to me is more or less just acceptance.
The loud noises against come from those with a vested interest, trying to skew the public narrative. Just like with ULEZ here in the UK, it's mostly a red button issue with those terminally divorced Dads but nobody who's opinion actually matters... 😉
if you removed double glazing
I’m still trying to process the implications of this comment.
Double glazing? In cars?!?
More generally, lighter cars are better cars. Some way of rewarding manufactures for reducing weight, and consumers for choosing that, seems good. Or a way of charging or restricting those making the opposite choices if need be. I get that an equivalent electric car weighs more… but all the car brands are going big on making electric SUVs… they, and we need saving from that trend. Hell… even Smart are pushing an electric SUV… for city use. Madness.
1600kg really isn't much nowadays - my 1st gen basic stripped out Berlingo with no safety features is ~1300kg, newer ones are way over 1600kg.
Double glazing? In cars?!?
Yes, it's a thing.
I follow this guy on YouTube and found this latest video quote interesting
Emissions of what? Where have they not fallen? I had to turn it off after the first 20 seconds.
I have two sons in London and getting there by train from Cardiff is ridiculously cost prohibitive, while getting between them once there is nigh near impossible
I have to say that's not my experience. PT in London is pretty good in most places. Yes, it's fairly annoying to get from some suburbs especially when they are both on opposite sides of the city. But there's really not much else that can be done - London is just big and dense. There are tube stations everywhere, there's a train every few minutes. They recently built a new train line across the city and it cost bajillions and distrupted the city for a decade. 5 million people use London PT every day. At peak times there are 543 trains all in motion around London!
As for cars - last time I went to the City during the work day there were very few cars around, but thousands of people walking all over the roads. And at the weekend almost no-one there at all, cars or otherwise.
GWR from the SW to London is horrendously expensive. Bristol to London costs me more than London to Brussels...quite a lot more.
Once in London, it's gloriously easy and cheap to move around. The new QE line is now almost ridiculously fast to get across London. It used to take 35-50 mins to get to Mile End and it's now 17mins.
GWR from the SW to London is horrendously expensive. Bristol to London costs me more than London to Brussels…quite a lot more.
Weird. I can get a cheap ticket much more often than not. Bristol to Manchester on the other hand always seems to be expensive.
can’t be arsed to put your mountain bike on a rack on the outside of a smaller car
Personally I can't be arsed gambling on whether my bikes will still be attached to my car when I come back from having a wee.
1600kg really isn’t much nowadays
Agreed, which is why we need to address it.
Have at it, I look forward to you convincing people that all the crash protection features developed over the last 30odd years are no longer worth having. Let us know how you get on.
Have at it, I look forward to you convincing people that all the crash protection features developed over the last 30odd years are no longer worth having. Let us know how you get on.
I see. So you're saying cars that weigh less than 1600kg don't have those features.
Good one.
I see. So you’re saying cars that weigh less than 1600kg don’t have those features.
Good one.
ABS was only available as part of the £800 'comfort pack' option with Aircon when my 1300kg Berlingo was new 20years ago. It certainly doesn't have any side protection.
Modern Berlingo weighs 1800kg. It's gained a bit in size in 29years but it's still effectively a tinny little van with some seats in that's now half a ton heavier, but safer.
I am bazzing about in a Toyota IQ at the moment which weighs less than 1000kg - it has modern safety features but doesn't have space for the dog/bike/shopping/French mistress though
I see. So you’re saying cars that weigh less than 1600kg don’t have those features.
+1 I'm pretty sure my sub 1500kg Volvo v40 has all desired safety features and seats 5 adults or fits 2 bikes & 2 adults in comfort.
Edit - Berlingo is a van - not a car, you want to drive around in a heavy large vehicle (because it is) then pay the price. And it's about the same size as an Evoque or XC40 btw
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/citro%C3%ABn/c4-cactus/7863
965kg
4/5 stars
I'm still incredulous how it's so light compared to the competition, is it made from unobtanium or something?
Modern Berlingo weighs 1800kg. It’s gained a bit in size in 29years but it’s still effectively a tinny little van with some seats in that’s now half a ton heavier, but safer.
They're not "tiny little", never have been. Park it next to something like a Discovery 3, the Disco's wingmirrors stick out further, and has a longer bonnet (by a good foot I'll admit) for the longitudinal mounted engine, but otherwise it's inchers here and there.
It's only small if the frame of reference is something like a Sprinter or T4/5/6.
I'm not knocking them, I bought one, but I bought it because it was massive (by car standards).
I'm at 1450kg apparently.
In a 2020 car with a 2L turbo, that I consider big (4673mm x 2029mm), and the one thing I don't like about it is parking it as its the largest car I've ever owned. I presume dripping in airbags and crumple zones etc*.
So how ICE cars are getting to 2-300kg more than that without being considered gross overconsumption I'm honestly a bit bewildered.
*We've pretty much reached the peak of physical safety features in the last 10 years or so, most recent safety developments have been in software/tech.
I know, right. My wife scraped our 1400kg car on a bollard last year, we were cut free from the wreckage and had to run for our lives as our car was engulfed in a fire ball.
The French have a bit of a record of making "silly rules" to maintain thingds "as they should be", and im behind it for the most part.
I think im correct in saying bookshops are not allowed to do "deals" or "offers", to prevent the waterstone's of the world muscling out the small independant book sellers.
The UCi seem to make a lot of bike rules to keep bikes "bike shaped".
An Paris is the home of the City car. The Twingo and the 2CV. Im all for resisting the "arms race" of car size
I think the first vehicle I saw when I got off the train this morning was a cargobike. I can totally buy into the way it’s going.