[Closed] Parents protesting against LGBT acceptance

I thought that it was quite interesting that none of the far right had picked up on this given the religion/ethnicity of the vast majority of the protesters…

It's a head explode moment for many of them, as they are probably upset they didn't think of it first.

But sorry it goes back to the all religion out of schools apart from to study it. In the recent same sex marrige debate in Oz Catholic schools were sending home what can only be described as bigoted and offensive material to kids on the topic.

We are either inclusive of all or we are not inclusive.

Can't beleive the schools capitulated to that nonsense.

To be fair I teach in a catholic boys school in Aus (I'm not catholic) and our school came out and supported it and supports gay students.

I agree with you Tom.It makes my blood boil tbh. I suspect it also has to be reported with extra sensitivity due to the religion of the majority of the protesters in the case above. I say let those that are offended ,home school their kids,at their own expense.

I work near to the area and commute through it all. It's a 99 percent Muslim area from what I know and the teachings say that LGBT is a no no. I don't agree with the parents but it's hardly surprising knowing the area and I bet the school backs down on it and gives in.

'incompatible with the teachings of Islam'

we are a secular society - the 'teachings' of Islam are extra to the curriculum in this country. If we let the parents get their way then we will just end up with the kids being just as ignorant as their parents.

The kids should be made to watch Ricky Gervais's 'teachings' on religion.

Intolerance is intolerance, however you dress it up

'My religion compels me to be an intolerant bigot' should not be used to legitimise it

I wonder if they think other forms of intolerance ie islamophobia should be indulged and placated?

I suspect it also has to be reported with extra sensitivity due to the religion of the majority of the protesters in the case above

Of course it doesn't, and they can get right to **** whatever religion they've chosen. Religion is a choice but being LGBT isn't. The ones who should be treated with respect are those that don't have a choice and don't anyone ****ing dare use medieval superstition to make denying education and acceptance A Good Thing.

I liked the irony of the parents saying they didn't want their children being indoctrinated.

If you were LGBT, would this make it acceptable to be Islamophobic?

I can appreciate their fears TBH.

I spent 2 years as a Tudor footman after a particularly engaging history lesson.

teach nothing about religion or aetheism until 20 :

I ferry a few kids about to various clubs on a rota with other parents.

This conversation occurred in my car last week.

Kid 1 : You know that Bohemian Rhapsody is about Freddie Mercury?
Kid 2 : Yeah
Kid 1 : And that he was gay?
Kid 2 : Yeah
Kid 1 : And he died?
Kid 2 : Yeah
Kid 1 : Well, if he had kept himself pure that wouldn’t have happened.
Kid 2 : Eh?
Me : Eh?

Where does a 10 year old get that from? He is a product of a Catholic School and is going to the only High School in the borough that was under subscribed. If that is what they are taught no wonder people aren’t exactly knocking the door down to go.

Proud that Kid 2 is my lad. To him Freddie was the guy in the yellow jacket that got 80,000 people to sing.

If you were LGBT, would this make it acceptable to be Islamophobic?

To repeat what I said above
We are either inclusive of all or we are not inclusive.

This is a religious thing, not a Muslim thing. Family in my kids' primary school have taken their kids out and home schooled them because they think the education is incompatible with their (Catholic) faith.

He is a product of a Catholic School

Why do you think he learnt that at school?

I went to Catholic Schools in the 70's and 80's and we didn't get taught stuff like that then.

It's far more likely that came from his nut job parents.

A school has a lot less influence on a child's thinking than their parents.

I remember arguing with my mum about evolution when I was a child - fortunately she's mellowed a bit from her Catholic roots, but we didn't just arrive, we've evolved from primates, and single cell creatures before that.

Religion is a big causer of trouble. Full stop. It's made up baloney at best.

But sorry it goes back to the all religion out of schools apart from to study it

This is nothing to do with Religion in schools.
It’s to do with religious [b]parents [/b]not liking the school discussing things in a secular manner, that don’t match up with their own religious beliefs.

Maybe. Probably just coincidence. It just struck me as odd that the Catholic school that wasn't turning people away.

If you were LGBT, would this make it acceptable to be Islamophobic?

To repeat what I said above
We are either inclusive of all or we are not inclusive.

What even abhorrent right wing opinions?

Religion is a choice but being LGBT isn’t.

I think a lot of the parents are failing at that first step. In the last week I have heard a couple of people on TV still claiming it is a choice.

I went to Catholic Schools in the 70’s and 80’s and we didn’t get taught stuff like that then.

Oddly enough, even as acceptance has been coming to wider society, I see that a lot of religious teaching has doubled down on homophobia and intolerance against other religious.

I think we should take a lead from Italy and their vaccination compulsion. If the parents are crazy the kids cant come to school!

I heard that this story was more about the WAY it was being taught, rather than the subject being some sort of taboo... 💁‍♂️

I heard one of the protesters being interviewed. They say they object to homosexuality being 'promoted'. It was pointed out to them that the kids were being taught about the existence of alternative lifestyles, and that was very different to promoting it

He just sounded to me like someone inherently intolerant and homophobic trying (badly) to justify their intolerance and homophobia

I heard that this story was more about the WAY it was being taught, rather than the subject being some sort of taboo

From who?

we are a secular society

No, we really are not, sadly.

I do my best to be considerate to religion but, "this is incompatible with the teachings of faith X". Well if your teachings are incompatible with the world, it's not the world that's wrong and it's not the world that's going to change. If you want to make your faith durable and survivable you've got to make it compatible with the world.

Ironically, this is a big part of how islam started out- it came into being in the melting point of faiths in a very mature and crowded market and gained initial success (and survival) by relating well with its surroundings rather than being impractical and adversarial. It's why the prophet spent so much time on making sure it could play well with christianity, judaism and zoroastrianism- if it didn't, those bigger established religions would have had his head on a stick.

😆 Quite the unprovoked attack on Catholic schools going on here!

It’s why the prophet spent so much time on making sure it could play well with christianity

That doesn’t seem to be working out so well these days does it? 😳

I remember arguing with my mum about evolution when I was a child – fortunately she’s mellowed a bit from her Catholic roots, but we didn’t just arrive, we’ve evolved from primates, and single cell creatures before that.

Religion is a big causer of trouble. Full stop. It’s made up baloney at best.

Your mum obviously didn't get the memo! 😆

In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution, provided that Christians believe that God created all things and that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces.

Doubt she'd have heard of Georges Lemaître either! 😆

Quite the unprovoked attack on Catholic schools going on here!

well they deserve it TBH

I've been accepted for a PGDE in biology & science. You'd think I could teach in any school but no

https://www.nomorefaithschools.org/news/2018/06/how-to-teach-in-a-catholic-state-school-in-scotland

so even though catholic schools are funded by the government in this day in age of equality I 'll have a 1/5 of schools out with my reach because of religion. I'd understand if they were funded by the catholic school rather than the public purse.

If it hadn't of been for personal experience I'd have agreed that religion is the root of intolerance, but bigotry prevails across class, creed and religion. Several kids have moved from the middle class village secular state school due to overt and institutional discrimination, one because they are gender fluid and the kids and teachers were unaccepting, I moved mine to a Catholic school due to racism.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the diversity and inclusion of others at the RC school, my kid's best friend is Muslim and they have kids from 9 different countries in their class. My kids have learned a lot more about different beliefs and acceptance than they ever would have at the secular school.

In short, being an eijit is universal no matter how you attempt to justify it.

anagallis_arvensis

Member

I think we should take a lead from Italy and their vaccination compulsion. If the parents are crazy the kids cant come to school!

Trouble with that is we end up with home schooling or even no schooling for these kids - so they grow up even less integrated.

Trouble with that is we end up with home schooling or even no schooling for these kids – so they grow up even less integrated.

True, but at least other kids dont suffer their parents backwards hate filled view and are taught about LGBT rights etc.

As Mr Spock would say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or few!

poah

Member
Quite the unprovoked attack on Catholic schools going on here!

well they deserve it TBH

I’ve been accepted for a PGDE in biology & science. You’d think I could teach in any school but no

https://www.nomorefaithschools.org/news/2018/06/how-to-teach-in-a-catholic-state-school-in-scotland

so even though catholic schools are funded by the government in this day in age of equality I ‘ll have a 1/5 of schools out with my reach because of religion. I’d understand if they were funded by the catholic school rather than the public purse.

Catholic schools, are a bit Catholic, shocker! 😆

It doesn't exclude you, you just need to be willing to follow some of the Catholic bits, of the Catholic school. That's not really unreasonable tbf.

It doesn’t exclude you, you just need to be willing to follow some of the Catholic bits, of the Catholic school. That’s not really unreasonable tbf.

Or shock horror!! We leave the religious indoctrination crap to churches etc. and education to schools. Publicly funded so teachings for all.

In the 80”s I was taught at a catholic school, was taught by nuns for some lessons (from the attached Convent)
I did an A Level in Theology at that school and was taught by an Atheist. He was also Head of RE at the school for years.

He was quite open about his atheism, but he was also totally respectful and tolerant of anyone else’s religious views. (Not the argumentative smug toss bag normally associated with atheism 😉 )

So it’s totally possible to teach at a catholic school and not be religious. You just need to be a really good teacher that the school wants 👍

mikewsmith

Or shock horror!! We leave the religious indoctrination crap to churches etc. and education to schools. Publicly funded so teachings for all.

You could but that would go against how people want their children educated. Why should you be the one to determine how people educate their children?

You could but that would go against how people want their children educated. Why should you determine how people are educated?

People are free to top up the education with religious crap on the weekends.

The other reasons around indoctrination of minors is the big one though.

But that still doesn't answer the question, why should you determine the policy? A fairly large proportion of the population disagree with you.

Strangely most parents have a hidden agenda for their kids, they train,bribe,indoctrinate,brain wash them into things they believe in, just like,schools,the religious lot,the boy scouts, girl guides etc, all have teachings they want the kids to obey.

To try and convert those teaching etc to be relevant in 2019 onwards is going to be difficult, remember, the evil woman who was called thatcher who introduced clause 28, the police forces who would raid gay pubs and clubs, the gay men and women who committed suicide or where killed in hate crimes.

Thats why we need education and training of the young people, no matter of which book their parents read, or which newspaper promotes their way of thinking.

Got the stats for that??

There are a massive collection of church and religious schools kicking around the place that end up hoovering up kids. Doesn't mean everyone wants their kids to get the special extra lessons

Why should you be the one to determine how people educate their children?

Because he's paying?

anagallis_arvensis

Member
Why should you be the one to determine how people educate their children?

Because he’s paying?

Does no-one else pay tax?

Still interested to see the stats though 😉

Part of this still w raps up in the campaign to get people to be more honest in the religion box on the census,.

The Church of England is facing a catastrophic fall in the proportion of young adults who describe themselves as Anglican as data shows an acceleration towards a secular society.

For the first time, more than half the population say they have no religion, and the generation gap on religious affiliation is widening, according to the British Social Attitudes survey.

Only 3% of adults under 24 describe themselves as Anglican – fewer than the 5% who identify as Catholic. Almost three out of four 18- to 24-year-olds say they have no religion, a rise of nine percentage points since 2015.

Among the next age group, 25-34, only 5% identify as Anglicans and 9% say they are Catholic. The presence in the UK of young European workers may be a factor in the relatively high proportion of young Catholics.

Among all adults in Britain, only 15% consider themselves to be Anglican, compared with almost one in three at the turn of the century, according to BSA data. Nine percent overall identify as Catholics, 17% as “other Christian” and 6% say they belong to non-Christian religions.

More generally, 53% of all adults describe themselves as having no religious affiliation, up from 48% in 2015. The latest figure is the highest since the BSA survey began tracking religious affiliation in 1983, when 31% said they had no religion.

“How can it be right that 97% of young people today are not Anglicans, but some 20% of the state schools to which their children will go belong to the C of E? More generally, how can the Church of England remain in any meaningful sense the national legally established church, when it caters for such a small portion of the population?” said Andrew Copson, Humanists UK’s chief executive.

Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said: “These statistics indicate that the time has come for this country to have a serious debate about the place of religion in our society.”

The BSA data called into question the existence of faith schools and reserved seats for bishops in the House of Lords, he added.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/half-uk-population-has-no-religion-british-social-attitudes-survey

mikewsmith

Subscriber
Still interested to see the stats though 😉

What stats? People still send their children to faith schools, that's the only stats that matter.

Can I just ask.

Why is there is a discussion going on about getting religion out of schools because it is brainwashing kids?

This thread is about [b]religious parents[/b] not wanting schools teaching their “home brainwashed” kids how to be tolerant and inclusive.

It's the kafflick schools fault for some reason! 😆

And that's a great thing in West Coast Scotland, really drives home the "us and them" mentality when the proddies are in one school and the tims are in another.

My daughter has no idea why she shares a playground with children she went to nursery with but now attend a "different" school (in actuality nothing more than a partition internally divides the two primaries). It's stupid and quite honest causes more problems than it solves. I'm guessing you've never had the classic "whit school did ye go tae?" question.

I’m guessing you’ve never had the classic “whit school did ye go tae?” question.

Who?

The discussion moved on to faith schools in general, something I disagree with on the general principle that children should not be segregated based on adult choices.

Sorry Neal, I was addressing Seosamh with that question

Why is there is a discussion going on about getting religion out of schools because it is brainwashing kids?

This thread is about religious parents not wanting schools teaching their “home brainwashed” kids how to be tolerant and inclusive.

Because if you allow parents to promote a religious based curriculum where they can pick and choose the bits you like it becomes another religious school. It's why it's key to keep a level playing field with these things, want one out keep them all out.

You over play the religious aspect. Like most that never went to one.

The question is simple if people don't want religious schools they'll stop sending their children to them, and they disappear naturally. There's no need to campaign against them.

squirrelking

Member
Sorry Neal, I was addressing Seosamh with that question

Me personally, no. My brother did though, But that was the arse end of it in the 90s. Not really sure what point you are making though, the question "what school did you go to", traditionally was a tool used to discriminate against catholics.

Seems like a break down in logic and completely nonsensical to then turn that round to say it's the Catholic schools fault. Aye if there were no Catholic schools, we'd definitely not be bigoted! 😆 Complete sense!

Like most that never went to one.

How do you know they didnt? Someone educated in England is fairly likely to have done so (thanks to some 18th century parliamentary plotting once the attempts to avoid universal education failed).

and they disappear naturally.

Not that easy in many areas and, of course, even in those areas where it is more of an option some are useful for a bit of covert selection keeping out the riffraff whose parents are willing to give up a year or so of Sundays to pretend to believe.

FWIW btw, I'm completely non-religious..I just don't see the problems that people have with them.

The question is simple if people don’t want religious schools they’ll stop sending their children to them, and they disappear naturally. There’s no need to campaign against them.

I know of a few where the parents would have no choice, it would cost them to go to another school further away especially in rural areas, in urban areas if you are int eh catchment that can be it.
As the link said 20% of the state schools in the UK are CofE despite their being not enough CofE kids to fill them!!

How do you know they didnt?

Largely cause their descriptions of them don't really tally up with my experience.

Not that easy in many areas and, of course, even in those areas where it is more of an option some are useful for a bit of covert selection keeping out the riffraff whose parents are willing to give up a year or so of Sundays to pretend to believe.

I know of a few where the parents would have no choice,

But the rural areas are outliers. Not really the majority, if people didn't want to send their children to these schools en mass, you would see schools in cities emptying, in the case of faith schools.

In that sense it'll happen naturally, so I just don't see the need for a campaign against them.

For me it's up to the parents to make the decision.

if people didn’t want to send their children to these schools en mass, you would see schools in cities emptying, in the case of faith schools.

In isolation if all schools were equal that would be the case but if the faith and church schools can do their bit of selection and picking and maintain higher results or "posher" kids then they will be seen as the schools to go to. How about we make education better for all.

How am I saying its the fault of Catholics? I'm saying it's a way of reinforcing the us and them mentality. Surely teaching about religion is what Sunday school is for? Reinforcing division at such an early age cannot be healthy, maybe if we didn't have a sectarian problem I'd change my mind but that's a long way away yet.

FWIW it was one of the first questions I was asked when I joined my work and that was only 10 years ago.

mikewsmith

in isolation if all schools were equal that would be the case but if the faith and church schools can do their bit of selection and picking and maintain higher results or “posher” kids then they will be seen as the schools to go to. How about we make education better for all.

You obviously never went to my schools! 😆

The selection and picking of schools happens all over the shop with people moving to catchment areas etc.

squirrelking

Member
How am I saying its the fault of Catholics?

Well you seem to want to close down catholic schools on the basis of that question? It's mental logic, given the history of it.

Largely cause their descriptions of them don’t really tally up with my experience.

Not sure where to start with this aside from pointing out the minor flaw of expanding your experience to cover over 7k schools (that many in England alone which are state funded. I am too lazy to find the figures for the rest of the UK) and also across, lets say, 50 years?
As a casual example the school I went to got a new headmaster in the final year. The religion factor shot up dramatically.

You obviously never went to my schools!

and I guess you didn't see much south of the border either....

the numbers above have it though there is a complete over supply of school places for those who want it, it would be really healthy for kids to have a space free from it growing up, for those with religious parents somewhere to get a break from it too. For those who are not to be spared the extra hours of crap they just want to ignore.

In the example that started this the kids were been given the chance to hear views and information their parents were actively hiding from them.

dissonance

Subscriber
Largely cause their descriptions of them don’t really tally up with my experience.

Not sure where to start with this aside from pointing out the minor flaw of expanding your experience to cover over 7k schools (that many in England alone which are state funded. I am too lazy to find the figures for the rest of the UK) and also across, lets say, 50 years?
As a casual example the school I went to got a new headmaster in the final year. The religion factor shot up dramatically.

And if people disagree with it they can send their children elsewhere.(in most cases there will be a choice, I'll concede there are outliers, but I wouldn't be one for basing nationwide policy on those.)

mikewsmith

Subscriber
You obviously never went to my schools!

and I guess you didn’t see much south of the border either….

the numbers above have it though there is a complete over supply of school places for those who want it, it would be really healthy for kids to have a space free from it growing up, for those with religious parents somewhere to get a break from it too. For those who are not to be spared the extra hours of crap they just want to ignore.

In the example that started this the kids were been given the chance to hear views and information their parents were actively hiding from them.

I suspect we'll never agree tbh.

And if people disagree with it they can send their children elsewhere.(in most cases there will be a choice, I’ll concede there are outliers, but I wouldn’t be one for basing nationwide policy on those.)

If the number of school placed exceeds the number of kids significantly then that might be the case.

I suspect we’ll never agree tbh.

Very true I don't really follow your logic of supply and demand when there is a constrained demand and other factors at play,I do suspect it's quite different in many parts of Scotland with a lot more sectarian lines and 2 flavours of religion to choose from possibly catering for an over supply of places or just more separated areas.

Maybe coming back to the original point here but...

Being from Birmingham where there have been significant protests from parents of Muslim faith, I think this is a problem. I have encountered people on social media and through my employment, who are active in trying to stop the awareness programme. The angles several have taken with me are that: -
- It should be the parents choice when they make their children aware
- It’s all to do with promoting values counter to Islam to erode Islam
- It’s explicit in nature

All of the above is bullshit. I’m glad to say none who have expressed this are my friends - many who are Muslims. For those protesting, the choice of when would be never, it’s not looking to convert anyone nor is it explicit.

Well you seem to want to close down catholic schools on the basis of that question? It’s mental logic, given the history of it.

Well I'm hardly going to recommend changing the non dom schools to Catholic now am I? You seem to be ignoring my overall point though so I'm just going to leave at this point.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm treating it with contempt.

It's saying, lets close Catholic schools cause we've been discriminating against them for over a 100 years. Sectarianism is all their fault.

It's utter nonsense reasoning.

My wife has reviewed those materials, and went to a seminar about the program with the author (Andrew Moffat). It was a careful, considered approach to introducing the concept of relationships at an early age, attempting to normalise all types early. Laudable.

I liked the irony of the parents saying they didn’t want their children being indoctrinated.

That does make me chuckle!

It's sad that people think like that.
at our son's nursery there are 2 little ones who have 2 dad's (partners rather than step etc), our son thinks absolutely nothing of it and the little ones asked my wife if our son had 2 daddies and looked a little sad for him when she said 'no just the one daddy'.
personally I think it is awesome that our son has the knowledge about these things as kids just don't care, it's parents that cause the issue.

Why should you be the one to determine how people educate their children?

Because he’s paying?

Does no-one else pay tax?

No lots of other people pay tax.

The question is simple if people don’t want religious schools they’ll stop sending their children to them, and they disappear naturally. There’s no need to campaign against them.

Not when the schools have less working class kids they wont.

Religious primary schools overall were more likely to have a wealthier student population, with over one in four (27 per cent) having significantly fewer disadvantaged pupils than other nearby schools, compared with 17 per cent of non-faith primaries.

The difference was especially pronounced in Roman Catholic schools.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/faith-schools-segregated-ethnic-social-most-uk-grammar-education-charity-schooldash-challenge-icoco-a7643621.html

At the risk of swerving violently back on-topic,

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/lgbt-sex-relationship-education-mps-support