[Closed] Over-pronation (running content, abuse optional this time)

a lot of 'proper' running shops have treadmills and cameras in them now so you can get checked out.

I guess it's difficult to tell whether you have weak arches due to shoes or not if you never did the same test prior to using them.

I have this, which has caused me a lot of pain in the past.

It's worth speaking to your GP, I managed to get an appointment with a podiatrist who's found me a pair of supports and as a result my running has been transformed.

I no longer suffer constant pain in my heels and have recently clocked five miles in a smidge over 34 minutes. Good enough for me!

I am running fairly well without pain now, but I'm still not very good. I can't help thinking that my weak arches are not doing me any favours and just supporting them is not addressing the issue.

I certainly remember having high arches as a kid, but they seem to have weakened over the many years of not running.

lot of 'proper' running shops have treadmills and cameras in them now so you can get checked out

Yeah, but two shops I've been in just sold me more support, which might not be fixing the issue. If it's fixable, or even if it needs fixing.

I don't think it's the correct call for a shop to make. You really ought to consult a podiatrist first IMHO.

if you stand naturally, do your feet point at 10 to 2 or straight ahead? i.e. are you 'flat footed'?

My ex had hyper-mobile ankles that ment she also over-pronated which led to hip problems. She had arch/ankle suports through a private clinic that solved all the problems. - The point being there is only so much you can fix naturally.

As to minimalist shoes - I have a pair of Inov8's that have a very low differential between the heel and forefoot. This puts your foot strike onto the toes rather than the heel (a lot like barefoot). This stops me under-pronating as i do in my other shoes.

HC - somewhere in between.

It really looks like my arch is flattening and not springing back, causing my ankle to have to come inwards.

I don't heel strike any more when running, so some of the comments I read about rolling from the heel to forefoot don't apply.

Are you injured? No, so that's good. Are your weak arches stopping you from improving as a runner? Probably not, chances are you just need to spend less time on here and more time running.

Can you improve your foot strength? The latest whizz bang thing in running is 'barefoot' - minimalist running shoes with barely any sole structure to mimic running without shoes. Research shows barefoot running reduces injuries and leads to a more efficient running style because you can no longer take advantage of over-cushioned sole units by heel striking. Forefoot strike, less impact etc.

But it takes a while for your feet to strengthen and you have to tweak your running style to suit. You could try running barefoot on soft ground for 20 minutes at a time a couple of times per week, but gawd knows if it would make any difference.

A degree of pronation is natural btw, most people do it. If you're running okay and injury free, then what's the problem?

Mol - my right knee was totally bu66ered from this (flat foot causing strain on my knee). I used shoe inserts for a while and did physio which has helped strengthen my knee.

Some shoes are made for pronators so don't need them - Asics Kayanos for example. Off road shoes are rarely made for pronators so need inserts.

But yes, if it doesn't hurt, don't worry - sounds like you're making rapid progress running anyway.

You could try Moti on Albany Road. No pressure sell, even if you just want to check if your gait has changed they're fine about it.

Probably not, chances are you just need to spend less time on here and more time running.

Thanks mate, I've got this thing called work that ties me to the computer most days 🙂

I'm really keen on the minimal shoes now actually. I still think I want some cushioning on the toes but less all around I think. I might get some and then try it out, see how I do. Maybe alternate at first.

I did not know there was a running shop on Albany road.. will check it out cheers 🙂

A mate runs Moti... 😉

Mol - off or on road? If for offroad and they fit, Saloman SpeedCross 2s are an utterly brilliant mix of "hardcore" but with slight cushioning. And unlike In0v8, they are available almost anywhere.

I find Inov8s good but they are flipping brutal.

When you say your running has changed completely, what do you mean? IME it takes ages to be any good at running, and its not necessarly down to a foot issue - i've now been running 3 x a week for 2 years and my times/distances are totally different from when i first started - it was pretty much a slog for the first year, and took ages for my legs to adapt to longer runs. You need to work on core strength and improve the strength in your muscles/joints etc to be any good at it - and coming from a cycling background will mean you aren't used to the impact of running.

When i had shin splints last year, i asked a running shop if you could change from being say a mild pronator to over pronator. They said that I would always be a mild pronator. If this information is true, then it shouldn't mean you need different shoes.

When you got fitted for shoes, did they not check arches etc? I tried a few places, all looked at my feet, made me walk in bare feet around the shop, then in various pairs of trainers to see if it fixed the mild pronation. I also ran slowly on a treadmill with someone looking at my feet, and i've been into a shop where they video you and slow it down to see if the shoe is doing the right job.

Yes try some other some. Dont get a barefoot running ones or anything fancy just look for a lightish,cheapish pair of trainer with minimal padding.

That way if you feel the need to go back to the old shoes you wont have spent much money.

On, mainly. I will do off-road at some point but it's so hilly around here I need to be a better runner first I think. I could try those Sallies tho, they generally fit me superbly - better than almost anything else. Might prompt me to do more off-road in general.

I actually find it easier when I do do it (hills notwithstanding) since the in and out dodging bushes and rocks and things actually breaks up the effort of the pounding of the feet.

When you say your running has changed completely, what do you mean?

Well I now toe strike instead of heel strike, and I'm so much quicker that my gait has changed to reflect that too - and the toe strike thing has brought in my core much more, I can feel the muscles holding my pelvis in place properly instead of just letting it get smacked about by all the impact.

The thing is, there seems to be a school of thought that you can fix your arches and possibly over-pronation by strengthening those muscles rather than just living with it using supporting shoes.

When i had shin splints last year, i asked a running shop if you could change from being say a mild pronator to over pronator. They said that I would always be a mild pronator. If this information is true, then it shouldn't mean you need different shoes.

I suppose this is the real question molgrips is asking. Personally I dont think this is true and you can learn to run anyway if you try and build it up slowly. Even ligaments can stretch.

If we didnt have modern toilets we;d all crouch down to poo which would mean our ankles ligaments would have had been streched since childhood and we'd all probably have much more flexible ankles.

We'd also have strong glutes and muscles around our knees to allow us to crouch down and have a dump without falling over/looking like an idiot.

These muscles would come in handy for keeping the pelvis level while running and making sure your knee caps tracked better.

In short get some cheap light shoes and squat to poo.

I actually find it easier when I do do it (hills notwithstanding) since the in and out dodging bushes and rocks and things actually breaks up the effort of the pounding of the feet.

+1 road running bores me half to death

Has any one noticed that one of the main exercises in yoga/pilates/body balance type things seem to be to bend your knees and get low and move your weight around in various ways while you knees are bent.

I cant help but think without modern furniture we'd do these movements naturally our selves all the time.

Look at the wear patterns on the solo of your shoes. If they are wearing evenly keep using that type. If not adjust the amount of support to suit.

scu98rkr, didn't Paula Radcliff use that method during a race?

lol true and shes a good runner !

f-the shoes off... didnt do zola any harm...

[img] [/img]

Not a lot of dog sh1t or broken glass on a running track though...

but even if you look at the other runners shoes in that picture there's hardly any padding either.

In effect they are all running barefoot in comparison to most modern running shoes.

The difference in flexibility and shock absorption between zola buds bare feet and the other runners shoes is probably minimal.

The difference being as you say the other atheletes are unlikely to be affected if they step on a particularly sharp bit of gravel.

Run Molrest

[img] [/img]

HTH 😉

In effect they are all running barefoot in comparison to most modern running shoes.

They are all wearing track shoes - you can buy them at any decent running shop.

Inov8s have NO padding at all. Similar with a few other full on race/fell shoes.

but even if you look at the other runners shoes in that picture there's hardly any padding either.

If you've ever run on a tartan - modern synthetic - track, you'll know that the surface is quite springy, not remotely like running on hard surfaces, so racing spikes don't really need cushioning. Have a look at marathon runners for a more relevant comparison, though even then, you need to bear in mind that elite athletes tend to be both very light and have a highly efficient running style.

The way I see it is that there's a broad spread of cushioning and structure from the super-minimalist barefoot stuff at one end of the spectrum - think Vibram FiveFingers and the like - through to seriously cushioned and stability-orientated stuff at the other - any number of running shoe manufacturers. Things like Inov-8s are closer to the minimalist end of things, most trail-running shoes too, road shoes tend towards the more structured end of things generally.

Seems reasonable to me that someone who's light with an efficient running action is going to be more likely to get away with a lighter, less structured shoe than a heavier, less efficient runner. You do get used to what you run in though, I've found myself wearing lighter, trail-type shoes more and more and if I do go back to a more cushioned road shoe, they feel squishy and unwieldy.

I think it's fair to say that it's all quite confusing, the barefoot thing is a polar opposite to the established approach of built-up stability shoes with load of anti-pronation features. I'm not sure if there is a 'right answer', maybe just what works for the individual runner?

tarmac is very hard and a running tracks not.

training on the roads, without cushoning in shoes, will only lead to joint problems, will it not?

EDIT: looks like BWD has answered before i asked!

land on your heels and you need cushioning.

modern shoes give you about half inch of squidge*.

land on your forefoot and your toes+ankle give you about 3 inches of squidge.

simple shoes force you to run forefoot, so you need less cushioning in your shoes, cos you've got loads more in your feet and ankles than the most cushiony soft shoes could ever give you.

some people, lots of people, get on fine hammering their heels into the ground, protected only by an inch of squidgy rubber. i'm not one of these people.

if you are one of these people, then consider yourself lucky, everyone else suffers from plantar fasciitis.

there's a lot to be said for running in a way that's sympathetic to way we have evolved.

(*from about an inch of foam rubber, if you want more cushioning, you need more rubber, this would make the heel very tall, and you'd be forever twisting your ankle)

Hmmm. The best running tracks are hard though.

They are all wearing track shoes - you can buy them at any decent running shop.

Inov8s have NO padding at all. Similar with a few other full on race/fell shoes.

If you've ever run on a tartan - modern synthetic - track, you'll know that the surface is quite springy, not remotely like running on hard surfaces, so racing spikes don't really need cushioning. Have a look at marathon runners for a more relevant comparison, though even then, you need to bear in mind that elite athletes tend to be both very light and have a highly efficient running style.

The way I see it is that there's a broad spread of cushioning and structure from the super-minimalist barefoot stuff at one end of the spectrum - think Vibram FiveFingers and the like - through to seriously cushioned and stability-orientated stuff at the other - any number of running shoe manufacturers. Things like Inov-8s are closer to the minimalist end of things, most trail-running shoes too, road shoes tend towards the more structured end of things generally.

Seems reasonable to me that someone who's light with an efficient running action is going to be more likely to get away with a lighter, less structured shoe than a heavier, less efficient runner. You do get used to what you run in though, I've found myself wearing lighter, trail-type shoes more and more and if I do go back to a more cushioned road shoe, they feel squishy and unwieldy.

I think it's fair to say that it's all quite confusing, the barefoot thing is a polar opposite to the established approach of built-up stability shoes with load of anti-pronation features. I'm not sure if there is a 'right answer', maybe just what works for the individual runner

I agree, but I do disagree with just say by more and more bulky expensive shoes to "solve" your running problems.

the problem with those gait analyses is that even with walking the foot deforms and they use that slow motion video to show you are in need of some very expensive supporting running shoes i.e. it's a gimmick to make you think you are abnormal and they have the solution to all your problems.

I have hypermobile feet, my weighted foot size is approximately 3 sizes bigger than my neutral size i.e. my arches are none existant and I have problems running long distances an I accept that I was not built for running as all insoles I have tried caused me more grief than it was mooted to solve!

accept the fact that you are a cyclist, not a runner, and live with it! running is for jessies wearing lycra and over priced trainers.

The best running tracks are hard though

what are they best for?

BWD has it when he said the key is running without pain. Whether that's with supportive shoes or with minimalist shoes is really besides the point. You could spend ages changing your gait or running style so that you could wear a differ t style of shoe, but if you don't get faster or you get injured it's sort of pointless

If you would like to try to strengthen your feet why not buy normal everyday barefoot shoes, like vivo barefoot. Some of those could be suitable for office and work use. That way you get your feet to work, and see if you like the new position and gait you walk and stand in. Your feet could become stronger without putting them under extra strain running will bring. If you like them slowly work towards barefoot running shoes. If not stick to what you use already.

On a personal level I tend to try to strengthen weak areas rather than support them. Also just for the record I run mainly off road (but rocky) and wear barefoot and trail shoes.

what are they best for?

Getting fast times. Not losing as much energy.

I wear vibram five fingers or go barefoot quite a lot for just knocking around, but still wear a decent cushioned shoe when running, I think it has strengthened my feet going barefoot, I don't feel like I overpronate as much now.

I've been making myself run toe-first, since it seems to work way way better for me. When I was heel striking, even with padding I could hear the shockwave of each step thudding in my ears. Consequently, when I bought shoes, I favoured the ones with lots of padding.

Now I am toe striking a bit, the heel of my shoe may actually be getting in the way, esp on the downhills. So I think I am gonna try something with little padding on the heel - perhaps more on the forefoot, not sure. Maybe also something wider at the front since I can feel my toes spreading out and gripping the 'floor' much more.

[i]Inov8s have NO padding at all. Similar with a few other full on race/fell shoes.[/i]

There's about a million different Inov-8 models - they have an arrow mark to indicate the amount of padding.

FWIW I run almost exclusively offroad these days and seem to have developed a more neutral gait (from being a pronator). I did 8 on the road last night, the furthest I've done on road in a long while, and my latest cheaper lighter-built trainers were fine. Go easy though, don't *try* too hard to change things. Its dead easy to injure yourself running.

There's about a million different Inov-8 models - they have an arrow mark to indicate the amount of padding.

True dat.

My Roclite 295s are rated 3 arrows and my F-Lites 230s are 2.

Getting fast times. Not losing as much energy.

True for short distances but not for long. 5000 and 10000 times dont really improve if the track is hard.

Yeah.. that's true. I tend to stop when I feel a pain tho, and then try and limp home or just walk. Saves injuries 🙂

Molgrips you may want to try a neutral shoe if you are concerned that your "control" shoes may be causing problems.
Everyone pronates to some extent it is a natural movement. In my opinion it is too strong a movement to really control and my experience tends towards a flexible, cushioned and comfortable shoe and then build up training gradually.
That way you body has time to adapt to your natural tendency to pronate. I have a good friend who ran inside 25 mins for 5 miles regularly and who only had problems when he tried to control the pronation. When left alone (and it was severe) he had very little issue and a long running career!

I tend to stop when I feel a pain tho, and then try and limp home or just walk. Saves injuries

Pffft! MTFU and run through the pain. It's what your doctor would tell you.

It's what your doctor would tell you

If its rip roaring muscle exhaustion pain along with burning lungs etc thent that good pain!!!
Tears, joint, chest pain etc not so good!

A doctor would tell you to stop at either!

I usually get some tendon or other suddenly or gradually starting to shout at me very loudly. That's when the workout's over...

A doctor would tell you to stop at either!

I should have added the caveat that I am not a doctor 😉

'grips I forefoot run, but wear fairly supportive shoes as well, try a few different brands as there's a wide difference between say a Asics control, and the same style made by Brooks or Nike.

I've never tried to change my gait or control my (admittedly slight) over-pronation, and I've never had a running injury.

My pronation looks really bad tho as far as I can tell; my leg looks like it's going to slide off my ankle, only held in place by straining tendons... Of course that is exactly how it IS held in place, but if it were a machine I'd think 'oh that's gonna break that is'.

The best way to gauge what is going in down there is to look at the bottom of your trainers, obviously ones you have put at least a bit of mileage on, and see where they have worn. This will tell you 100% how you are running and where your feet are rolling too...whether inwards or outwards. As just looking down at your feet now and again might not give you an accurate assessment as to what is going on.

These are my shoes:

http://www.brooksrunning.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-BrooksRunning-Site/default/Product-Select?pid=110063&dwvar_110063_color=063

[i]My pronation looks really bad tho as far as I can tell[/i]

but may not be that bad in reality. Just changing it because you 'think' it's bad maybe a short cut to just different problems. If you're OK now, just get the miles in.

Wow, expensive shoes...I never pay more than £50 (cheapskate) 😆

Wow, expensive shoes...I never pay more than £50 (cheapskate)

It's Molgrips. What do you expect? 8)

I am the same though. Always getting last years models saves a bundle.

There's about a million different Inov-8 models - they have an arrow mark to indicate the amount of padding.

I didn't know that. My Mudclaws appear to have zero padding. A bit in the insoles and that's it. Take them out and there's none.

My Speedcross 2s have a wee bit of heel padding - use them for most off road runs these days as they are great all rounders and light too.

Wear all sorts for different running with no issues:

Road:
[img] [/img]

General off road:
[img] [/img]

"Extreme" off road:
[img] [/img]

And probably not going to wear these much any more as they are crap in mud - for combined road/off road (Goretex lined):
[img] [/img]

Look on the back of the shoe Mat, there will arrows on the sole:
[img] [/img]

Cheers Jamie - will do!

I sent my Roclites back - poor fit and killed my calves. Odd because my Mudclaws are fine.

My Roclites are awesome. Use them for walking/hiking and running. Had a 10k in Sheffield the other sunday and forgot my insoles and they were still fine with some chunky wool socks.

Just changing it because you 'think' it's bad maybe a short cut to just different problems. If you're OK now, just get the miles in.

That's not why I'm changing. I'm changing because my gait has definitely changed and I feel the heel is in the way.. and for an experiment too 🙂

And yes I spent a lot on shoes but at the time I needed all the help I could get - I went through all the shoes in the shop and didn't ask the price. After all US$100 (£70 ish) is not much compared to an MTB 🙂

My Roclites are awesome.

And I assumed mine would be spot on too so was slightly puzzled as to why they were so uncomfy and such a bad fit.

Tried bigger sizes but still the same. The Speedcross 2s fit a treat and are that all important 5 grams lighter 😉

Done three off road 10k races in my Mudclaws and got good results so definitely rate Inov8s overall.

Tend to use Hilly Monoskin socks - really good and fairly cheap.

there are about 10 different styles of roclite, from distance trail to short fast race shoe. could explain why you didn't get on with them when you do with the mudclaw.

innov8 terroc 330's here.

brilliant for me. sheffy half marathon in 1hr40, fell races up the ying-yang, and general pub-approach shoe.

[img] [/img]

no arrows, what does that mean?

The Rocklite 290's have a strange heel box, I have had a some bad blistes in events I have done and it appears to be a fault with the early one.

[i]When I bought running shoes a year or two back I was told that I over-pronated a fair bit,

I could see my foot and ankle squishing inwards loads, looked quite alarming actually.

Has anyone actually had problems running with over-pronation like this? [/i]

So when you started running you over-pronated, but now you...over-pronate...I must have missed the bit where you suggested your running style has changed....

there are about 10 different styles of roclite, from distance trail to short fast race shoe. could explain why you didn't get on with them when you do with the mudclaw.

These were 295s. Uncomfy around the toe box area and caused killer calf ache. My Mudclaws did too but it soon wore off as I got used to them. I did about 10 runs in the Roclites and it didn't get any better. It's not a crime to not get on with certain shoes you know 😉

The Salomons fitted better and are incredibly comfy - I also prefer their speed lacing system. Inov8 laces are too short IMO.

These are what you need, no structure but bags of cushioning...

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.hokaoneone.com/ ]http://www.hokaoneone.com/[/url]

And yes, they are serious.

I must have missed the bit where you suggested your running style has changed....

Yeah, you did. I've said it loads of times on every running thread 🙂 I used to heel strike, now I toe strike. Doesn't seem to have affected the pronation tho, I thought it might've in my ignorance.

Btw - Inov8 shoes off-road only?

how do your feet land? - one directly in front of the other, like you're running along a line in the road? or out to the side like you're running along a moving ship?

it's easier to run on the outside of your foot if your feet land in-line.

if your feet land out to the side, then you'll run on the inside of your feet (pronate).

i get all sorts of aches and pains if i allow my self to run feet-apart.

I will be mostly using these this winter, because they are red and therefore will make me faster.
[img] [/img]

how do your feet land? - one directly in front of the other

Umm, interesting question - not directly, no, but I've recently noticed that, when looking at my shadow, I seem to swing from one side to the other as if my foot is swinging out to the side on recovery, and the other leg is coming towards the centre. Seen other people run like this, especially gangly teenage kids, and thought it looked awkward. I may be doing it myself.

Inov8 laces are too short IMO.

especially when you use the their loop lock method which also makes them an arse to get off when your fingers are numb.

'Grips, honestly how do you not drive yourself nuts by over-complicating everything in your life?

Heel striking, forefoot striking, pronating, supernating, none of these things are inherently "bad" or necessarily "need" to be changed. As long as you are running without pain you're pretty much good to go. Just run, it doesn't matter that "when I look at my shadow..." and all that nonsense, just run. Just slip your trainers on and go for a run, it's not the effing Olympics, so stop worrying about all this stuff, it's meaningless.

ianmunro; The. Coolest. Trainers. Ever.

Seen other people run like this, especially gangly teenage kids, and thought it looked awkward. I may be doing it myself.

That may be the logical conclusion but after seeing a scruffy gangly looking guy (who looked like he couldnt run for toffee) run away from everybody in a 5m race in Sefton park many years ago.
Then seeing him go on to win the London Marathon a couple of years later I quickly changed that perception!

Grips, honestly how do you not drive yourself nuts by over-complicating everything in your life?

Ok so here's the thing. I've got an enquiring mind, yet I'm forced to sit here and think about tedious crap all day every day, to make a living. So my mind wanders on various subjects in which I am interested.. that's why I spam the forum with it 🙂

I DO just go out for runs.. but I also like to understand what I'm doing as much as I can. So I run, then I come back and my mind think about the subject.. and then I ask on here if anyone else has any more light to shed on the subject 🙂

Surfer - yeah.. people often LOOK gangly and inefficient, but they are often also really fast, I'm aware of that 🙂

Right, I'm off for a run...

Btw - Inov8 shoes off-road only?

Depends on you really. They're primarily aimed at trail runners and fell people and don't have much cushioning, but if you don't need much cushioning, then yes, they're perfectly okay on harder surfaces. Mind the heel cup, some versions are quite aggressive, and prepare to be very confused by the millions of variations on offer, all seemingly doing much the same thing... the number in the name is the weight btw.

[i]I will be mostly using these this winter, [/i]
I like the look the look of them, prolly too narrow for me though.

[i]because they are red and therefore will make me faster.[/i]
I confused our networking guy yesterday when I needed a longer cable. He tried to give me a blue one for goodness sake.