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Ninfan I don't understand your concern with EU citizens being able to live and work in Scotland,over the right of Scottish people being to live and work in other eu countries .Surely a non EU Scotland could legislate to allow citizens of other nations to live and work in Scotland, it is the other way around you will have no control over.
I agree completely
Its Nicola Sturgeon that says otherwise
Scotland will not kick out EU citizens. It's utterly ridiculous to think we would.chip - MemberSurely a non EU Scotland could legislate to allow citizens of other nations to live and work in Scotland, it is the other way around you will have no control over.
Like Currency Union
Well done you did some posts on the same point before massively changing direction ...well done keep taking those baby steps
That's politics, you adopt a negotiating position and work from there.
Of course you run the risk the other person says 'nah, f*ck it, we don't need you that much, bye!'
We want greater independence than we have now so we want to join the EU.....it's hard to make this stuff up. Do the words, "ceding national sovereignty" (Mark Carney) need simplifying into noddy and big ears lingo for the DO to get it?
The DO is clearly uncomfortable with being independent hence his desire to remain integrated within the UK and eUrope. Talk about a complete deceit. Pretty much every main proposal involves ceding not gaining sovereignty. And the vote is for what exactly?
It's odd that a (minority admittedly) are prepared to place their faith in people who are so staggeringly ill-prepared for the potential upheaval ahead of them. Forget leap of faith, leap of folly more like.
seosamh77 - Member
Scotland will not kick out EU citizens. It's utterly ridiculous to think we would.
In a series of ridiculous things from the (thankfully quiet) dear Nicola
Agreed, but when the Dep First Minister suggests it, the ridiculous becomes a possibility.Scotland will not kick out EU citizens. It's utterly ridiculous to think we would.
yip, large % of us understand that and are more than willing to accept it.ninfan - Member
That's politics, you adopt a negotiating position and work from there.
Of course you run the risk the other person says 'nah, f*ck it, we don't need you that much, bye!'
It's amazing how far away this discussion is with what's happening in Scotland.
We understand there are risks and benefits.
yip, large % of us understand that and are more than willing to accept it.
Looking at the polls, not a large enough percentage to try it 😆
PS. - Secretly, I'm hoping that you win, just to see Salmond's face when he's having to explain to the Scottish people how its all gone wrong, the EU aren't letting you back in and Westminister won't give you a currency union - Doomed, we're all Doomed 😆
ninfan - Member
yip, large % of us understand that and are more than willing to accept it.
Looking at the polls, not a large enough percentage to try it
You see that large undecided section of the polls. They are largely leaning towards Yes.
The vote come next month, is not Yes/No/Undecided. It's Yes/No.
Have you received your polling card yet? 😆
You see that large undecided section of the polls. They are largely leaning towards Yes.
😆
The have you got your polling card jibe is rather silly when you step back and think about it. In the hypothetical situation where enough people are mistaken enough to vote yes the real fun begins.
The rUK will then enter negotiations holding all the trump cards against a counterparty that has rejected a proposal that is in the best interests of everyone and that will cause unnecessary uncertainty and aggravation. The rUK representatives will be held to account by the voters in a general election. So at the end of the day, the votes that really matter will now be taking place south of the border.....a bit like the subsequent policy decisions. You couldn't make it up.
😆
teamhurtmore - Member
The have you got your polling card jibe is rather silly when you step back and think about it. In the hypothetical situation where enough people are mistaken enough to vote yes the real fun begins.The rUK will then enter negotiations holding all the trump cards against a counterparty that has rejected a proposal that is in the best interests of everyone and that will cause unnecessary uncertainty and aggravation. The rUK representatives will be held to account by the voters in a general election. So at the end of the day, the votes that really matter will now be taking place south of the border.....a bit like the subsequent policy decisions. You couldn't make it up.
After the tories get blamed for the break up of the UK, it'll be a dawdle negotiating with a gormless **** like ed milliband.
Your confidence seems a little misplaced! 😆
Well you are not doing a very good job with darling (remember the predicted bloodbath?) or Alexander, so yet again, I would turn your observation on its head. Your confidence seems a little misplaced.
Blimey offer milk and honey ad infinitum and you still can't get enough voters. Perhaps they are just canny enough to see through the BS?
teamhurtmore - Member
Well you are not doing a very good job with darling (remember the predicted bloodbath?) or Alexander, so yet again, I would turn your observation on its head. Your confidence seems a little misplaced.Blimey offer milk and honey ad infinitum and you still can't get enough voters. Perhaps they are just canny enough to see through the BS?
Loving your confidence! keep it up!
Go steady on Ed miliband, he's a proper Yorkshire MP you knows.
teamhurtmore - Member
...The rUK will then enter negotiations holding all the trump cards against a counterparty that has rejected a proposal that is in the best interests of everyone and that will cause unnecessary uncertainty and aggravation. The rUK representatives will be held to account by the voters in a general election...
Well if it comes down to not negotiating, I suppose we keep what's in our borders and you keep what's in yours.
I'm sure Scotland could get a good price for our nuclear submarines from that nice Mr Putin or perhaps one of the middle east countries. That would cover our setup costs... 🙂
It's easy having confidence when you are coming from the "correct" side of the debate !!!! You don't have to rely on making things up or flip-flopping with the wind.
Try it....the BT are the nice guys after all. Look who is becoming negative as the vote gets closer...yS....worried at all?
Epic, that is the kind of stuff that the DO tries to say re debt etc. When you go out into the big bad world on your own, there is no one to hold your hand. Believe it or not you would have to stop behaving like children (debt, taking nukes FFS) and finally start talking and acting responsibly, well your representatives at least.
An iS has a lot of debt to raise to fund all the (false) promises remember. Investors don't like lending to kids who make silly threats with their obligations.
more condescending rhetoric, that's what the better together camp needs!teamhurtmore - Member
Epic, that is the kind of stuff that the DO tries to say re debt etc. When you go out into the big bad world on your own, there is no one to hold your hand. Believe it or not you would have to stop behaving like children (debt, taking nukes FFS) and finally start talking and acting responsibly, well your representatives at least.An iS has a lot of debt to raise to fund all the (false) promises remember. Investors don't like lending to kids who make silly threats with their obligations.
Carry on! 😆
teamhurtmore - Member
Epic, that is the kind of stuff that the DO tries to say re debt etc. When you go out into the big bad world on your own, there is no one to hold your hand. Believe it or not you would be able to behave like children (debt, taking nukes FFS) and finally start talking and acting responsibly. An iS has a lot of debt to raise to fund all the (false) promises remember.
Exactly. Take a unfair line in the post independence negotiations and then the Scottish govt is under pressure to raise money.
Where to raise it from, debt or disposal of unwanted assets?
What would you do?
A nuclear sub is a high value item so there's a lot of money sitting right there. Of course, a brandnew aircraft carrier could be worth a few bob too. These are things we don't want in Scotland so what's the best way to get rid of them when you need a few bob.
Or are we supposed to hand those over to you even though you won't share the UK govt assets?
(I suppose if we kept them we could puff out our chests and claim an ability to "punch above our weight" like some pathetic blusterer with delusions of empire and global significance)
Well the complicated stuff doesn't work (see "cede national sovereignty" above)....
....even the DO fails to understand such simple language, so just bringing it down to his level. Your rep talks and behaves like a kid, and this is the guy that could lead an newly independent state. Blimey, he gets chewed up by darling imagine what would happen in the wider world?
jesus ****ing wept
I genuinely don't particularly want anything to do with either side reading this bilge.
Im oot.
Blimey, epic you are sounding more like Ms Kirchner by the day.....? Has a noble nation really stooped this low?
Are you still including currency as an asset BTW? Only asking as it helps to set the context and level.
teamhurtmore - Member
Blimey, epic you are sounding more like Ms Kirchner by the day.....? Has a noble nation really stooped this low?Are you still including currency as an asset BTW? Only asking as it helps to set the context and level.
Nah, I'm just pointing out that Scotland taking an extreme position is just as pathetic as what we are being threatened with. Reducing the argument to its absurdity, ie countering the BT absurd posturing with an equally unbelievable scenario from our side.
BTW what do you expect to happen if the rUK govt is intransigent and tries to put us up against the wall? That we'll break down and cry, or come up with a response?
I don't care what currency we use initially because we'll either end up on the Euro or have our own pound in the end.
Euro or Ding Dong, remember 🙂
Think I leaned about 150 pages ago, that the only thing this thread is worthwhile for is having a laugh, yer men ninfan and teamhurtmore will seriously engage with any amount nonsense! 😆piemonster - Member
jesus **** weptI genuinely don't particularly want anything to do with either side reading this bilge.
Im oot.
A nuclear sub is a high value item so there's a lot of money sitting right there. Of course, a brandnew aircraft carrier could be worth a few bob too. These are things we don't want in Scotland so what's the best way to get rid of them when you need a few bob.Or are we supposed to hand those over to you even though you won't share the UK govt assets?
This has just got even sillier. That's not "extreme" it's just nonsense.
I would also challenge you on the "things we don't want in Scotland", the nuclear subs may split opinion but SCotland was desperate to get to a lot of the building work for the 2 carriers. The people working on them were more than happy to have them in Scotland.
gobuchul - Member
This has just got even sillier. That's not "extreme" it's just nonsense.I would also challenge you on the "things we don't want in Scotland", the nuclear subs may split opinion but SCotland was desperate to get to a lot of the building work for the 2 carriers. The people working on them were more than happy to have them in Scotland.
Exactly the point I was making, just the counterbalancing side of it. 🙂
Of course we were happy to build you aircraft carriers, and still will be. We just don't need them, so if we end up with them, they'll be on the market.
For Sale: Two state of the art aircraft carriers. Aircraft not included 😀
Things I have learned today:
- "Giraffe Bread" is a thing.
- Better Together think we'll care what the inventor of such bread thinks about Scottish independence.
jesus **** weptI genuinely don't particularly want anything to do with either side reading this bilge.
Im oot.
Please dont there are precious few voices of sense on this "debate" as each side seems to outdo the other in terms of hyperbole and hypocrisy.
Dont let the gibberish grind you down, hard though it is. Its clearly tabloid trash talk day today
You don't have to rely on making things up or flip-flopping with the wind.
Why do you do it then? If only your confidence was actually matched by reality - remember the false democracy claims you made re england and election results? where they were both the same [ demonstrably untrue ] and worse - again clearly untrue]. Even you realised as you failed to even try and defend it as accurate , it was nowt but fluff and spin.
I could be here all day listing the BS claims you made that were false
My personal favourite was you asking ducks to not play the man like the DO - as that label is not playing the man.
Your rep talks and behaves like a kid
You are still an example to us all in the temperate and moderate use of language and grown up debate - no cheeky disparaging acronyms from you eh 🙄
Saw something today from SNP saying that the UK would have to hold a second general election after Scottish indepence as May 2015 election will include Scotland as independence won't be completed yet (target March 2016). Interesting I thought although the UK would almost certainly seek to avoid that.
Any, saw another table and aside from National Pride and "role in the world" the respondants thought Scotland would be worse off in most things, economy, personal finances, tax and banking/deposit protection
Saw something today from SNP saying that the UK would have to hold a second general election after Scottish indepence as May 2015 election will include Scotland as independence won't be completed yet (target March 2016). Interesting I thought although the UK would almost certainly seek to avoid that.
The Westminster government really hasn't thought through this problem. After a Yes vote, there will be a general election half way through the negotiating period. There might well be a Labour government, elected with the help of Scottish Labour MPs - who will then be on the rUK side of negotiations. Then what happens at independence in March 2016? There may well have to be another general election for the rUK.
There will be some SNP MPs as well, of course, who are working as hard as they can to get themselves out of a job.
you'd think it would since the 2015 result would be skewed by a few million votes.jambalaya - Member
Saw something today from SNP saying that the UK would have to hold a second general election after Scottish indepence as May 2015 election will include Scotland as independence won't be completed yet (target March 2016). Interesting I thought although the UK would almost certainly seek to avoid that.
Saying that suppose they could just do a re-count in parliament, minus scottish MPs? But I'd think that unlikely.
@ben - I think the Westminster parties will have given plenty of thought to this. The referendum result will be known long before an election so there is time for new legislation to negate the need for a second election. For example they could pass legislation to say post iS completion those MPs just lose their vote/seat. I don't see it being anyone's interest having a second election, if the Tories win they won't want the risk of a second election and if the Labour party wins they won;t want a second election without the seats north of the border. As the iS process could fail I don't think Scottish MPs could be excluded in a May 2015 general election.
Saw something today
Thanks for the link 😕
indeed worse case scenario is a lab govt that only exist due to scottish MPs and at the moment of independence it looses its majority. That is no mandate to act for rUK - though I am sure THM and others will be along shortly to tell me how fair, representative and democratic this is 😉
bencooper - MemberFor Sale: Two state of the art aircraft carriers.[b]May require some home assembly[/b] Aircraft not included
FTFY Ben
seosamh77 - Member
Think I leaned about 150 pages ago, that the only thing this thread is worthwhile for is having a laugh...
Exactly. Other forums for the informed stuff where at least people get what a currency is, how monetary and fiscal policy work and what don't ask don't tell, actually mean 😉
yer men ninfan and teamhurtmore will seriously engage with any amount nonsense!
Exactly again. We do have to put up with a lot is yS nonsense. Nothing else sadly. But as you say, good for a lengthy laugh.
jesus **** wept
I genuinely don't particularly want anything to do with either side reading this bilge.Im oot.
you should see the yes rubbish that is going around facebook up here! Not doing favours to swing the undecided voters like me.
If ninfan is your ally THM then you really are in the shit. His last profile,pre ban, explained that he rarely agreed with the stuff he spouted. the account then got banned for trolling and he created this new one...OH the irony 😆
I agree about the humour though that was priceless. 😀
As for other forums do they cry troll when the facts are counter to reality/their view or do they just ignore criticism and pretend it is not happening?
So the democracy issue "confident" enough to engage armed with the facts then....though not.
Any issue that gets people emotional will end up with a fair amount of gibberish and nonsense being spouted. You can decide to ignore and rise above it , join in , or criticise the other side ONLY whilst making up your own little acronyms for those you dislike. I forget which is the most credible approach but both sides have their nutters.
bigjim - Member
...you should see the yes rubbish that is going around facebook up here! Not doing favours to swing the undecided voters like me.
Visit a foodbank, then make your decision either way.
If that's the priority, then I'd have thought the economic prospects for the country were paramount in decision making as to redistribute wealth you must first have it.Visit a foodbank, then make your decision either way
The economic case is muddled and ill thought through. Unlikely to deliver the outcome you seek, which is why I've been No since the white paper was published.
You can have less money and still have less absolute poverty. It depends on how you distribute it not just how much you have.
Its not JUST about maximum money as we are not all the children of thatcher or think that the GDP of UK PLC [ I mean who uses such terms] is the main goal in life. It simportant but other things matter as well and everyone knows there is more to life than money [ except for some who are unfortunately very very poor]
IMHO very few will vote just due to economic matters. the uncertainty makes it the strong card for project fear hence they just repeat it ad infinitum and [generally]dont engage on the other points,
If that's the priority, then I'd have thought the economic prospects for the country were paramount in decision making as to redistribute wealth you must first have it.
Well that, and having a Government that actually wants to fix the problem and doesn't see punishing the poor as an easy way to win vote and an idealogical win.
Indeed. And the less you have to achieve that end the more you need to hit the rich. They're not likely to take that without migrating or rearranging their affairs, so you have to put more of the burden on the comfortably off. Who, of course, are going to vote for that year after year.You can have less money and still have less absolute poverty. It depends on how you distribute it not just how much you have.