[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

[quote=chip ]could not have any theoretical talks have taken place with the eu before hand or would Europe not even entertain the idea before the yes vote goes through.The EU made it clear that they will only deal with the governments of current member states - in this case that would be the Tory Govt led by David Cameron. He has refused to do so. One might ask why, especially if he is so sure that the outcome would be in favour of a No vote.

or would Europe not even entertain the idea before the yes vote goes through

Pretty much that. Same with the UK gov't

And if they do it will be a huge vote of confidence in their politicians as here the general consensus is you cannot trust them as far as you can throw them.

You see the elections that led to the referendum being a possibility - they were an unbelievably big vote of confidence in the SNP. The election system was set up specifically to avoid a one party majority. But the SNP managed it so they must have been doing something right.

they were an unbelievably big vote of confidence in the SNP

What if referendum vote goes Yes and then Labour get into Holyrood

I half expect that to happen. Do you think that Labour would be daft enough to try and have a referendum to get back into a union?

Do you think that Labour would be daft enough to try and have a referendum to get back into a union?

pointless, their would need to be a rUK referendum for the "re"union and there are two hope's of that ever happening

Exactly.

They don't have to. They can cover a position in their manifesto.

The referendum vote is being based on a white paper which proposes a desired shape of iScotland. It would be perfectly reasonable for Labour to be elected on a platform that they'll proceed only if the negotiations get exactly what the electorate has given them a mandate to sign up to and they'll put the proposal to Holyrood if it falls short. It falls short, Holyrood votes against.

Define "perfectly reasonable".

But the Scottish Labour Party is currently part of the British Labour Party, so if the yes vote goes through would the become a seperate entity .

For instance if the Labour Party were in goverment in the uk and the Scottish Labour Party were in power in Scotland could the uk Labour Party exert influence over Scotland through the back door through there alliance .

If it is in the manifesto, surely that's just democracy in action?

They don't have to. They can cover a position in their manifesto

then we'll have the wait for a SNP led administration that takes the aging mandate and goes for any deal they can get 😉

I presume they'd have been elected on a platform proposing that, so why not?

How much wriggle room would an indepedent Scotland have? It could either be a race to the bottom lowering taxes or a battle to keep people and companies in if raising taxes. The UK and increasingly EU economies are so tighly coupled that I imagine it is not very easy for national politicians to do much except fiddle around at the edges. Independence seems like a very expensive way of fiddling around at the edges. My sister lives in Ireland a is very p@@sed at how corrupt the politicians are there and how while they have to pay for anything extra at school companies like apple pay next to no tax. It will be interesting in the real world how Scotland would sell itself and what the plan will be. Low tax like Ireland but with rubbish public services or high tax like France but a tanking economy.

chip - Member
...It seems to me asking the Scottish people to vote yes is asking for a huge leap of faith. And if they do it will be a huge vote of confidence in their politicians as here the general consensus is you cannot trust them as far as you can throw them.

Of course it's a leap of faith.

The difference is all our politicians will be elected, and not include a load of appointed for life parasites.

Voting No is a leap of faith. Hoping that the "more powers" promised actually happen. Hoping that the Barnett formula isn't cut. Hoping that the NHS survives. Hoping that the UK stays in the EU.

No point hoping that Trident is scrapped or austerity lessened - all parties have signed up to carry on with those, they'll definitely continue after a No vote.

Low tax like Ireland but with rubbish public services or high tax like France but a tanking economy.

Its not a land of Tunnock's Teacake clouds and Irn Bru streams

Just a less divided, fairer country where we look after each other a bit better.
The rest of Europe seems to manage it quite well
[url= https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre ]https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre[/url]

it's only a leap of faith if you think the Scottish Parliament needs more powers. the closer the proposed change is to the status quo, the smaller the leap. more like a hop of faith.

The status quo is that I am an EU citizen and also able to travel to the rest of the UK and Ireland under the CTA.

a very interesting point, Mr Cooper. iScotland is not a party to the CTA agreements. upon independence, does it try to become a party to those agreements? will Ireland (a pro-Schengen country with no border with Scotland) and the UK agree to that? what happens to the Scottish promise to the EU to accede to Schengen, which is incompatible with the CTA? is Scotland going to mark its modern debut into international diplomacy by violating at least one of the first international treaties it's going to sign?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

There's no such thing as EU citizenship, properly understood. there's only citizenship of a state that is a member of the EU. if the UK leaves the EU tomorrow, UK citizens don't continue to be citizens of the EU. individuals don't have a personal relationship with the EU (or other entities in international law), it's always mediated by the state.

bencooper - Member
"Voting No is a leap of faith. "

Not at all. We know how the systems works (well), you get all the good bits from the DOs wish list (except the big throne and mirror) except you actually get representation in the body that makes policy. Instead of a foreign county doing it for you.

"Hoping that the "more powers" promised actually happen."

All parties have committed to more devolved power. Talk about spoilt kid syndrome, Scotland already gets more than most other parts of the UK and will get even more. There is only one logical box to tick.

I shall be voting yes for a Free Yorkshire. I don't believe that we should be supporting any more of these hangers on and parasitic counties think they can rule our great country.

Just my weekly up date from this oppressed land.

There's no such thing as EU citizenship

Whilst I agree with that, the people of an independent Scotland have no problems being 'thrown out' of the EU in the event of a yes vote thanks to the clear statement from the UK government that they will allow dual nationality therefore guaranteeing that anyone holding a British passport will able to take advantage of the UKs treaties.

Of course this needs agreement from the iScotland government that they will also allow dual nationality.

Of course this needs agreement from the iScotland government that they will also allow dual nationality.

The Scottish government have already said they'll allow dual nationality:

http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/who-will-be-eligible-scottish-citizenship-independence-and-future

Theresa May said the Westminster government might not allow dual nationality:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24928350

I'll be a triple national 😉

All parties have committed to more devolved power. Talk about spoilt kid syndrome, Scotland already gets more than most other parts of the UK and will get even more. There is only one logical box to tick.

All parties have [b]said[/b] they're committed to more devolved power - but they have not produced any real detail, there's no legislation pending (apart from the Scotland Act 2012 which is already in the works), and several senior people have stated they think there's no need for further powers.

And, really, the "powers" suggested aren't a help. It's suggested to give further tax-raising powers, letting the Scottish government raise more of the money it spends. But the corresponding block grant will be cut. So Scotland will have to set up a whole new tax department and bureaucracy, at great expense, and won't get any more money because of it.

The only logical choice is to vote to be able to decide these things for ourselves, not rely on Westminster promises - we know what they're worth.

mt - Member
I shall be voting yes for a Free Yorkshire. I don't believe that we should be supporting any more of these hangers on and parasitic counties think they can rule our great country.

As indeed you should. It's about time York regained its former glories.

It's been a while since it spent 3 years as the centre of the Roman Empire, but there's no reason you lot can't do it again. Those pesky southern tribes will soon be conquered, and then you can cross the channel and invade Brussels to complete the job. 🙂

29 days to go.

And, really, the "powers" suggested aren't a help. It's suggested to give further tax-raising powers, letting the Scottish government raise more of the money it spends. But the corresponding block grant will be cut. So Scotland will have to set up a whole new tax department and bureaucracy, at great expense, and won't get any more money because of it.

I'm not sure thats a correct interpretation of the changes. The planned change is for the UK to collect 10p less income tax from Scotland and to change the block grant to reflect this (so yes the block grant will be smaller). Scotland then has the power to set it's rate at whatever it choses, if it choses 10p then the revenue into Scotland will be the same, but it has the option to increase its rate to 11p (or more) and gain extra revenue.

So Scotland will have to set up a whole new tax department and bureaucracy, at great expense

<£200Million isn't it?

Dual nationality, **** off.
Either you want to be part of the uk or you want an independent Scotland.

To want both IS taking the piss.

chip - Member
Dual nationality, **** off.
Either you want to be part of the uk or you want an independent Scotland.

To want both IS taking the piss.

Who wants it? Not any I can think off.

Why would I want English citizenship if I have Scottish?

I can understand English born Scots residents wanting it if England and its territories leave the EU.

Edit: I forgot - there will be a class of people needing this. The lying Scottish politicians of Project Fear. They will need it to get their reward of elevation to that great democratic institution, the House of Lords. I suggest that such a provision exists purely for their benefit.

Voting No is a leap of faith.

The big one with the rUK is an EU vote as well. That is a big unknown.

Talk about spoilt kid syndrome, Scotland already gets more than most other parts of the UK and will get even more.

There's no such thing as EU citizenship

It as rights as well such as free movement that non EU nationals do not have.

So if the yes vote wins through the Scottish will not be independant untill Independence Day .
Until which Scottish people will still be part of Europe.
And will Scotland have to what untill Independence Day to come before being ble able to enter discussions with the EU.

So will there be a period of time where Scotland is no longer part of the uk so no longer part of Europe untill they finalise the details of Scotland joining the EU.
And for that period of time would Scots abroad working under freedom of movement have to return home or stop working at least. Or will the EU offer a period off grace while everything is going through.

chip - Member
So will there be a period of time where Scotland is no longer part of the uk

British passports will still be valid, so no workers won't need to return home.

Scottish will not be independant untill Independence Day .
Until which Scottish people will still be part of Europe.

And will Scotland have to what untill Independence Day to come before being ble able to enter discussions with the EU.

So will there be a period of time where Scotland is no longer part of the uk so no longer part of Europe untill they finalise the details of Scotland joining the EU.

And for that period of time would Scots abroad working under freedom of movement have to return home or stop working at least. Or will the EU offer a period off grace while everything is going through.

And, really, the "powers" suggested aren't a help.

Well make your mind up - they are essentially what the DO is calling for. He doesn't want independence, just a little bit more ego-juice.

So Scotland will have to set up a whole new tax department and bureaucracy, at great expense, and won't get any more money because of it.

Where is the smiley Ben? That is a corker...

The only logical choice is to vote to be able to decide these things for ourselves, not rely on Westminster promises - we know what they're worth.

And yet, you still are going to have Westminster (as a foreign country) dictating you main instruments of policy. You only get more ability to do much less. That's a crock....

At least the DO seems to have read part of the FC report today and is tempering his views in sterlingisation. Which way is the wind blowing today, Alex?

God knows but I would imagine they would give a period of grace but it is just a guess. Would also be an issue for scots living in england and english in scotland though ; that would be a proper mess that i assume all would want to avoid.

Don't forget EU citizens in Scotland - the Sturgeon told us [i]“If Scotland was outside ­Europe, they would lose the right to stay here,"[/i]

Where is the smiley Ben? That is a corker...

I knew someone would pick up on that 😉

Yes, if we have independence we also have to set up that tax system and bureaucracy - the difference is it'll be ours to control everything, and we'll have more money to pay for it with as we'll control all government income, not just a part of it.

Not paying maintenance costs for Trident alone will probably cover it.

Does that include the rate of corporation tax, Ben? How is that going to be set? At a discount to what?

Ninfan that is a given as it is just the reverse question. Howevre when a ys voter/politician states this fact its a threat.

Well, it would be a threat, and no, it isn't a given - since to exclude or remove any rights from EU citizens as revenge for losing their own freedom of movement would be a tit for tat decision entirely of the new iScottish governments own making.

A freeeeeeee Yorkshire will not have all the trappings of it's former colonial masters and their hangers on. Our own currency, Not members of the EU unless they beg us an let us set the rules and pay us, no royal family unless they pay their way and live here as a visitor attraction, an independent nuclear deterrent against marauding Scots (given their history) and southern Jessies (given their thieving tendencies).

Only the most stupid would vote for independence while hoping thing will not change much, other than not be told what to do by those they don't like. We need change we need Freedom for Yorkshire and we need it to be free (we'll not be ripped off).

ninfan - Member
Well, it would be a threat, and no, it isn't a given - since to exclude or remove any rights from EU citizens as revenge for losing their own freedom of movement would be a tit for tat decision entirely of the new iScottish governments own making.

Love the direction of your arguments though, you always come at it from a line of things are bad if they aren't the same as they currently are in the perfect UK system.

I'll give you a wee clue, the point of independence is change!

What rights ? they are not in the EU and those rights have lapsed as iS is not longer a member and those lwas no longer apply - just like the EU.
it also wont be iS who allowed to them to lapse it will be the EU- clearly iS want to remain.
However though you are correct when the EU causes this scenario and iS does the same as the EU obviously only iS are the baddies and issuing threats which is why i said it.

I am glad you are here to bring principles and clarity to the debate

Thanks.

Seosamh:

You see, I think that the politicians who go around threatening to throw their dollies out the pram every five minutes that live on a different planet

[i]if we don't get currency union, we'll default on our debt,
if we don't get EU citizenship, we'll remove Europeans right to live here,
if we don't get EU membership, we'll ban EU fishing boats from passing through international waters[/i]

Junky:

when the EU causes this scenario and iS does the same as the EU obviously only iS are the baddies and issuing threats which is why i said it.

Hmm, you see its not the EU causing this scenario is it? its Scotland that has expressed a plan to leave, knowing full well that if they leave, they will have to reapply to get back in.

You see, I think that the politicians who go around threatening to throw their dollies out the pram every five minutes live on a different planet

if we don't get currency union, we'll default on our debt,
if we don't get EU citizenship, we'll remove Europeans right to live here,
if we don't get EU membership, we'll ban EU fishing boats from passing through international waters

If only everyone could be as reasonable and principled as you
Why wont these scots just give everyone everything they wont and be whilst getting nothing back

Ungrateful threatening picts eh removing the EU citizenship by not being allowed to join the thing they want to join

if we don't get EU citizenship, we'll remove Europeans right to live here,

just give everyone everything they wont and be whilst getting nothing back

Like Currency Union 😆

not being allowed to join the thing they want to join

Don't leave then 😆

Nine fan I don't understand your concern with EU citizens being able to live and work in Scotland,over the right of Scottish people being to live and work in other eu countries .

Surely a non EU Scotland could legislate to allow citizens of other nations to live and work in Scotland, it is the other way around you will have no control over.

ninfan - Member
Seosamh:

You see, I think that the politicians who go around threatening to throw their dollies out the pram every five minutes that live on a different planet

if we don't get currency union, we'll default on our debt,
if we don't get EU citizenship, we'll remove Europeans right to live here,
if we don't get EU membership, we'll ban EU fishing boats from passing through international waters

aye the UK never bully anyone, ever! 😆

That's politics, you adopt a negotiating position and work from there. These positions aren't always fluffy and nice.

and well you know that.