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Linux is still terminal-based, so if the random GUI that the distribution supplier has plonked in doesn't work then you'll need to dive into the terminal, and you'll need to understand what you're doing as copied and pasting instructions from the internet will almost certainly not work.
Just try a different distro. Once you get the hang of live-booting you can spend all day testing options and not change a thing
- system and application updates take ages and you still have to restart.
I only have to reboot either for a kernel update or a new graphics card driver
- unless you export as PDF you still can't use any of the free "office" suites to modify a Word or Excel document because the formatting is just far enough off track to look naff.
Mainly (but not wholly) because Office does its own thing to its own standards. The ISO 26300 standardised office format (ODF) has been around for 25 years but the latest version is only partially supported by MS
It's interesting that Libre Office is backward-compatible with more of the older Windows versions than MS Office. MS is about forcing people to update and buy new stuff. My old Win8 notebook runs on MX Linux (Debian) still
Its more than a decade old and beginning to struggle to run stuff.
Ten years old is not old. I use ten year old PCs every day, they are fine. If you are going to pay someone to build you a PC you can pay them to re-install plain Windows (without the manufacturer's junk) and it'll work fine.
The only exception to that rule is Windows 11 - it may not work on your old PC, because they introduced a requirement for a security device that is not present on some older machines. But it might.
In your situation I wouldn't bother. Think of Linux in the same way you view your old motorbike. Yes, it works, and you could use it every day, but would you recommend it to someone who knows nothing about bikes or cars and just wants to get to work?
To illustrate this, you asked what 'distro' means. It is short for distribution. See, Linux itself is just a kernel, that means the core of the operating system that runs your programs. On top of that is a common set of utilities that everyone uses, then there's another layer of tools and programs that are widely used but there are multiple alternatives for the same things. For example, there are tools that download and install software for you (called a package manager) which is great, but there are several different ones. So people have compiled whole sets of these tools with everything you need to use your computer, but there are different compilations and these are called distributions. There are dozens if not hundreds, all designed with different jobs and people in mind. On top of that, the visual interface that you actually use is a separate software package and there are many of these, some distributions come with one, some come with alternatives you can swap between. So when people talk about 'Mint' or 'Ubuntu' they mean one of these compilations of software. Additionally, all these software components have different versions, and they can conflict with each other, which is why you need the package manager. Sometimes they automatically update, sometimes not. Package managers also have a common repository of software that they download from, but not everything is in those repositories so you sometimes have to add other repositories.
Conversely, Windows is just Windows (ok so there's 10 and 11) and MacOS is just MacOS. They both also have package managers by the way; the Windows Store or the App Store.
MS is about forcing people to update and buy new stuff.
This is rubbish. Microsoft have massive support for old kit. Windows 10 came out ten years ago and is just ending support in October. But it still works. In fact, in the days of Windows 95/98 preserving support for old kit was a major problem for them but they still did it.
I've got a 15 year old laptop running windows 10, even though it came with Windows 7 on it. And guess what? It works pretty well. Conversely I tried to boot up a Mac from 2012 and I couldn't do anything with it because no browser would support it. It's a nice brushed aluminium brick that can only go to landfill.
What's not so good:
system and application updates take ages and you still have to restart.
Erm that's Windows
Linux (Arch in my case, btw) takes seconds to update everything all in one go. Usually single digit seconds.
Windows takes 10s of minutes of spinning wheel, and that's just the OS updates. Then need to manually go and update a load of applications separately.
Been using Linux since Debian was alpha/beta. What's that 30 years?
Great to see that all the best things Windows has done recently are the one to "be more like Linux". Shame they also keep removing really useful features such as the Start Menu functionality.
Mint is a good starting place to tinker. AFAIK, that one has numerous start menu options so you can have it like Windows 7,8,10,11,OSX,XP,2000,... just how you like it (or used to like it), without being dictated to how your workflow is going to be.
And with Mint you more than likely won't ever need to touch a terminal. Certainly no more than you need to touch command.exe or powershell in windows.
Remember, if you don't pay (Linux) you aren't the product. If you do pay (Windows), you are the product. None of this AI nonsense in Linux spying on you. And no cloud for your OS provider to collate all your info in one convenient place for NSA/GCHQ.
With that lot ^^ you just copy and paste into a programme that's installed with every Linux by default, after that it might become part of the "normal" update routine. I say "might" because some do, like Firefox, and some remain stubbornly independent with their own update option, but that's no different to stuff under Windows
Absolutely , and it doesn't stress me at all because I've been around this stuff forever and I'm happy to put in the time to learn a new system. However it's gobbledegook if you aren't used to it and you could end up typing bad things into your computer. Whenever I look up topics that I know about on the web the majority of answers to problems are at minimum wrong and a few will make the situation worse. I'm really not sure that is what tj is looking for. The question was whether or not there is an open source solution that is easy enough for a casual user and Im not sure we are there yet or at least not there enough for someone to want to give up their years of learning to start again unless there is a bit more of a reason than Microsoft kowtowed to Trump
- the backlight on my laptop is for some inexplicable reason brighter on Linux than Windows.
- all the bits and pieces on my laptop had drivers out of the box.
Probably because Linux lacks a native driver to control the backlight and so runs it at full tilt. 😁
I'm really not sure that is what tj is looking for.
I want to be able to browse the net, word process, use messaging apps and look at my pictures without paying any money to supporters of fascism like apple and microsoft
unless there is a bit more of a reason than Microsoft kowtowed to Trump
Thats important to me.
Edit.
A Linux Mint install should do those things for you TJ if the ‘messaging apps’ are browser based then for sure
also, some handy open source image tools available GIMP I suppose is still going but darktable looks like a very neat Lightroom alternative
for home use I still hand my money over to Apple. I have one gripe about MacBook Pros but aside from that they do what I want when I want to for years
However, if you do want to abandon the commercial offerings I’d echo the Linux Mint suggestions. That worked for an old PC I found in the cellar and produced an adequate machine for Linux playing around. And without too much nerdery needed.
messaging apps - signal, whatsapp and messenger ( yes I know messenger and whats app is run by these folk but its the only way I have of contacting some folk)
I don't see any harm in trying this out. My suggestion would be:
Ubuntu LTS
This is probably the most widely used distribution, almost any Linux software you want will support running on Ubuntu for this reason.
The LTS version will have 5 years of support before you need to upgrade.
It also supports Snap which allows you to install software from outside the Ubuntu world very easily.
For example the 'Signal' and 'WhatsApp' examples from above, well actually on Ubuntu you just open the Snap store from the menu and search for Signal or WhatsApp
Mint is a fine option also, however, it does not include Snap by default.
Have any of the linux distro creators shown any resistance to Trumps policies? I think ubuntu is UK based and suse German, but both those countries have also kowtowed to Trumpian dystopia politics, and are more than eager to hand over the keys of the kingdom to the techbros so any feelgood factor felt from switching to them would merely be a placebo effect.
Anyone believing there are any major differences between linux and windows in relation to updates causing disruption are living in a fantasy world.
The biggest problem with microsoft/windows now is that they have a very specific vision of how things should be done, and if you deviate from that vision then they don't care, fitting in edge case scenarios is not in their business model even if they are fairly common problems, they want to sell subscriptions and support rather than engaging with customers to make their products work. But that isn't a problem with microsoft alone, that is becoming a too predominant business model in the whole of IT supply, and has really started to become a headache for me over the past couple of years being an IT engineer in a predominantly air gapped environment.
However that doesn't really apply to home users, IMO stick to windows for an easy life. All the major corporations are pretty evil, I think apple probably have the best track record for standing up against government overreach, but I wouldn't trust any of them, even most of the supposedly private and secure browsers are largely a sham.
I am afraid that the only solution to corporate overreach into our lives is political, and it is a solution no major political party in the western world is offering to solve from what I can see.
I would not be helping fund him - thats the difference. Do not let perfect get in the way of as good as I can
I want to be able to browse the net, word process, use messaging apps and look at my pictures without paying any money to supporters of fascism like apple and microsoft
Good luck. Where does all your hardware come from? Who's funding the sites you use? Etc etc. It might make you feel better to pretend though, so go ahead. Try Ubuntu today, let us know how you get on!
The work required for installing Signal is for... various reasons.
Ubuntu, the Linux distribution most frequently recommended to beginners is based on Debian GNU/Linux.
Debian has a long history with the Free Software Foundation, which is formed around the philosophy of free software with the free referring to the freedom of access to that software above and beyond the financial meaning of the word. They don't include any software that is a black box, no software that you cannot look inside and learn about the workings of and adapt and improve for your own needs. Any software failing to provide the source code to allow this doesn't get in.
Personally I think this is an admiral policy, but more often than not it clashes with corporate interests, and that's where the tensions arise. Some corporate interests want to take the work of open source software, adapt it for their own needs, but skip the whole giving back to the community bit (which some people argue should be perfectly acceptable). Others are better behaved and do contribute back, particularly for the kernel of the operating system, the "Linux Kernel", the bit that is actually what Linux is.
Signal is a black box, however they do package their software up for Debian based distributions, and do also host it in their own software repository (or repo). You can add the Signal repo to the software package manager configuration so you can then use the built in Debian/Ubuntu software package manager to install Signal, update it, and remove it. It's a one time configuration* for the life of the OS installed on your device. *a major update might require you to add it back in.
wget -O- https://updates.signal.org/desktop/apt/keys.asc | gpg --dearmor > signal-desktop-keyring.gpg cat signal-desktop-keyring.gpg | sudo tee /usr/share/keyrings/signal-desktop-keyring.gpg > /dev/null echo 'deb [arch=amd64 signed-by=/usr/share/keyrings/signal-desktop-keyring.gpg] https://updates.signal.org/desktop/apt xenial main' | sudo tee /etc/apt/sources.list.d/signal-xenial.list sudo apt update && sudo apt install signal-desktop
It's basically four lines you copy and paste - one at a time - into a terminal and press enter. The third line will require you to enter your password to authenticate system changes. The fourth line does also, but should remember that you've just authenticated yourself already (depending on system configuration out the box).
It's way easier than the ./configure && make && make install process from the early days!
Good luck. Where does all your hardware come from? Who's funding the sites you use? Etc etc. It might make you feel better to pretend though, so go ahead.
I do what I can. No pretense. I know its not perfect but surely its better than not trying. funding for sites? I pay for here and spotify. Other sites I kill all trackers adn cookies so they get minimal data to sell from me if I am unclear on funding. Guardian is funded by donations. I use anonymising browsers
Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough
Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough
The thing is, we are suggesting the more realistic good, you are chasing a fantasy of more perfection based on not knowing the corporate background. Look how many championed the brave browser over the past few years, only for it to be revealed as a sham. I agree with your intent, but with little knowledge we are all open to be scammed by those offering snake oil solutions that don't really exist.
Dumping twitter, facebook and amazon are probably the sensible good, going beyond that becomes a lot more murky where the reality will rarely match the intent, which is the unobtainable "perfect".
Google are probably the worst of the worst, so hopefully you don't use chrome, watch youtube or have an android phone.
Google are probably the worst of the worst, so hopefully you don't use chrome, watch youtube or have an android phone.
OP said not:
I do not use google and am logged out of all google stuff on my phone and do not let it track me at all ( difficult but possible) so I have almost nothing to do with google either
For example the 'Signal' and 'WhatsApp' examples from above, well actually on Ubuntu you just open the Snap store from the menu and search for Signal or WhatsApp
That's really helpful, thanks. That's just what is needed
The only exception to that rule is Windows 11 - it may not work on your old PC, because they introduced a requirement for a security device that is not present on some older machines. But it might.
It certainly won't (without a hack). There's also a CPU requirement and that wasn't released until 2017.
Microsoft have massive support for old kit. Windows 10 came out ten years ago and is just ending support in October. But it still works. In fact, in the days of Windows 95/98 preserving support for old kit was a major problem for them but they still did it.
I've got a 15 year old laptop running windows 10, even though it came with Windows 7 on it.
I have a 2011 Lenovo and a 2008 Dell as a backup, the latter came with Vista. Both run Windows 10, though TBF the Dell has had a number of upgrades. The boot time between the Lenovo and the much newer (2018) i7 Portégé sat next to it running W11 is about the same. My daily driver I'm typing on right now is a desktop, the motherboard is from 2009.
Granted the old Dell is creaking these days and hardly gets used, but viewed in isolation "age" is no indicator of ability. (And the same with computers...)
Windows 10 > W11 is the first major hardware requirement leap Microsoft has made since XP > Vista.
Microsoft have also started pulling support for older kit, it became an excessive and unrealistic burden, that is not one of the reasons I would choose between one or the other unless you knew that they supported some specialist hardware that you require.
It does amuse me that two of you have attacked me for an attempt to do something even if its imperfect. I know its imperfect, I am doing what I can and merely wondered if there was an open source OS that I could use to avoid giving microsoft money.
It does amuse me that two of you have attacked me for an attempt to do something even if its imperfect
I don't think I attacked you, I just suggested that the trade off vs the learning curve might not be one be one that you want to make (although the Snap thing does change that). We rely on computers for so much of day to day life now that making that life more difficult to avoid giving Microsoft a small amount of money is a tough call. It's the same with lots of stuff now such as methods of travel, finding the right balance vs principles is tough
I know its not perfect but surely its better than not trying.
I'm certainly not attacking you, I'm just pointing out that it's only a gesture that might make you feel better. Rapacious capitalism is so completely embedded in our society (and has been for a good few hundred years) that the only thing we can do is try to affect the ballot box. That means time spent campaigning or doing something visible is better than time spent learning about Linux. That's why using Windows and Google whilst campaigning against it isn't a contradiction.
We're all trapped - gnawing off our legs to escape isn't ideal - better to try and get people to want traps banned.
Seems to be that BY FAR the biggest problem in tech is social media and what its neoliberal overlords are enabling. That dwarfs any grubby pragmatism from Microsoft or whoever.
I do like Linux, but you need to not consider yourself a techno-befuddled old man and think of yourself as someone who can learn stuff and sort things out. It's not terribly hard you just have to back yourself.
I do like Linux, but you need to not consider yourself a techno-befuddled old man and think of yourself as someone who can learn stuff and sort things out. It's not terribly hard you just have to back yourself.
Remember, if you don't pay (Linux) you aren't the product. If you do pay (Windows), you are the product.
Don't think that argument works like that. But it doesn't apply to Linux anyway.
Having said all of the above earlier, I forgot about Elementary OS, which is based on Ubuntu and actually quite pleasant to use.
It does amuse me that two of you have attacked me for an attempt to do something even if its imperfect. I know its imperfect, I am doing what I can and merely wondered if there was an open source OS that I could use to avoid giving microsoft money.
The answer to that question is a resounding 'yes'.
Just download mint and fire it up from a USB flash drive to test it out.
It will run slower from a flash drive though, rather than being installed properly, but it's fine for a test drive.. What's to lose?
Bloody hell, have you still not installed it!?
Bloody hell, have you still not installed it!?
:-=) I don't own a flash drive 🙂 Im still pondering and reading the usual info you kind folk have given me. I'm also scared 🙂 Old dog and new tricks and all that
Microsoft have also started pulling support for older kit,
Such as? I can see plenty of reasons why things might stop working, but actively pulling support? Unless by "support" you mean "no longer maintained" rather than "no longer works."
The Windows Driver Framework has only extended since Vista, it's all backwards-compatible. If a driver works in a well-behaved manner on Vista then - in theory - it should still work on Windows 11. (If you want a mind-bending insight into what a hot mess Windows drivers were prior to Vista, look up "windows driver model" on Wikipedia.) The reverse isn't true, whilst (say) a given W7 driver should work with W10, a W10 driver may not work in Windows 7. You have in essence got the opposite problem - newer hardware might not work with older OSes because the drivers simply don't exist, they were never written/updated..
Where you will definitely hit issues is with the gradual shift from predominantly 32-bit to 64-bit architecture. Modern versions of Windows are x64-only and have been for some time, so any old hardware which only ever had a 32-bit driver written for it is going to be problematic.
Way back when dinosaurs like me roamed the Earth and we were transitioning from 16- to 32-bit architecture, the 32-bit address space was already in place only hacked up into lumps so that a 16-bit CPU could see it; thus, running 16-bit apps in a 32-bit OS was relatively simple (it's a process hilariously called "thunking"). The same isn't true on Planet 64, 32-bit apps run in what you might call an emulator. After this, things get a bit complicated. 😁
None of this of course is a situation unique to Windows, or indeed to PCs.
I suppose that is one difference between Windows and Linux. Windows increasingly hides what it's doing unless you're a developer; with Linux you'd be expected to comprehend at least some of what I just wrote. 😁
with Linux you'd be expected to comprehend at least some of what I just wrote
could you write it in english please 🙂
As I'm massively over-invested in this for absolutely no reason I can think of, if you dm me your address I'll send you a USB with a live bootable/installable copy of mint or something for you to try if you want?
And we're up and running ..
STeam, Whatsapp and signal aren't pre-bundled, but if you open the 'software manager' app, there are clients for both you can download.
'software manager' Basically basically works the same way as the google play store, or the apple store.
No command line text required! 
As I'm massively over-invested in this for absolutely no reason I can think of, if you dm me your address I'll send you a USB with a live bootable/installable copy of mint or something for you to try if you want?
No need mate. I will have a go at some point soon and let you know how I get on
Dont know why the image didnt work properly in the last post, STW forum strikes again!
Using Linux is like gnawing our legs off? Rather overly dramatic isn't it?
I tried to get a USB device working under Linux this week. It took me two days and I'd like to think I know a bit about computers.
In fairness it was an extreme case, it was a development board using (Windows) Visual Studio Code with the PlatformIO extension - neither of which I've used before - bolted into Ubuntu via the Windows Subsystem for Linux. Not something TJ is ever likely to encounter, my point is simply that when something doesn't work it can be a right pain in the arse.
(Should anyone care, this was what the fix looked like)
Ffs, can everyone just imagine the Pablo Escobar meme with Mr Escobar waiting to hear how TJ gets on installing Mint?
The fact I run Linux as a daily driver but can't get images to work on here today, should tell you everything you need to know about how easy Linux can actually be!
I suppose that is one difference between Windows and Linux. Windows increasingly hides what it's doing unless you're a developer; with Linux you'd be expected to comprehend at least some of what I just wrote.
I find the biggest difference is that when you look for solutions to problems on the internet, for Microsoft people just seem repeat wrong solutions to the problem without any actually experience of the actual issue and are just plain wrong, while with Linux people like to massage their own egos and write to show off their own knowledge rather than actually offer a helpful solution, and are still usually wrong.
@couger I am having to run VMS emulation for 16bit applications, hosted on windows 2012 and 12 year old servers because the mission they are needed for doesn't have the budget to replace them.
Ffs, can everyone just imagine the Pablo Escobar meme with Mr Escobar waiting to hear how TJ gets on installing Mint?
The fact I run Linux as a daily driver but can't get images to work on here today, should tell you everything you need to know about how easy Linux can actually be!
Sounds like user error to me 😉
But jokes aside.. The image upload facility on the forum is a little bit... How can I put this politely?.. A bit clunky!
Does STW run on windows or linux?
🤣
It's absolutely user error, I'm blaming being on my phone but really, it's user error.
It's a massive yes, you would be foolish, don't do it. The fact that you're even talking about using a desktop says everything. Buy a new or refurbished laptop loaded with windows and go on another mad adventure so we can enjoy your pics!