[Closed] Old car amnesty.

Still only in discussion, but ford uk are so confident it will be introduced they have adjusted there projected figures for the year to take it into account.

[url= http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/commentaries/3804 ]George Monbiot[/url] reckons it'd be more cost effective to burn £10 notes as biomass!

Aren't the green credentials of the scheme a little questionable?

Which produces more harmful emissions, building a new car or running an old car?

Is it more a scheme to create car sales to prop up the industry?

Aren't the green credentials of the scheme a little questionable?

Not normally a big Monbiot fan, but I read that and couldn't find a single word I disagreed with!

Ok so my cars worth under 2k, but I could prob get that much knocked off a new one anyway, or buy 2nd hand low mileage for even less, so whats the point?

point is the UK car factories can make cars again

You can also negotiate with the dealer on top of 2k discount.

Therefore you should be able to get a new car for the price of a recent low miles 2nd hand.
Very good deal & in Germany / France where it has already been implemented it's been a huge success.

What's this? I assume you need to commit to buying a new car to get 2k for your old banger?

......point is the UK car factories can make cars again.....

Which is good why?

The two car manufacturers that are struggling the most are I believe Land Rover and Mini, one a manufacturer of large, fuel-inefficient vehicles and the other a manufacturer of 'lifestyle' cars that are often brought by people who live in large metropolitan areas where greener forms of getting about are available (cycling, public transport etc) or are second cars.

Of course none of this though addresses the fact that the £2000 can be spent on a car built anywhere, not just the UK and as only 15% of the cars on UK roads are built here thats an awful lot of public money which is being turned into profit for foreign countries.

in Germany / France where it has already been implemented it's been a huge success

... in what terms ?
(I think you're missing their ^ point, Marge)

I assume you need to commit to buying a new car to get 2k for your old banger?

You probably will. Which shows how non-green the scheme is.

Now, if we were paying people for getting rid of their car altogether...

maybe they should employ former car workers in free/cheap "repair your banger" schemes instead

Look at britains roads and tell me how many cars are sctually made in the UK! Most cars in the UK are imports, yes there are some domestically manufactured cars but the majority of what is made here is export.

To get the British car manufacturers working you need the export market to pick up, how does the government plan to get that to happen?

[i]point is the UK car factories can make cars again [/i]

Germany calculated 65% of its schemes cars came from cars produced within Germany.

UK's? Alot lot less. The Times calculated <10% of cars. Its going to benefit overseas manufacturers.

Of course it will benefit showrooms/credit and other associated companies...

Its an absolute crock of shit though. Its churning more energy to put more metal on the roads. We should be thinking lowering/changing peoples buying habits is a good thing- no, the government is now saying we should keep buying new every year or so again. Tools.

A cynical person might think that this is the British Government taking a half-@rsed idea and using it to buy off motorists, what with the rise in duty on fuel and other cost of living rises.

The two car manufacturers that are struggling the most are I believe Land Rover and Mini

dont think that's true - mini are actually probably one of the better placed.

there's a lot to consider - like people buying an old scrapper for 50 quid to trade in for a new car and get 2k for it, all sorts of effect it will have on old used car prices (appreciation?!!!), the exact 'greeness' of it, whether it will just apply to UK built cars (and whether such application would be legal), whether you need to have owned that old trade in for a certain amount of time etc etc etc...

my dad wants a new car... we could change ownership of my old scrapper to him, he trades that in against a new car and i acquire his current car for cheap... but would there be limitations to being able to do that?

what will this do to used car prices?? all my cars have been over 9 years old!

mini are actually probably one of the better placed.

How so?

Even BMW have stated that due to Mini's being brought pre-dominantly by private buyers they are affected by the downturn heavier than most other manufactuers.

I guess thats why they cut 850 jobs, a 34,5% reduction in sales.

i'd be interested to know what proportion of cars sold generally in germany are german made. must be about the same as the scheme % - germans are quite patriotic when it comes to cars - and a lot of cars are built in germany anyway! ford vauxhall and obviously vw all build there

yeah, but they prob. reduced sales less than some others - Honda, Nissan etc..........

CP

Germany calculated 65% of its schemes cars came from cars produced within Germany.

Honda, Nissan etc supply cars to the company car and hire car markets which gives them a constant trickle of sales.

Mini are (as previously stated) predominately sold to private buyers, often as second cars, which makes them more vulnerable to 'tightening belts'. Oh and what with the housing market slumping the usual non-private buyers (estate agents) aren't exactly queuing up to buy new Minis.

I think Mini may be suffering at the hands of the Fiat 500 which seems to be selling incredibly well

I wonder if this would be 2k per car... if so, buy up 100 or so bangers and then trade them all for a nice Aston or something..

😆

ah well, whatever, doesn't really matter how mini are doing... my comment was based on honda closing their factory for 4 months, nissan laying off a lot of staff and vauxhall short working week and no nights......

not sure what you're quote above refers to, sootyandjim?

But Mini are also laying off staff, even though they are the only factory in the world that produces the Mini.

Ignore that quote.

This is not a "green" policy.

I'm pretty sure that the environmental cost of building a car far outweighs that of running one into the ground.

My car is an M reg Astra that I bought off a mate for £200. Although it is old, it is in fantastic condition and given that the owner worked for a Vauxhall dealership it still runs sweet as a nut. The fuel economy compares well with our main family car (An 04 Toyota Corolla), it's got a Catalytic converter, runs on unleaded. Can someone please inform me as to the environmental benefits of scrapping it and buying new?

Sooty makes some very good points. This seems to be more about supporting the car industriues, and appeasing global corporations, oil companies etc, than about actually securing British jobs. I mean, what about Woolies, and all the other companies that have closed down in the last few months, with huge job losses?

And what's wrong with a lot of older cars? How about, keep them running, and give incentives to people to train as mechanics, etc? If it's just about jobs?

The car market has been vastly oversaturated for ages. We do not need any more new cars on our roads. Too much of this throwaway culture. nothing is made to last, and landfill sites are filling up, just so's car and related industries can carry on making profit.

Why can't the car factories be turned into big recycling plants? Keep people in jobs, and provide a source of cheap materials for industries. Maybe less profit involved, but possibly better for society, and the planet.

I jolly well have not thought through the economics of this, and quite frankly I don't want to. I'm sure I've missed some fundamental point along the way, but I'm thinking more along the lines of what benefits society, rather than what fills the pockets of the global conglomerates.

"[i]The car market has been vastly oversaturated for ages. We do not need any more new cars on our roads. Too much of this throwaway culture. nothing is made to last, and landfill sites are filling up, just so's car and related industries can carry on making profit.[/i]"

I'd vote for you on the basis of that paragraph.

RB - When we eventually meet I'll make sure to use lube.

😉

I have heard the big catch is you will have to buy a car less than 1 year old.

I wonder how many of those running really old cars can actually afford to buy a car that is less than a year old? If they could afford that, would they not have traded up without an 'offer'?

Handy trick for the better off though - go out, buy an old car for peanuts and get 2 grand off a brand new car you would have bought anyway...

Handy trick for the better off though - go out, buy an old car for peanuts and get 2 grand off a brand new car you would have bought anyway...

Should do wonders for the banger market, as they're effectively worth £2k each... Might buy a dozen bangers @£50 each now and stockpile them to sell for a grand each once this comes in.

and the other a manufacturer of 'lifestyle' cars that are often brought by people who live in large metropolitan areas where greener forms of getting about are available

That's a vacuous argument. Minis are small and pretty efficient, and made by a company that's put a lot of effort into making its cars greener. BMW have done a lot for diesel technology, and it's because of them that you see premium luxury cars with diesel engines that are getting 35mpg instead of 20. A lot of cars are bought by people who live in cities - if it wasn't for Minis they'd be buying something else.

It's bad to be building new cars all the time - uses a lot of energy BUT (as with all these things, take note STW) there's another side to the argument. A more prosperous economy has more spare money to make things greener. How many green initiatives are being canned in R&D departments due to lack of money? People might've considered trading their old 30mpg car in for a new 50mpg, but couldn't afford it - this may help.

I sometimes agree with Monbiot but he often doesn't consider the economy in his hard-line stance.

There are no environmental credentials to this scheme. It takes around 5 tonnes of CO2 to make a new car, which will take so many years to pay back (and that's assuming you buy a more efficient model - by no means a certainty) that your new car will be near the end of its expected life before it starts to have an environmental benefit.

This is a bung for the car industry. I fail to understand why they are a special case, deserving of taxpayers' support more than any other industry.

Given I have a car which would qualify, and have been thinking about getting something bigger, did wonder whether this might be useful to me. But then realised that the best thing to do would be to sell my current car and buy a complete wreck before trading in, thus pocketing the difference 🙄

Personally I reckon if the motor industry does end up having to slim down, as painful as that might be (and rubbish if you work for a car manufacturer) it might just be one of the painful benefits to come out of the recession! This is all just politicians jumping on the latest bandwagon - they're all for decreasing car use when times are good, but now when there's the potential to really do something positive, the potential job losses suddenly make it a bad thing.

I fail to understand why they are a special case, deserving of taxpayers' support more than any other industry.

If you save 70g/km of CO2 (not unreasonable, you could be trading a 220g car for a 150g one) then it'd be paid back in 44k miles. 2-4 years for many people, so not beyond the lifetime of the vehicle at all. In any case, you would need to buy a new car eventually anyway so saying that 5 tonnes of CO2 is purely extra is nonsense. Are you subtracting the energy saved by recycling the metal from scrapped cars instead of virgin metals?

By persuading people to buy new cars you are bringing forward some of the energy consumption probably, but it's a lot more complex than you seem to make out.

This is a bung for the car industry. I fail to understand why they are a special case, deserving of taxpayers' support more than any other industry.

One more time, here's the reason:

[b]The car industry is huge, if it fails we ALL go down with it[/b]

Can you not see this? The interdependence of economic factors? The car industry is particularly hard hit, that's all. And it's not a special case either - the financial industry is being helped and the construction industry is being helped indirectly by the BOE/govt trying to encourage mortgage lending.

If you save 70g/km of CO2 (not unreasonable, you could be trading a 220g car for a 150g one)

By persuading people to buy new cars you are bringing forward some of the energy consumption probably

Hmm.
Are you absolutely sure, Molgrips? What's the carbon offset for building a new 'un? It's not just the materials, but the energy needed to manipulate those materials. How big is the car industry in the UK? Is it bigger than the IT industry, for example? What about the NHS? That's pretty sizable...

Volkwsagen saw a huge uptick in Germany - it had to make 40,000 more old model Polos to keep up with demand - at a time when they were just about to introduce the new model, which launched earlier this month. People were so keen to buy, they went for the old one at a time when most would wait a few months for the new model.

We've got an old Pug 306 banger (#450 from a friend) and a VW Golf Tdi we bought second hand that was about a year old. Mrs Udder does around 25k a year in the Golf. I work from home, the trails are on my doorstep and I'm not sailing at the moment, so the banger is used once a fortnight - last year I put 2,500 miles on it. The thought of spending around 6k to get a new car I won't use just doesn't appeal. Sorry, it don't add up for me, but it might for others...

The main pi55er for me is that, when the trusty, rusty Red Shed finally carks it, I'll have to pay more for my next banger!

"[i]The car industry is huge, if it fails we ALL go down with it[/i]"

You missed the word 'new' out of that. Some of the mechanics I've spoken to have never been busier!

"[i]People might've considered trading their old 30mpg car in for a new 50mpg, but couldn't afford it - this may help.[/i]"

As stated above, my 94 Astra and 04 Corolla, both 1.4, give very similar returns.

Plus which I have a pretty fixed disposable income. I only really need a second car as a run around so why should I go blow a good chunk of my cash on something I don't really want?

you also bring forward the point they buy another new car etc

Not neccessarily - baseless assumption. If someone's been used to crappy cars every two years then they get a spanking new one, I'd say the inclination could be to keep it for a long time.

Only not unreasonable if you ignore the fact that cars haven't become that much more efficient

Not in the last few years, no. But if you're swapping a 15 year old car it'll probably be petrol since diesels weren't so common then, and it'll probably be emitting more CO2 than it did when it was new due to being old and less efficient. Plenty of 120g cars around now and that was unthinkable 15 years ago.

Are you absolutely sure, Molgrips?

No, of course not. I have no figures for the energy costs of new cars. I was just pointing out a flaw in someone else's maths.

I'm not neccessarily in favour of the policy, but it could be good for the economy. I am a die-hard greenie but I appreciate the role of the economy in the green revolution unlike some. I'm just countering some arguments being made above, that's all.

I think there are a lot of green possibilities being missed currently. Why not offer the £2k if the car you want to buy is say less than 120g/km for small cars and 140g/km for big ones? That'd get them flying off the shelves.

if you're swapping a 15 year old car

How many people driving about in a 15-year-old car are going to buy a brand new car just because it's £2k cheaper?

Mind you...

If the prices in the used car market increase as a result of this scheme, that could actually make buying and running a car more expensive. Maybe it is a green scheme after all?

But if you're swapping a 15 year old car it'll probably be petrol since diesels weren't so common then, and it'll probably be emitting more CO2 than it did when it was new due to being old and less efficient.

I drive a c9 year old diesel, it works there isn't anything wrong with it, it has done 140k miles and returns c60mpg. By virtue of this scheme its value would be 2k, To replace this car with an equivalent model would cost in excess of 14k.

I don't happen to have that sort of money, the car isn't broken, to buy a new car is of no benefit environmentally, etc. If i were to replace the car it wouldn't be made in the UK.

Then there is the obvious issue of where the money is coming from? the rate debt is being racked up, the increase in benefit claimants, bank bailouts etc.

The sole purpose of this scheme is to increase the purchase of new cars. It is therefore self-evident that it will increase the total number of new cars manufactured, and hence increase associated CO2 with their manufacture. There is also extra CO2 associated with the premature scrapping of existing cars.

It is also questionnable that the new cars will have lower emissions. What if people use the money to upgrade to a car with a larger engine?

People are also missing the fact that the car industry was screwed well before the financial crisis. Propping them up in the manufacture of products without a market or long-term viability is not doing the country any favours.

Why dont they scrap all those big diesel engined buses? You know, with the bollocks environmental ads on the side. That rankles.

I'd suggest your whole theory is so full of flaws

If you read closely you'll see that I don't have a 'theory' I am playing devil's advocate. That is, postulating things to maybe think about. So please let's not get nasty... 🙂 I already said I'm not neccessarily a fan of the scheme. I used IF a lot, because these are things that could happen. I disagreed with the way people were saying 'people will do this and that and the other' when it's definitely not neccessarily the case.

BTW diesels were plenty common enough 15 years ago

They were around (I drive one) but not as common as they are now - that was my point.

the figures I'm using are the ones in Monbiot's article which compares the average emissions of a current new car with the average of a 12 year old car

Is the mean emissions figure the best one to take into consideration? I try and look further than the stats, there are always other things to consider.

Anyway as before stated, I think the scheme could work if it's linked to buying a greener car. Maybe a sliding scale, so that you get more if you save more CO2. Then it's a double whammy - maybe saving CO2, maybe not - but helping the economy as well, which has associated green benefits.

Bailing out the banks didn't save any CO2 at all directly. So there. In fact, letting them all fail would've saved since people wouldn't be commuting to the city all day. Then again, we'd have been paying more in benefits. And getting less in tax revenues. Which means less room for tax breaks for green initiatives. But then green initiaves mean more new business, which could mean more new commuters to different jobs.. and so it goes on.

See how complex it all is?

I drive a c9 year old diesel, it works there isn't anything wrong with it, it has done 140k miles and returns c60mpg. By virtue of this scheme its value would be 2k, To replace this car with an equivalent model would cost in excess of 14k.

I don't happen to have that sort of money, the car isn't broken, to buy a new car is of no benefit environmentally, etc. If i were to replace the car it wouldn't be made in the UK.

Then there is the obvious issue of where the money is coming from? the rate debt is being racked up, the increase in benefit claimants, bank bailouts etc.

Ditto, except mine has 170+k on it, and a new equivalent would be nearer £20. Even with a £2k discount that's £18k. Why the hell would I even consider spending that (which would have to be on credit)when I can get a 3-4 year old model, 1 owner, FSH etc for £8-9k (paid cash up front) at the mo.

Let alone the environmental issues of scrapping loads of perfectly useable vehicles, or the financial implications of that many people taking out loans on luxury goods (which a car essentially is), that depereciate hugely the second they're taken out the showroom. Seriously, has nobody learnt anything from the CREDIT crunch??

Anyway as before stated, I think the scheme could work if it's linked to buying a greener car.

Seriously, has nobody learnt anything from the CREDIT crunch??