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Human toothpaste, is the gruesome phrase that springs to mind with things like the Byfield Dolphin incident. 🙁
So with the forces being described its strange that they are saying human remains have been found.
If the tub had imploded that woukd imply you wouldnt find bits of human, so did the sub actually loose pressure near the surface and then sink to the bottom? But then that wouldnt give the noise of an implosion that was heard.
Bit ghoulish this. It’s only correct that investigators report evidence of human remains but not sure of the value of speculating what these are on the basis of the physicality of the event.
But ghoulish this. It’s only correct that investigators report evidence of human remains but not sure of the value of speculating what these are on the basis of the physicality of the event.
There is no real value of any discussion on here about any part of the event.
However, morbid curiosity is part of human nature, that's why there is so much stuff involving murder in the media, both fiction and non-fiction. I currently watching the Hannibal TV series on Netflix. Millions have also done so. If that's not morbid curiosity what is?
I'll be honest, I asked the question on here a few days ago about what would be left of the victims and knew it was a bit morbid. However, it's the curiosity of the forces and speed of the event, which for me, are beyond imagination.
One engineer on the internet thought that due to the heat generated by the immediate pressure increase would of incinerated the victims as well as crushing them. This would appear not to be the case.
There is no real value of any discussion on here about any part of the event.
However, morbid curiosity is part of human nature, that’s why there is so much stuff involving murder in the media, both fiction and non-fiction. I currently watching the Hannibal TV series on Netflix. Millions have also done so. If that’s not morbid curiosity what is?
Objectively I prefer the instantaneous to slow drowning or 101 other ways.
Slightly off topic perhaps but When the Dust Settles by Lucy Easthorpe is extremely interesting on the subject of recovering human remains after disasters.
She points to the Lac-Megantic rail disaster as being a best practice re recovery of remains. As that was in Canada its entirely possible that some of the same team are involved in any recovery of human remains - however small they may be.
however small they may be.
Good luck with that, 4000m down with a ROV manipulator.
every piece of wreckage brought up will likely be examined to see if microscopic bits of human tissue or fabrics have been forced into it by the force of the implosion, if any is found they will be separated out, identified via DNA and returned to the families. Thats if the Lac-Megantic principles are followed
One engineer on the internet thought that due to the heat generated by the immediate pressure increase would of incinerated the victims as well as crushing them. This would appear not to be the case.
I don't think the internet engineer is all wrong, the implosion will have heated the air in the sub. So for a fraction of a second the air in contact with (including in the lungs) the crew will have crazy hot - perhaps over 1000 deg C. This won't have lasted long though as the crushed hull, crew and water will have mixed and cooled in a few hundredths of a second. It'd be like being in contact with white hot metal for a fraction of a second, burns, but only on the surface.
As some other posters have pointed out the 'remains' are probably just some organic material found on the fragments that can be analysed.
The only thing that keeps coming back to me thinking about this is that a child went down there to please his dad and complete his Rubix cube at the bottom of the ocean to set a world record.
The only thing that keeps coming back to me thinking about this is that a child went down there
TBF he was 19 but the rest of your post still stands.
Really don't understand all this stuff about recovering remains. Fair enough investigating the wreckage and cause of the vessel failure, but scraping bits of fat off it and DNA testing it just seems a bit pointless. It's not like they need identifying is it?
TBH its closure for the families, they'll have something they can bury.
And obvs part of the thorough accident investigation.
scuttler
Full Member
Bit ghoulish this. It’s only correct that investigators report evidence of human remains but not sure of the value of speculating what these are on the basis of the physicality of the event.
I can't remember ever seeing the word "assumed" being used in front of "human remains" before, then take into account that they had the equivalent of the Eiffel Tower dropped on them. I feel for anyone that is of the thinking that there might be some 'normal' remains being brought to shore
TBH its closure for the families
I doubt a few grams of organic material will provide that. Maybe they should ask them (maybe they have already)? I know what my response would be.
Respect for the dead and for the material scientists who are going to be analysing the mechanical remains of the wreck.
TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred ,wasn't the Byford Dolphin the worst ever diving accident(and not an implosion thou)
TBH I'd have thought the Kursk probably was (350 feet deep) but again not an implosion.
<p style="text-align: left;">I've said to friend that with such a sudden event, they are basically gonna have been instantly turned to fish chum.</p>
Think of it like a diesel engine – as the air in the cylinder gets compressed it heats up until it goes bang! This is the same but on a larger scale.
Not quite: the air in the cylinder is heated up until the vapourised fuel goes bang.
In the case of the sub the air would very briefly get very hot as it is swiftly heated by compression but would not itself then be able to go bang in the way a diesel engine does.
In similar situations oxygen very rapidly compressed to over 400 bar would realistically get to temperatures of 500C-1000C although the theoretical temperature of compression is several times higher.
In the case of the sub anything flammable could start to ignite in hot high pressure air, but would of course be quenched milliseconds later by the rapid inrush of cold water.
TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred
There has been quite a few over the years, however, I think all military which implode at much shallower depths.
I don't think there have been any losses of the ultra deep submersibles?
TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred
USS Thresher would have imploded (it suffered a reactor shutdown and sank). Any ship or submarine that sinks in deep water with intact sealed compartments will implode.
I came across quoting James Cameron:
"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency..."
I don't know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.
Yeah that's a very vague comment. The only thing I can think of is that those weights aren't with the rest of the wreckage, and "the community" involves those doing the salvage. Strikes me as a right shit stirring comment though that removes the "at least they never knew a thing about it" theory
Dropped weights some way from sub debris?
There's been no deaths on commercial submersibles for 60 years until now... also according to Cameron I guess that doesn't include military, I don't know about research.
Cameron has access to _the_ best experts in the field, and probably knows those involved in the recovery so I'm inclined to give weight to any statement he makes.
“We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency…”
I don’t know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.
There was tracking and comms.
If they had lost comms but the mother ship was still tracking them, then they would of known they were ascending.
Although Cameron did initially say that he was told that tracking and comms was simultaneously?
I don’t know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.
because they would have had positioning and comms up to the point it was lost.
Not quite: the air in the cylinder is heated up until the vapourised fuel goes bang.
Of course.... good point - Soz!
Strikes me as a right shit stirring comment though
Yes - it is.
Although Cameron did initially say that he was told that tracking and comms was simultaneously?
He did.
because they would have had positioning and comms up to the point it was lost.
If they had positioning then why the large search area?
I don't believe they were "managing an emergency" - surely if something goes wrong at that depth it's an instantaneous conclusion. You can't have "a bit of a leak".
I would much rather think that they knew nothing about it TBH.
The only thing I can think of is that those weights aren’t with the rest of the wreckage
Many things do not drop straight down in water and can land some distance from where they started falling.
If they had positioning then why the large search area?
because despite all the evidence pointing to a subsea implosion at the last known position, until they got a asset on site capable of getting down to the seabed and providing visual confirmation, they were working on the possibility there were lives to save.
Another compare and contrast.
TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred
A fair few if you start looking from Thresher though as a by-product of something else occurring rather than imploding due to deliberately going deep and failing. I'd imagine there were also implosion during war time when subs were damaged enough to start going down uncontrollably.
Whilst is does look a bit like shit stirring I suspect that as he knew one of the passengers for 25 years, in reality he is just angry that something happened that didn’t need to. Cameron is obviously passionate about deep submersible work and is probably beating himself up that he didn’t do more to stop this bunch of cowboys. It’s a very small community and clearly this tragedy could have been avoided if more in that community had made a fuss - however like the CEO Stockton, there was probably a bit of them that was optimistic. Now the whole community is reeling.
I think everyone should read this article, it gives much more background information from people who were directly involved with the project.
It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?
Well, I’ve just finished reading through that article, and frankly it’s heartbreaking. The whole idea was seriously flawed, Stockton Rush was warned that it was dangerous, and that people would likely die, and his answer was to threaten with legal and financial consequences.
It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?
That’s the thing, reading through that article it shows Rush was so obsessed with the project that he built in workarounds, like having everything legally operating from the Bahamas, outside of US law, and nobody was a ‘passenger’.
Thanks, excellent article, very sad and so avoidable.
WTF?
OceanGate’s lawyer wrote, “The parties found themselves at an impasse—Mr. Lochridge was not, and specifically stated that he could not be made comfortable with OceanGate’s testing protocol, while Mr. Rush was unwilling to change the company’s plans.” The meeting ended in Lochridge’s firing.
Soon afterward, Rush asked OceanGate’s director of finance and administration whether she’d like to take over as chief submersible pilot. “It freaked me out that he would want me to be head pilot, since my background is in accounting,” she told me. She added that several of the engineers were in their late teens and early twenties, and were at one point being paid fifteen dollars an hour. Without Lochridge around, “I could not work for Stockton,” she said. “I did not trust him.” As soon as she was able to line up a new job, she quit.
Excellent article with insight from some real authorities. Lawyers mentioned way too many times. And I guess there’s another round for them.
They may both be correct. ‘Remains’ in this case may refer to a thin veneer of human mince…
There was a case where someone went through a large gas turbine engine on static test (a suicide IIRC) and the "human remains" would have fitted in an icecream tub.
"“With titanium, there’s a purpose to a pressure test that goes beyond just seeing whether it will survive,” John Ramsay, the designer of the Limiting Factor, explained. The metal gradually strengthens under repeated exposure to incredible stresses. With carbon fibre, however, pressure testing slowly breaks the hull, fibre by tiny fibre. “If you’re repeatedly nearing the threshold of the material, then there’s just no way of knowing how many cycles it will survive,” he said."
Wanders out to look at three bikes in the garage with carbon forks and bars.......starts looking online for titanium replacements...
Excellent article with insight from some real authorities. Lawyers mentioned way too many times. And I guess there’s another round for them.
Exactly, that’s why I posted it up, it’s the first thing that I’ve read that seems to have real authority and authenticity to the content, the comments and quotes from people actually involved in what was going on behind the scenes need to be heard far more widely, I feel.
Certainly Stockton doesn’t come across as anything other than a narcissistic and selfish bully.
- Certainly Stockton doesn’t come across as anything other than a narcissistic and selfish bully.
Musk of the sea ?
It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?
Why, its in international waters BUT really who has a right to tell anyone what they can and can't do "because it's dangerous".
People really need to learn to keep their noses out of telling other people what they can and can't do based on what they decide.