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You really are a silly person who hasn't understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren't you.
“We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency…”
I took it to mean that the sub had communicated with the mothership and was ascending - presumably because they'd heard concerning noises / had concerning readouts from their sensors. Then some time after that, comms, tracking etc was lost.
I imagine everyone from OceanGate is keeping their lips tightly shut, now that it's clear the sub suffered a catastrophe. But at the time but it's certainly plausible that Cameron heard on the grapevine things which have still not been officially released by OceanGate, such as the fact the sub was ascending urgently.
You really are a silly person who hasn’t understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren’t you.
It's a reasonable position that people should be free to pursue unwise things, even if you disagree completely it. So I'm not sure the ad hominems are necessary. Unless SteveXTC is just being contrary to troll you - in which case he played you beautifully.
Yeah course he has, yeah totally played me - just Like Stockton played the Dawoods.
I've actually moved my position on this. Earlier on in the thread (much earlier on) I suggested that overall everybody could make their own decisions but that I was angry the kid had been dragged into it. Now the more people like stevextc ramble on about individual choice without having any skin in the game or literally any idea about anything it shows clearly to me that there should be even more protection, even for billionaires who should know better - basically to shield them from the clearly ever increasing march of the self assured well funded idiot.
who has a right to tell anyone what they can and can’t do “because it’s dangerous”.
Society assumes such a right in some circumstances. Not much point in arguing with it, you are unlikely to persuade it to give up.
1) Stockton Whatsisface is a narcissistic lunatic who pursued an unwise and deeply irresponsible programme of exploration against all advice, and persuaded / lured / tricked people into taking trips with him.
2) People should be free to do / explore what they want (in international waters) without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.
It's possible to hold those two views simultaneously, which I think is SteveXTC's position. I'm not saying I agree with it - just that it's a reasonable position to hold - depending on one's position on the auth / lib spectrum. So no need for name-calling.
2) People should be free to do / explore what they want (in international waters) without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.
Informed and authoritative people (aka whistle blowers) were shut down by lawyers representing someone with cash / clout. Where does that feature in the ‘world police force’ belief system?
I thought it odd that the expert/guide would put his name to this.
Then that article references his late wife & comments that “I’ve had a good life/ what a place to go out/ it’ll be quick”
it’s almost like he had a death wish, and Rush used his name/ experience to persuade the passengers, sorry “mission specialists”, it’s all ok.
To me he bears some level of responsibility by adding a veneer of acceptability to the charade.
It smacks of the dodgy “flight share” operation Wingly where people circumnavigate commercial flight regulations and the circumstances of the footballer that was murdered in the channel.
without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.
One of the issues with this position is that those involved will certainly not turn down the involvement of the "world police/rescue force" should the need for search and rescue occur, indeed they will probably expect it.
The international search, and now attempted recovery operation for Titan, will have cost many millions. No one seriously believes that OceanGate will be paying the costs.
Nor had the 5 individuals been successfully rescued that they would have dug into their pockets and paid for their own rescue.
It is not simply about their rights as individuals.
But that does not resolve the larger issue of whether wealthy travelers or companies should bear responsibility to the public and governments for exposing themselves to such risk.
Why are you lot still trying to play chess with a pigeon?
But that does not resolve the larger issue of whether wealthy travelers or companies should bear responsibility to the public and governments for exposing themselves to such risk.
Agree, but is that fundamentally a different argument when it comes to polar expeditions, yachting on open oceans, high mountaineering, or the more dangerous aspects of, say, mountain biking? The scale of cost is perhaps different but the argument is the same?
I’m not arguing in favour of SteveXTC’s position by the way - I’m arguing that he’s allowed to hold that view without being called names.
There's parallels here too with public health/'nanny state' stuff on things like smoking, junk food, gambling etc. Adults should be allowed to make decisions that other people don't think are a good idea, but it's not a fully informed decision if you've got a massive company with a huge marketing budget pushing you one way and no one arguing the opposite.
You really are a silly person who hasn’t understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren’t you.
I’m not sure the ad hominems are necessary.
Maybe not necessary but in this case quite entertaining imo, reminded me of the taunting french soldier in Monty Python's Holy Grail.
"Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person."
I was also hoping for "I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper".
The behind the Bastards podcast have been going over Stockton and what they've christened his 'Death sub' it's quite an entertaining way to hear about the whole debacle.
The guy was an utter cowboy, it was always going to end this way, Billionaire adventurers are kinda dickheads too (IMO), would the world scramble all those resources for some asylum seekers in dinghys?
That article Count posted earlier. Shit.
So many red flags along the way but the "disruptor" needs to disrupt even managing to fool himself that he has pulled wool over the eyes of physics itself.
As I'm sure its been alluded to, there are so many lessons to be learnt here in totally different areas in life. When people are demanding to get rid of red tape for a start. Like it's always an inherently good goal. Best to check why that tape was put they're in the first place!
I'm really hoping they got no warning signs the sub was in trouble before they were instantly killed... but it sound like they were even denied that tiny mercy that if the ballast was dumped.
I just can't get over thinking about the dad and his son in those minutes or seconds... I really hope there was no warning. I suspect we'll never know.
I'm really hoping they got no warning signs the sub was in trouble
Unfortunately not, from the article:
McCallum, who was leading an expedition in Papua New Guinea at the time, knew the outcome almost instantly. “The report that I got immediately after the event—long before they were overdue—was that the sub was approaching thirty-five hundred metres,” he told me, while the oxygen clock was still ticking. “It dropped weights”—meaning that the team had aborted the dive—“then it lost comms, and lost tracking, and an implosion was heard.”
would the world scramble all those resources for some asylum seekers in dinghys?
Unfortunately we know the answer to this.
Unfortunately we know the answer to this.
There are regular stories of migrants being saved by RNLI etc.
As I’m sure its been alluded to, there are so many lessons to be learnt here in totally different areas in life. When people are demanding to get rid of red tape for a start. Like it’s always an inherently good goal. Best to check why that tape was put they’re in the first place!
I find the ‘elf and safety gorn mad types’ don’t tend to frequent the places where this stuff is needed although are very vocal.
This had regulations but under the guise of ‘mission specialists’ and ‘experimental’ was circumnavigated as a passenger service.
You need both regulation and the ability to innovate and that was in place but was misused.
There are regular stories of migrants being saved by RNLI etc.
Yep not disagreeing with this but I’m thinking of the most recent
From air and by sea, using radar, telephone and radio, officials watched and listened for 13 hours as the migrant ship Adriana lost power, then drifted aimlessly off the coast of Greece in a slowly unfolding humanitarian disaster.
As terrified passengers telephoned for help, humanitarian workers assured them that a rescue team was coming. European border officials, watching aerial footage, prepared to witness what was certain to be a heroic operation.
Yet the Adriana capsized and sank in the presence of a single Greek Coast Guard ship last month, killing more than 600 migrants in a maritime tragedy that was shocking even for the world’s deadliest migrant route.
Winston
Yeah course he has, yeah totally played me – just Like Stockton played the Dawoods.
I’ve actually moved my position on this. Earlier on in the thread (much earlier on) I suggested that overall everybody could make their own decisions but that I was angry the kid had been dragged into it. Now the more people like stevextc ramble on about individual choice without having any skin in the game or literally any idea about anything it shows clearly to me that there should be even more protection, even for billionaires who should know better – .
Why? What is it gives someone else the right to determine what other people do for their leisure?
There is/was a whole load of testing and certification ... people on the Titan made their own mind up if they think its important to them or ignore it.
My objection is in legislation preventing them choosing to ignore the certification and disclimer in their leisure activity.
basically to shield them from the clearly ever increasing march of the self assured well funded idiot
but where does that stop ? It's all a slippery slope and those obsessed by controlling the safety of others don't stop at shonky subs.
I share the distaste for the 19yr old.... but he's old enough to vote and affect the lives of others
Superficial
1) Stockton Whatsisface is a narcissistic lunatic who pursued an unwise and deeply irresponsible programme of exploration against all advice, and persuaded / lured / tricked people into taking trips with him.
2) People should be free to do / explore what they want (in international waters) without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.
It’s possible to hold those two views simultaneously, which I think is SteveXTC’s position. I’m not saying I agree with it – just that it’s a reasonable position to hold – depending on one’s position on the auth / lib spectrum. So no need for name-calling.
That is exactly my position put better than I did.
and persuaded / lured / tricked people into taking trips with him
Perhaps or obviously except these were people with the means to check.
I thought it odd that the expert/guide would put his name to this.
Then that article references his late wife & comments that “I’ve had a good life/ what a place to go out/ it’ll be quick”
it’s almost like he had a death wish, and Rush used his name/ experience to persuade the passengers, sorry “mission specialists”, it’s all ok.
Again 2 separate things... if he has a death wish it's noone else's business. If his name is being used without saying "but he doesn't really care about dying" that's another.
There is/was a whole load of testing and certification
have you told the authorities of this new information regarding the sub.
if he has a death wish it’s noone else’s business
Well it is actually, in the case of the Titan quite a few other people's business, and many millions of dollars.
There are less disruptive and costly ways of ending your own life. Plus society has a limited but recognised duty of care towards those who want to end their lives.
I doubt many people would want to live in a society that didn't.
If you have the time to spare this quite interesting.
There are regular stories of migrants being saved by RNLI etc.
Ah well if there's "regular stories" humanity must be doing a bang up job of protecting the most vulnerable and definitely not prioritising a handful of society's mega-wealthy leaches...
https://www.rescue.org/article/greek-shipwreck-everything-you-need-know
There’s an ocean of differences between the two cases. In the case of the Titan, almost all of the initial effort was to search for it. In the migrant case it was known where it was. In the case of the Titan, there was a very fixed timeline to find and rescue a vessel in an unknown location and without communication.In the migrant case, it was a vessel without power, adrift in the sea in a known position and in communication. In the case of the Titan, crew rescue could happen by almost any size of vessel, in the migrant case you needed capacity for several hundred souls. For the Titan there were no legal questions, but for the migrants, this is far more complex.
I fervently believe wealth and fame had nothing to do with it, people who live and work at sea don’t usually dick about with this stuff.
There is/was a whole load of testing and certification … people on the Titan made their own mind up if they think its important to them or ignore it.
but… there quite obviously wasn’t. Whatever you may feel about peoples rights to make there own choices in this instance Steve, there simply wasn’t informed consent, and that is a crucial point that is completely escaping you
There’s an ocean of differences between the two cases.
I agree and I think that those drawing parallels between them are mostly just indulging in lazy, predictable point scoring.
but where does that stop ? It’s all a slippery slope and those obsessed by controlling the safety of others don’t stop at shonky subs.
Steve, can you explain how this slippery slope is actually a thing?
maybe complete the sentence... "first they came for our experimental deep water subs, and we did nothing. then...."
There is/was a whole load of testing and certification …
The CEO was selling it as a plus point that there wasn’t. Innovation and all that.
As I’ve said before, no one is stopping folk from trying to get themselves to the bottom of the sea. What they are doing is trying to stop dreaming chancers from being wreckless (in more ways than one, lulz) with other peoples (customers) lives.
The CEO and Oceangate themselves mis sold their safety and capabilities. They continually stated that the craft was developed and tested using U Washington and Boeing Composites, but this wasn't the case. The work completed by both was for sub-scale demonstrators at very reduced mission requirements. Later packages of work which weren't paid for or completed were supposed to test and develop for Titan. OG didn't continue this research and instead pressed ahead seemingly assuming that the results of subscale testing were directly projectable to the full scale product/mission and told prospective customers, that their product had been developed using those partners, which, in a sense it had, but the Devil's in the detail and that detail is what was either lied about directly or was a lie of omission on the part of OG and its CEO.
have you told the authorities of this new information regarding the sub.
but… there quite obviously wasn’t. Whatever you may feel about peoples rights to make there own choices in this instance Steve, there simply wasn’t informed consent, and that is a crucial point that is completely escaping you
Perhaps I need to clarfy that: There is/was extensive certification available but Oceangate/CEO decided to ignore it (or say it doesn't apply) but those on the sub and others offered the chance had the opportunity and resources to find this out and make their own decision EITHER/OR because they have the financial resources or because they are part of what Cameron called "the community".
This isn't a scheduled ferry/plane/train etc. it's not even a private charter of the type "uninformed people" might do as a one off balloon trip/aerobatic flight or driving the Nuremberg ring etc. its 4000m/13100' which puts it in the same sort of exclusive risk as a flight in a SR71 or land/water speed record / space shuttle
As Spin (I think) said earlier it's the classic black adder "nautical opinion is divided" to put that in OceanGate .. "everyone else thinks its an uncertified death trap"...
I was going to answer this separately but it seems to illustrate the difference ...
Jonnyboi
Steve, can you explain how this slippery slope is actually a thing?
maybe complete the sentence… “first they came for our experimental deep water subs, and we did nothing. then….”
Waverley council recently stuck their uniformed noses into bulldozing a jump.... (Pure Darkness) on health and safety grounds. Anyone who knew it (whether they rode it or not) would have to honestly say you couldn't accidentally roll in... it wasn't round some blind bend and a 20' gap you couldn't see you had to stare right down the roll-in.
no-one ever rolled into it uniformed ...
Ernielynch
There are less disruptive and costly ways of ending your own life. Plus society has a limited but recognised duty of care towards those who want to end their lives.
I doubt many people would want to live in a society that didn’t.
Have you even read what you wrote and thought it through?
A majority get to make up the rules for a minority on the only thing in their entire life they should have complete control over and criminalise it .. and we even call this a progressive society.
Have you even considered it is for many this obsession of a larger society with control over what we can and can't do that makes not wanting to wake up for another day in it more attractive?
Nuremberg doesn't have a ring road as such but getting to the airport can be tricky at rush hour
Stockton Rush undoubtedly "encouraged" "mission specialists" to part with their money to take a trip on Titan. How much of his sales pitch was true, how much an exaggeration and how much much pure sales pitch isn't clear but however he couched it, it cost four people their lives.
Daffy
Full Member
There’s an ocean of differences between the two cases. In the case of the Titan, almost all of the initial effort was to search for it. In the migrant case it was known where it was. In the case of the Titan, there was a very fixed timeline to find and rescue a vessel in an unknown location and without communication. In the migrant case, it was a vessel without power, adrift in the sea in a known position and in communication. In the case of the Titan, crew rescue could happen by almost any size of vessel, in the migrant case you needed capacity for several hundred souls. For the Titan there were no legal questions, but for the migrants, this is far more complex.I fervently believe wealth and fame had nothing to do with it, people who live and work at sea don’t usually dick about with this stuff.
I suppose we'll just have to disagree then...
I fervently believe money and fame had everything to do with the scale of the Ocean Gate response.
I also believe the lack of resources being thrown at migrant boats has everything to do with the lack of visibility, wealth, influence and media presence wielded by those aboard. It only made a "good Story" after several hundred people had died, and even now press seem to be tip-toeing around attributing liability or motives to the authorities involved.
Unfortunately not, from the article:
McCallum, who was leading an expedition in Papua New Guinea at the time, knew the outcome almost instantly. “The report that I got immediately after the event—long before they were overdue—was that the sub was approaching thirty-five hundred metres,” he told me, while the oxygen clock was still ticking. “It dropped weights”—meaning that the team had aborted the dive—“then it lost comms, and lost tracking, and an implosion was heard.”
Fortunately, Rush had also assured them that there would be plenty of time to abort the dive if the auditory sensors went off, so hopefully they still had a false sense of security up until the final millisecond.
From the article in The New Yorker mentioned above:
Rush was furious; he called a meeting that afternoon, and recorded it on his phone. For the next two hours, the OceanGate leadership insisted that no hull testing was necessary—an acoustic monitoring system, to detect fraying fibres, would serve in its place. According to the company, the system would alert the pilot to the possibility of catastrophic failure “with enough time to arrest the descent and safely return to surface.” But, in a court filing, Lochridge’s lawyer wrote, “this type of acoustic analysis would only show when a component is about to fail—often milliseconds before an implosion—and would not detect any existing flaws prior to putting pressure onto the hull.” A former senior employee who was present at the meeting told me, “We didn’t even have a baseline. We didn’t know what it would sound like if something went wrong.”
I fervently believe money and fame had everything to do with the scale of the Ocean Gate response.
Probably mostly money - because the would be Titan rescuers would be getting paid to be out there, either privately or via insurance.
those on the sub and others offered the chance had the opportunity and resources to find this out and make their own decision
I suppose that's what you tell your granny when she's the victim of some scam or fraud.
Your arguments are straw-clutchingly weak. You've lost, give up.
I fervently believe money and fame had everything to do with the scale of the Ocean Gate response.
Suspect the rescue response and coverage would have been similar if it was a crew of deep-sea scientists or rig dive specialists etc. I'm sure the money / fame element adds an additional juicy detail to write about though.
Fortunately, Rush had also assured them that there would be plenty of time to abort the dive if the auditory sensors went off, so hopefully they still had a false sense of security up until the final millisecond.
That's my take too. Must have been scary but perhaps not completely terrifying. Either way I'm not sure it matters too much, it sounds like it was a few moments (a minute?) of fear before they were instantly crushed. That seems to me better than spending days contemplating your inevitable asphyxiation.
I suppose that’s what you tell your granny when she’s the victim of some scam or fraud.
Your arguments are straw-clutchingly weak. You’ve lost, give up.
FYI that's not a rebuttal.
Comparing this to a scam of vulnerable people is very different, for the very reason that elderly people may not have the wherewithal to make informed decisions. Do you have the same sympathy for people who fall for the daft get-rich-quick BitCoin scams on TikTok? Perhaps the government should take everyone's money and keep it safe so they can't fall prey to such scams?
cookea
I suppose we’ll just have to disagree then…
I fervently believe money and fame had everything to do with the scale of the Ocean Gate response.
However much you or anyone else separates them or not it highlights the difference not only of the response but the media attention and how the two are intertwined. Whatever you think about legislation against extreme sports I can't see how people can't see a difference between doing something dangerous through sheer desperation and for shits and giggles.
but where does that stop ? It’s all a slippery slope and those obsessed by controlling the safety of others don’t stop at shonky subs.
There's no slippery slope here, look at climbing and mountaineering for example. The professional guiding/instruction side of it is regulated in a number of ways but there are no moves to stop individuals engaging in risky behavior themselves.
I suppose that’s what you tell your granny when she’s the victim of some scam or fraud.
My granny, were she alive didn't have a whole security staff whose job it was to inform her of risks.
Your arguments are straw-clutchingly weak. You’ve lost, give up.
What is the other argument? I haven't seen any other argument than some self appointed people wish to impose their rules on others.
Steve, am I reading it right that you think regulating the safety requirements for paying passengers on deep sea submarines is the sort of slippery slope that means a landowner may decide to remove mountain bike trails?
Spin
There’s no slippery slope here, look at climbing and mountaineering for example. The professional guiding/instruction side of it is regulated in a number of ways but there are no moves to stop individuals engaging in risky behavior themselves.
Yes and no ... which is saying directly and indirectly.
https://www.climbers-club.co.uk/sport-climbing-banned-in-france/
Whereas the legislation in France as in the UK is some backwards liability of landowners for what people choose to do on their land it is the same arguments.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/clifton-suspension-bridge-warning-base-7103879
https://www.hcn.org/issues/47.12/deaths-renew-calls-for-national-parks-to-rescind-base-jumping-bans
The irony being that making extreme sports illegal not only makes them more popular amongst some but increases the danger.