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A good proportion of certifications are really just marketing bollox…
Whilst that is true it should ring alarm bells if someone can't even get those.
Ultimately it would have saved 17 lives by banning assent of Everest just this year… but don’t people have the right to undertake risky adventures?
I'd say yes they do - provided they actually understand the risks, have cooling off periods after understanding all the facts etc. Personally I'm not sure "tourist" trips to Everest should be encouraged - if you want to go to Everest (or Ttitanic) then do the groundwork to plan the logistics, risks mitigations, select and buy kit, find the best sherpas etc yourself as a genuine participant in the adventure rather than a passenger. Here's another example with potentially high risk: I can go buy a yacht - say £25K would get you something squalid but seaworthy. I can choose to sail that boat across the Atlantic - not qualifications or certifications required. I can even chose to enter it in a trans ocean race (when the race organiser will expect me to meet their safety standards, but for that budget its probably just about possible if I shop carefully). I can take someone with me on that trip who is a friend and fellow sailor and its a joint adventure. I can get together with someone else (or a group of people) to buy the boat and its a joint adventure. Or I could rent a berth on my boat to someone with zero experience, to come as a passenger on the adventure of a lifetime for £5k and then we get into dodgy territory. In fact I could realise that there's enough people looking for adventures of a lifetime and constantly sell tickets on my cross ocean adventures, and dismiss any safety criticism as people who weren't understanding the adventure we were seeking and the boundaries we are trying to break. Marketed to look professional I could easily be milking mummies and daddies looking to add something to their offspring's CV and midlife crisis folk right up until the moment either something goes wrong or a regulator comes to ask what certification the boat and its crew have etc.
You can't take fare paying passengers on a yacht without insurance and certification for the craft and certification for the skipper.
@winston - thats the point I was trying to make - there's clearly still plenty of opportunity for people to genuinely go on sailing adventures but the uninitiated are protected from commercial shysters making up their own version of safe.
@thols - there was a recent Tom Scott video on youtube which with the right model in the pond would give you a very similar experience! Having zero desire to go to the titanic I pretty much agree with you. BUT I can see why people will pay more for the real thing - its about the scarcity of the supply that makes the price people will pay so high.
there’s clearly still plenty of opportunity for people to genuinely go on sailing adventures but the uninitiated are protected from commercial shysters making up their own version of safe.
With one of the races where you pay to be crew the authorities stepped in a couple of years back and required them to have two professionals on board rather than just the captain. Since several incidents had occurred due to the captain simply being overworked and overtired.
Overworked, overtired and overboard...?
A good proportion of certifications are really just marketing bollox…
Whilst that is true it should ring alarm bells if someone can’t even get those.
I would disagree in the case of the DNV GL stuff and their like, for high pressure systems, which this basically was.
I don’t understand how you can both not get it…
… and then get it…
People are allowed to take selfies... its not YOUR concern or mine if they die doing it, its that simple.
Anyone who wants to stop someone doing something because it's too dangerous in their opinion needs to be prepared to die to stop them.
wionston
You can’t take fare paying passengers on a yacht without insurance and certification for the craft and certification for the skipper.
Of course you can .. have you ever been to developing nations?
Yet the unregulated commercial tourist subs still get / expect all that rescue resource when things go wrong, despite not having done the work to show the vessel is safe.
Which ones are those? I know of tourist subs that cruise coral reefs, but I know of no other extreme deep-water exploration vehicles, other than those used by Cameron and those who’ve gone down to Challenger Deep. And nobody will get closer to the bottom of Challenger Deep than Titan did to Titanic with that level of shonkyness, that’s a fact.
Here’s the details of Deepsea Challenger, for example, which weighs 11.8 tonnes is 24ft long, and its test depth was 36,000 ft. The pilot sphere, emphasis on ‘sphere’, can only carry one person, that person being Cameron. Nobody else was put at risk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepsea_Challenger
Just showing on the BBC News the Titan wreckage being brought ashore.
@stevextc Obviously but we are not talking about water taxis in Bangladesh are we. Ocean gate is a US based company and was operating out of Canada. Clearly the point we are all making is that Stockton Rush would have needed more certification had he been sailing those paying guests in a 40ft yacht across the Atlantic rather than diving to the bottom of it which is crazy.
The pics of the wreckage seem quite telling. The titanium end cap that had the viewing portal in was being winched using a sling through where the portal should have been. It’s possible it was removed afterward or ejected as artefact of the implosion, but both seem somewhat unlikely.
Not sure I’d be so fast there. With the window in place the smooth, round, heavy object would be a pain in the arse to lift. Removing the window would make it really easy/safe
Not sure I’d be so fast there. With the window in place the smooth, round, heavy object would be a pain in the arse to lift. Removing the window would make it really easy/safe
Thought there was an investigation going to happen. Unlikely they would destroy evidence intentionally just to facilitate lifting.
Nothing to say the window was destroyed. Not that it would be easy to destroy. Might be able to undo the clamp and remove it fairly easily when it’s not under pressure.
I’m just saying it’s a lot to jump to that conclusions when the wreckage is barely even dry
Who mentioned anything about the window being destroyed.
<span style="text-align: right;">Evidence being destroyed doesn't mean the window need be destroyed. Just the act of removal could remove key clues. </span>
It’s possible it was removed afterward or ejected as artefact of the implosion, but both seem somewhat unlikely.
Why? There was an implosion - have none of you ever put a cap onto a Pringle container and stomped on it? Have you never seen what happened?
It seems perfectly obvious that at the moment of collapse the observation dome would pop out of its housing, as it’s the least solidly fixed item, although the entire event was over within a fraction of a second. The titanium domes would separate from the main carbon cylinder at almost the same time because that section would start to crumple causing the domes, which are a lot more rigid once the cylinder crumples, to break away. It’s also possible that the Perspex dome was the initial point of failure, in which case it likely shattered into a number of pieces.
Either way, even though I’m no engineer, I can see just how many ways the design fails add up. I’m old enough to remember Trieste, the first bathyscape to go down into the Marianas Trench, and the passengers were in a sphere slung underneath the main buoyancy body, and it was pointed out then that a sphere was the only safe shape for crew.
have none of you ever put a cap onto a Pringle container and stomped on it? Have you never seen what happened?
Surely when you stomp on a Pringles container, the pressure inside vastly exceeds the pressure outside. That is not what happened here.
Once you pop...
Once you pop…
🤷
Who mentioned anything about the window being destroyed.
I’m sorry you caught me off guard by using the word destroyed in relation to the window assembly.
If they have removed it I’m sure it’ll have been done in a way that won’t affect the outcome of the investigation. I would guess that if the window has gone in it won’t make much difference anyway as everyone knows it wasn’t rated to the depth. The lack of photos of a big carbon tube still makes me think it’s been the problem
I don't blame the geezer from profiteering from these people with more money than sense.
Obviously he's a dick, but there will always be people happy to take money from rich folks.
No one made these millionaires sign up. If they were smart enough they would have done their own risk assessment.
What pisses me off of the money spent on a pointless rescue mission whilst there are thousands of folk song each week/month in the Med trying to better themselves.
Back in April we were parked up at a beach in Spain. Quite remote in the edge of a national park. Several times we saw groups making at ashore. Had a group walk past is with this kid, maybe 8-10 yo asking in "Monsieur, de l'eau, s'il vous plaît. eau." his family behind him calling him back. He was wet up to the waist, freezing cold and had probably spent the last ten hours on a small boat to make it to Europe from Africa.
He was one of the lucky ones. **** these folk with thousands to spunk on some vanity cruise.
He was one of the lucky ones. **** these folk with thousands to spunk on some vanity cruise.
Off-topic but when it comes to a small kid in a boat what is the difference between people paying to take a sub to gaze at the Titanic and you spunking thousands to buy a van to travel around Spain?
Lots of reasons to object to the cost of search and recovery but the “they have more money than me so they must be evil” attitude that is the essence of the STW forum is getting tiring, not least because everyone is very quiet about e-bikes costing £12k+, or the ongoing craze of coughing up £60k on a VW tin tent.
What pisses me off of the money spent on a pointless rescue mission whilst there are thousands of folk song each week/month in the Med trying to better themselves.
seems no less pointless than picking some random dude off a rock in the atlantic cos he thought it would be fun to hang out there for a bit. At least the sub people weren't wasting resources in this country
Surely when you stomp on a Pringles container, the pressure inside vastly exceeds the pressure outside. That is not what happened here.
It might be that the window was only designed to hold massive inward pressure, not massive outward pressure. If the carbon collapsed, the inrushing water would have had a lot of momentum which would put a lot of outward pressure on the window mountings for a very short period of time. it could have blown out then.
The carbon hull is obviously completely mangled too, my money is on it collapsing
Re the window popping out. In my armchair opinion I am not convinced.
It looks like the titanium ends cleanly separated from the carbon fibre tub, so it looks like they were blown off the ends, or at least cleanly separated rather than bits of carbon fibre still glued in place.
So would there be enough force to blow out the window and separate the titanium ends. You would imagine one of those would take more force than the other so one would still be intact or show elements of fatigue separation rather than clean separation. Or did they just use cheap super glue to join it all together?
I know there are people on here who might actually know what they are talking about who will come along and know how the physics of the implosion would work
This vid is quite interesting to show the type of people who were attracted to the Titanic, and I think shows part of the culture of the Titanic community. It reminded me some what of a community of people involved with Donald Campbell and Lake Coniston. They were all a bit make it up as they went along, fallings out with each other, no agreements on the right way to do things, but an unreserved view that they were doing the right thing and had every right to do what they were doing.
In this vid the guy even collects surface ocean water to give to fellow Titanic enthusiasts. 🤷♂️
If you want a bit more insight into the whole thing (and let's face it who doesn't) then a chap from CBS went for a dive with them in summer 2022, and has now written a fascinating story about the whole affair.
what i dont get is this was at 9 bar, your looking like 400 where this occurred......
I can't imagine that they would knock the window out to make it easier to get a sling through it. It is evidence.
gobuchul
I would disagree in the case of the DNV GL stuff and their like, for high pressure systems, which this basically was.
Yep and DNV are the real deal... and totally appropriate to certain situations.
My point was around relying on certifications without knowing or understanding what goes into them (or limitations)
The other issue I see is applying a culture of safety outside of where it is appropriate.
Do I want a Seaking and pilot certified... onto a certified rig absolutely.
Should scheduled flights or ABTA level tour operators charters .. absolutely
but this gets ridiculous when this degree of rigour and control is applied to everyday things or adventure things by people obsessed by safety
Had I known someone rich enough to go on the Titan I'd have told them my opinion... ultimately being "I know very little about it I suggest you pay an independent expert" .. but ultimately as an adult they are and should be free to decide.
If the carbon collapsed, the inrushing water would have had a lot of momentum which would put a lot of outward pressure on the window mountings for a very short period of time. it could have blown out then.
Cheers - I had not considered this (for the record I am not an engineer 😀) and was only picturing what might happen in my head, and couldn’t see how there would be forces pushing the window outwards. However, I had a quick look on YouTube for high pressure implosions - and this is indeed what appears to happen in one of the experiments. [not like a Pringles tube though afaics].
Winston
The issue here is if the problem (assuming you believe there is a problem) is moved elsewhere ...
Obviously but we are not talking about water taxis in Bangladesh are we. Ocean gate is a US based company and was operating out of Canada. Clearly the point we are all making is that Stockton Rush would have needed more certification had he been sailing those paying guests in a 40ft yacht across the Atlantic rather than diving to the bottom of it which is crazy.
You don't need ANY certification to take a 40' yacht with a few fare paying passengers across the Atlantic if you set off from Liberia and land in the Cayman Islands for example.
I'm sure there is some paper work at both sides that can be bypassed by paying off officials and probably a few bribes if they cross national waters.
what I don't get is this was at 9 bar, your looking like 400 where this occurred……
That's the opposite reaction, that was rapid decompression.
There is talk of human remains being found. This is against what plenty of internet "commentators" stated was possible. Apparently the amount of energy released when it went from 1 bat to 400 bar in a millisecond would of destroyed anything inside.
I was surprised at how big the bits of debris were, I was expecting it to have basically disintegrated (aside from the metal end caps etc). There seems to be recognisable parts left, including control structures and the like.
My guess would be that the larger debris is from the outside of the pressure hull, skid rails, covers, thrusters etc.
It turns out NASA did do some work on submarine designs of this type back in the 90's. The reports are in the public domain. They tested to distruction a smaller design but simular to the Oceangate sub, the failure mode was a fibre buckeling on the inner surface of the centre of the CF tube. Given the images of the recovered parts it's not unreasionable to assume the same failure has happened here. Both Ti end rings were recovered without obvious damage, the largest single part should be the CF tube however all they unloaded from the ship was a 'bag' which I assume contains the recovered fragments of the carbon pressure tube.
I also found it interesting that the NASA study observed that there was more noise on the initial pressure cycle than later cycles. This suggestes that the 'real time acoustic monitoring' was probably ineffective at detecting fatigue damage. In my day job I distructively test fibre ropes and I see the same, samples make a noise initially when loaded, then settle down, then only make a noise again moments before failure.
The window is mostly held in by external pressure, it would surprise me if it stayed in place during such a violent event, the fact that it's not in the recovered dome doesn't mean it was the cause.
One horible detail that occures to me is that during implosion the air will have gone from 1 bar to around 350 bar in a fraction of a second. That means a significant temperature increase. When today's news says they may have 'human remains' I doubt it's anything like a recognisable body.
There is talk of human remains being found. This is against what plenty of internet “commentators” stated was possible. Apparently the amount of energy released when it went from 1 bat to 400 bar in a millisecond would of destroyed anything inside.
They may both be correct. 'Remains' in this case may refer to a thin veneer of human mince...
There seems to be recognisable parts left, including control structures and the like.
One of the promo videos shows it without its outer white casing on. At the back outside of the pressure capsule there was quite a framework containing a whole bunch of gear. Looks like it is that which has come up in mostly one piece.
My guess would be that the larger debris is from the outside of the pressure hull, skid rails, covers, thrusters etc
Yes, the pressure hull will have collapsed and anything inside it pulverized, but the stuff outside it should be reasonably intact.
Thanks, that makes more sense now.
There is talk of human remains being found
Every report I’ve see says “assumed” human remains. So whatever is left after making people soup - bits of bone and teeth?
Apparently the amount of energy released when it went from 1 bat to 400 bar in a millisecond would of destroyed anything inside.
According to Scott Manley (his 'Live' YouTube video "Under Pressure" is well worth a watch) the energy within 1 cubic meter of air is the equivalent of about 2Kg of TNT. There was approximately 5cuM of air in the capsule so when that was rapidly compressed* it would have been like having 10Kg of TNT set off in that tiny space.... in his words "raspberry jam"!
* Think of it like a diesel engine - as the air in the cylinder gets compressed it heats up until it goes bang! This is the same but on a larger scale.
the “they have more money than me so they must be evil” attitude that is the essence of the STW forum is getting tiring, not least because everyone is very quiet about e-bikes costing £12k+, or the ongoing craze of coughing up £60k on a VW tin tent.
Very much this unfortunately.
the energy within 1 cubic meter of air is the equivalent of about 2Kg of TNT.
At 3000 meters, a one square meter area has 3000 tonnes of water above it. If you have a 1 meter cube, you're talking about a force of about 30 000 000 Newtons over one meter when it collapses, so that's 30 MJ. One gram of TNT is about 4 kJ, so that's about 7.5 kg of TNT per cubic meter at that depth, if my maths is correct. If I've made a mistake in the calculation, happy to be corrected
* Think of it like a diesel engine – as the air in the cylinder gets compressed it heats up until it goes bang! This is the same but on a larger scale.
diesel engines max cylinder pressures are around 200bar these poor souls experienced about 400bar
edit add - sorry i dont know how to quote properly.
edit edit, i think i fixed it