[Closed] obesity, discuss.

Why the brain rewards the consumption of sugary/starchy foods, might perhaps be embedded in our evolutionary past ?

If you're poor and can't afford to buy an x-box it's not unreasonable that people overcompensate by providing stuff they *know* is good. You're likely to be thick too, so the consequences might escape you.

[i]Fat people get fat because they eat to much.
Solution, stop eating so much.
[/i]

I love what seems to be an inexhaustable supply of these types of posts.

😉

all the stuff about desire and certain foods / sugars making you fat is fiddling around the edges. you cannot get fat with an excess of calories in to calories out - its a simple as that.

I weighed myself and had a shock. I'd gained 2 stone.

What I don't get is that to me, this is entirely reasonable. You'd think, ok, I've gained two stone, time to start watching what I'm eating.

So how do some people end up weighing 25+ stone? Surely when you're half way there, you'd think, hmmmm, better cut down on the biscuits. Are some people just insanely weak willed? Or mind numbingly stupid? Or are a few chocolate biscuits worth obesity to some people?

I did read a year or so back that for the first time in history the rich are getting thinner and the poor fatter.

In my case when I am single I am thin, when I am attached I am less so, more food in, less time to go out and do stuff I think.

TJ.

I was offering the point of view that there can be a significant response by the brain to eating food that makes the subject heavy, and this then relatively quickly establishes a reward pattern in the brain for eating such foods.

This is similar to what happens in the brains of Class A users.

Therefore I'd consider this more than fiddling around the edges.

Is the best advice you could give a crack addict:
[i]just stop taking crack[/i] ?
Cos if it is, I'm not sure thats going to be very effective.
I think that the reward response from the brain is a significant hurdle to overcome.
However one may manage that.

🙂

all the stuff about desire and certain foods / sugars making you fat is fiddling around the edges. you cannot get fat with an excess of calories in to calories out - its a simple as that

That's like saying it's crashing that kills people not motorbikes. But by "fiddling around the edges" you could ride within the speed limit and wear a helmet. That would actually be quite useful.

So how do some people end up weighing 25+ stone? Surely when you're half way there, you'd think, hmmmm, better cut down on the biscuits. Are some people just insanely weak willed? Or mind numbingly stupid? Or are a few chocolate biscuits worth obesity to some people?

I think it's just general laziness and lack of willpower. I knew I was massive but didn't care enough to do anything about it at the time. Then realised I'd probably die soon if I didn't sort my life out.

[i]you'd think, hmmmm, better cut down on the biscuits[/i]

Yes, but when faced with the reward response system installed in our brains, some people just fail to get on top of the situation.

You see, they [i][b]like[/b][/i] choccy biscuits.

I started carb loading today. Just had 4 custard creams washed down with beetroot juice 😆

RealMan - Member
I weighed myself and had a shock. I'd gained 2 stone.
What I don't get is that to me, this is entirely reasonable. You'd think, ok, I've gained two stone, time to start watching what I'm eating.

So how do some people end up weighing 25+ stone? Surely when you're half way there, you'd think, hmmmm, better cut down on the biscuits. Are some people just insanely weak willed? Or mind numbingly stupid? Or are a few chocolate biscuits worth obesity to some people?

This is what I can't understand. My brain/experiences/expectations must be different or something, but if I put on weight it doesn't take too long before I start thinking...."hmmmm, better do something about this".
People who keep eating - are they unaware of how large they are getting, aware but unable to stop, aware but don't care?

I really don't understand how people can eat to a point that they literally have trouble living a normal life as their bulk becomes a burden. And when I say I don't understand, I literally do mean I cannot understand/imagine how it must be to not get to a certain point and say "whoa there sunshine, step away from the patisserie aisle...."

It is a very complicated issue.

The people I don't have much sympathy for are those who moan about how hard they are trying to lose weight but it's just not coming off, must be genetic, big bones, low metabolism etc. while they are chowing down on 3 days worth of calorie intake in one sitting.
I used to work with a girl who would admit to frequently eating a large bag of Dorito's and tub of creamy dip in an evening and would bring in salads with about half a block of cheese grated over the top, but then couldn't understand why she wasn't losing weight even though she was 'eating salad'........

[i]I used to work with a girl who would admit to frequently eating a large bag of Dorito's and tub of creamy dip in an evening and would bring in salads with about half a block of cheese grated over the top, but then couldn't understand why she wasn't losing weight even though she was 'eating salad'........ [/i]

I'd call that an education issue. She appears not to understand what is making her fat, combined with her [i]enjoyment[/i] of the foods that are making her heavy.

The problem:

And, in spite of my being intellignet and knowing that too much food (especially instant hit sugar- and fat-laden foods) makes one fat, two weeks ago I weighed myself and had a shock. I'd gained 2 stone.

Does this make me weak willed, or somehow less a less deserving member of society? Does it f---? What it tells me is that, over a period of around 12 months I have gradually accrued this excess weight. One stone overweight and the mind says (hmm, a bit heavy, but this is manageable). But, because the onset is gradual, it then became two stone with me barely noticing.

Because one mouthful of "bad" food doesn't instantly turn one into a biffer, realising the effect of a poor diet (and other factors) doesn't happen until a feeling of too late.

The solution:

Anyway, I've gone back to healthy eating and am now back on the bike.

I'd call that an education issue. She appears not to understand what is making her fat, combined with her enjoyment of the foods that are making her heavy.

I'm pretty sure she knew. I think it was more like a denial issue - as in, I won't count the bad things I eat.....

What I don't get is that to me, this is entirely reasonable. You'd think, ok, I've gained two stone, time to start watching what I'm eating.

So how do some people end up weighing 25+ stone? Surely when you're half way there, you'd think, hmmmm, better cut down on the biscuits. Are some people just insanely weak willed? Or mind numbingly stupid? Or are a few chocolate biscuits worth obesity to some people?

Because the connection isn't that obvious to them. Because the concept of a healthy diet is genuinely not in some people's knowledge. Because massive weight gain doesn't happen in an instant - it takes years. Because often these people have "always been fat", and so it's just a variation on a theme. Because there's often so much more to [i]why[/i] they choose to eat than just plain avarice.

Tell you what though, being heavy for most of my life has given me massive thigh muscles which is really handy for all the biking I do, and also in the gym for squats. I'm fast catching up with my mates who have been doing their workouts for almost a year, I've been on it about 2 months I think.

might as well add my voice to this!

"Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants" is quite a famous quote about healthy eating. Its something I try to live by on a day to day basis.

But I LOVE cakes, I LOVE chocolate, I LOVE biscuits, I LOVE white bread smothered in butter and Jam.

I really have to work very, very hard to resist eating this stuff all day every day, because I really easily could. I still, maybe once a week have a little splurge, but as I cycle close to 200 miles a week most weeks I figure it can't be doing me much harm. BTW i'm 36, 5'10 and about 12 stone, same weight I've been since 18.

I totally understand for some people it really isn't as simple as saying "you need more will power", but I imagine for a lot of the obese people in the world a bit of education, and a bit of will power would go a long, long way.

EDIT: when I say a little splurge, i think nothing of eating a family trifle in one go, or a tub of ben and jerrys, or 4 cream cakes

Tell you what though, being heavy for most of my life has given me massive thigh muscles which is really handy for all the biking I do, and also in the gym for squats. I'm fast catching up with my mates who have been doing their workouts for almost a year, I've been on it about 2 months I think.

but just imagine how much quicker you would be if you did less gym and more 'exercise' bulking up is only going to get you so far if the fat is still there. and as for 'bulky thighs' that's fine if you are a track sprinter but it's just extra weight you have to carry up hills and of little use if your cardio is not up to it.

I do more cardio than weights, I'm on the road bike for at least an hour a day. Since I started doing the weights though the fat loss seems to have sped up and my moobs are noticeably smaller 😆 Also since doing the squats my thighs don't really burn as much up climbs like they used to.

Modern lifestyles, poor worklife balance, stress etc all contribute to obesity
and never underestimate the amout of money that the food and drink industry throw at advertising -'im lovin it'- (or at lobbyiing the governement for that matter)
most people know that fatty food is bad but have know idea how much good fat, bad fat, carbs, sugar, salt etc etc are in foods,
the food industrying succesful lobbying to get the traffic lights labeling system ditched was a crime imho

I think the factor that many people seem to be missing is that in many cases over-eating/weight gain is closely related to stress/depression, and can become a vicious cycle. Some people are better at handling stress than others and people react in different ways.

Some on here seem to have an almost sociopathic lack of empathy towards others though.

Interesting article on SUGARS http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Sugar-Makes-You-Fat&id=205846

I wonder how many over eaters are locked into the cycle described in Para 7

FWIW - big difference between over eaters, eating disorders, kids who dont know better and are fed by their parents.

all the stuff about desire and certain foods / sugars making you fat is fiddling around the edges. you cannot get fat with an excess of calories in to calories out - its a simple as that

Pointless over-simplification.

Calories out is a huge variable and NOT simply dependent on how much exercise you do.

Tell you what though, being heavy for most of my life has given me massive thigh muscles

Possibly.. but I suspect that it's a genetic tendency to eat a lot and for your body to use that food and gain weight, which would either be muscle or fat depending. Most congenitally skinny people are also not very muscly, and most muscly people get fat easily, it would seem.

Well, I lived in a poor part of Spain for 6 months, and the only fat people I saw were Brits on holiday.

Poor people in this country aren't poor.

What a load of bollox. Poor people in Spain are likely to have healthier diets because of firstly cultural differences, and secondly, availability of produce.

I have personally known French peasant farmers who lived a more or less subsistence existence, who's diet consisted of basically fresh vegetable and fruit, and very rarely meat, other than perhaps occasionally chicken. Most of their protein came from cheese. Red wine was also vital to their diet, with only small quantities of beer. Had they been transported to an inner British city, their diet would have been totally different.

Obesity is both a cultural and class issue. And one of the reasons why France is world renowned for its culinary delights, which even the poor in French society appreciate, is because of the French Revolution. The French Revolution amongst other things, was very much about "food", and after the revolution there was a commitment to ensure that good food was not the exclusive preserve of a privileged few - something which has had a knock-on effect throughout the generations.

For debate:
Is there a generation thing going on here?
Sweets and 'bad' foods are more readily available now then, say 50 years ago. I don't want to look like an old git (even if I am) but when I was young, say 2-16, sweets at home were rare and very much a treat. Maybe this got ingrained into me, such that now I still don't eat many sweets, and when I do, I feel guilty.
I'm sure there are many reasons for weight gain, maybe this is just a small one.

the stress and over eating is not completely true, many stressed people have high metabolic rates and are skinny, some have undercative thyroids which adds to the stress/depression and causes fewer calories to be burnt per unit time, also making them more lethargic. Plenty of studies have shown that sedentary animals consume more calories than active ones, the boredom factor creeping in.
There are no diseases that cause or contribute to obesity ( if there were the bug seems to have missed out on large parts of the worls where malnutrition is a way of life as is being too thin), however systemic steroid use will cause patient to put weight on ( not a very common problem).
Our brains are designed to seek out fats in food as this helped us survive in caveman times, hence the craving and satisfaction of fatty foods.
Lower socio economic groups with less income will buy , generally, cheaper processed foods with higher fat content which is a reversal of Victorian and earlier times ( when oysters were peasant food).
Simple fact is that fat people eat too much, society loves to label things in a more pc friendly way, my kids aren't misbehaved, they have adhs, or I'm not lazy, I have me etc..... waits for the abuse to follow

Giving kids high calorie stuff is a hard wired instinct.

Wanting high calorie stuff is a hard wired instinct.

Utter nonsense.

Me and my wife don't find ourselves forcing high-calorie stuff on our son.

And our son downright refuses to eat cake, sweets & biscuits, and one of his favourite foods is brocolli.

And our son downright refuses to eat cake, sweets & biscuits, and one of his favourite foods is brocolli.

So one UNUSUAL kid is evidence that the entire theory is rubbish?

Not a scientist are we?

when I was young, say 2-16, sweets at home were rare and very much a treat. Maybe this got ingrained into me, such that now I still don't eat many sweets

We NEVER had sweet treats in our house when I was a kid. I am a sugar junkie.

Andalucia currently has a big obesity problem, particularly in children. Diabeties in children is also increasing.

Why? Consumption of sugary bakery products, sugary snacks and processed meals.

And our son downright refuses to eat cake, sweets & biscuits, and one of his favourite foods is brocolli.

So one UNUSUAL kid is evidence that the entire theory is rubbish?

Not a scientist are we?

I might be.

If it really [i]was[/i] a "hard-wired instinct", then there wouldn't be any exceptions.

If there are numerous exceptions then I'd argue it's a tendency, not an instinctive response.

Saudi is particularly bad for it too. Sugary carbonated drinks and sweets. Adult Diabetes is endemic

Anyway.... enough of this nonsense. Its all making me hungry. I'm popping out for some lunch. Pie Barm and chips anyone....?

[img] [/img]

Andalucia currently has a big obesity problem, particularly in children. Diabeties in children is also increasing.

Why? Consumption of sugary bakery products, sugary snacks and processed meals.

IIRC similar issues in southern Italy, which can be much poorer than the north. Made worse by vending machines being installed in schools and a cultural sneering at fruit being the food of the poor (due to its abundancy).

We NEVER had sweet treats in our house when I was a kid. I am a sugar junkie.

Me too. I guess two of us qualifies as a rule, huh? 😉

If it really was a "hard-wired instinct", then there wouldn't be any exceptions.

A hard wired instinct in 90% of people?
A hard wired positive feedback mechanism?

[img] [/img]

You need some veg mate.

Splash of tomato ketchup should do it.

Me too. I guess two of us qualifies as a rule, huh?

Me three. Guess that makes it a law now.

It is not just a pointless oversimplification - it is the cornerstone to understanding - you can only get fat if you have an excess of calories in compared to calories out. basic simple fact.

There are many theories about what foods encourage weight gain - see http://giveupsugar.com/ for one that seems fairly convincing to me but other reputable sources would focus on fats or carbs.

However regardless of what you eat you can only get fat with a calorie surplus. You can live on pure sugar for a long time but you will not gain weight without a calorie surplus

The actions of the food industry should be under scrutiny as well - but a lot of that is consumer led. Take two breakfast cereal manufacturers - one adds sugar to their product and sales go up - the other has to follow suit.

There are a lot of hidden calories in what we eat and drink as well - soft drinks and fruit juice are two of the worst for this. There is no doubt that we have a higher calorie intake than our parents and grandparents. Reasons for this are complex but far too often people look for complexity where none exists in order to make excuses.

Me - I am maybe 10 kg overweight. I know the answer. Stop drinking real ale and cut out the sweets and fatty snacks. Yes it is that simple.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion on this thread - and a lot of surety were in fact only doubt and theory exists.

Look at the NHS advice on weight loss and healthy eating - that is the medical consensus as exists now. Look ate reputable nutritional theories such as iDaves or the website above and decide how much you think applies.

I agree with TJ.

You shouldn't really overcomplicate this.

Where most of the debate seems to sit is with who is to blame, which if we are honest is very simple too:

Fat kids - parents to blame

Fat Adults - you're to blame, there is only one person who is responsible for what you eat, how much you eat and how much you exercise. YOU!

pahh, you're all looking at it far to complicated.

it's the weight of the food you need to worry about.

that's why i only eat candy-floss, it weighs virtually nothing so its practically impossible to gain any weight.

[i]Me - I am maybe 10 kg overweight. I know the answer. Stop drinking real ale and cut out the sweets and fatty snacks. Yes it is that simple. [/i]

So whats happening there then ?.

You [i][b]like[/b][/i] Ale, sweets and fatty snacks.....

Where from, or how is our sense of preference being generated ?.

I'd say it's not just "badly-trained" physical cravings though. Many overweight people are ironically also malnourished.
Eating low quality refined carbs leads not only to excess calories, but can create gross under-intake of many micro nutrients (minerals, vitamins, essential fats.. the list goes on).

The body may not crave only calories but also nutrition. Hence a fat and malnourished individual will continue to crave food and the underlying tendency for those individuals is to be attracted continually to the malnourishing refined carbohydrates which got them into that mess in the first place.

It is not just a pointless oversimplification

Yes it is. For instance for me eating less carbs makes it much easier to lose weight, as you refer to in the next paragraph. If your first paragraph was true there would have been no point posting the rest.

Where from, or how is our sense of preference being generated ?

eerm, taste buds?

For instance for me eating less carbs makes it much easier to lose weight, as you refer to in the next paragraph.

Surely eliminating, or reducing a food group, will have the inadvertent effect of reducing your overall calorie consumption? Which will then lead to weight loss.

There are no diseases that cause or contribute to obesity

Not entirely true.

Perhaps not diseases, but there [i]are[/i] a number of conditions where the feedback that says "You're full" doesn't work and plenty of medication that has the side effect of making people ravenously hungry.

These may not be to blame for the obesity epidemic - but they do exist.

Phil.W

I'm sure you're keeping up with the all posts.
😉

The purpose of mine was to outline to TJ that the core of his stategy for losing 10Kg, that being to remove from his diet, the very things his brain is rewarding him for consuming.

Is, perhaps, just a bit more than fiddling around the edges ?.

Otherwise it would have happened by now. It doesn't though becasue that reward process is very powerful.
😉

I think a lot of people mistake dehydration for hunger too.

Given what I observe at work the only fluid intake some have is cups of tea and what the Scots call "juice" which generally means a sugary drink.

Need to educate folk to drink water, if anything.