[Closed] obesity, discuss.

Of course it's the active person. Imagine a car that was never serviced and alternately thrashed, left to stand and dunked in salt water, but had a nice looking paintjob.....

Lots of fat around your internal organs is bad for you, granted, but lots of other things are much worse for you and don't make everyone fat.

Heroin addicts are pretty skinny, d'you think they are healthy?

in that I'd expect a higher than usual proportion of obese people are obese because they eat too much of the wrong types of calorific foods, and don't take enough exercise, and is that the main contributory factor then to these types of diseases as opposed to purely having a BMI over a certain number

That's about right I reckon.

Although the actual fat itself can be harmful in some cases I believe.

obesity might be a disease.

Correct. It's caused by an over-acive eating gland

My GP once told me that it's better to be fat and fit than thin and unfit. Obesity is a very complex
issue that cannot be discussed effectively on here. I got to 18 st 3 lbs (I'm 5' 9") before
I realised something was wrong. Others get to be a lot heavier. Fortunately, I
could do something about it. When you become a head on a sea of naked fat filled flesh then it's too late.

Might we take a step back and consider our biological feeding mechanism ?.

Isn't there a bit of a conflict going on when our brains produce a reward response for eating certain foods which result in the body becoming overweight ?.

People who are eating lots of the [i]wrong[/i] foods are suffering with a situtation where their brains are rewarding them for eating such food.
This is the same reaction as that which has been observed in the people who take drugs at the expense of them completely destroying themselves. They repeat their behaviour because it [i]feels good[/i], ie, their brains are rewarding them for their behaviour.

This leads me to looking at the food manufacturers. Perhaps they, better than most people, know that in order to [i]own[/i] their customers, they need only add salt and sugar....and the brain will do the rest.

I think that before you try to fix the machine, its better to understand how that machine works, and in the case of obesity, one should perhaps consider looking at what is going on in the brain.

Regardless of the nutritional value of sand. If we got a [i]hit[/i] from eating it, we'd be tucking in as if there would be no tomorrow.

Or have I just stated the obvious ?
😕

Hit the nail on the head Solo.

But you can't blame manufacturers for making things that we buy. You can however blame them for putting hidden bad stuff in their food like HFCC.

Molgrips.

Yes, good point, I had overlooked to mention the influence of the [i]Market[/i] and how it produces the results of peoples choice.

But I would bring us round to the situation that people [i]are[/i] exercising a choice, based on what they [i]like[/i].

It is indeed a very circular, and complex situation.
Giving rise to a set of circumstances where people eating what they like, doesn't always let see the body they'd like to have.
🙂

People who are eating lots of the wrong foods are suffering with a situtation where their [b]brains are rewarding them for eating such food.[/b]

We all get that, I'd love to pig out on KitKats, Flakes, curry, beer and fry-ups everyday, but I know what will happen. Everyone knows what will happen these days, but some people don't have the will power to stop. Moderation and balance is what's needed, it's not rocket science to see if you've got the balance wrong.

It's a very complicated issue. Many of us indulge ourselves one way or another - however some indulgences are not as visibly destructive. Plus, a lot of people can eat plenty of food and not get fat. If you've never had to really work on losing weight then you are a) lucky and b) don't know how hard it can be.

Many of us indulge ourselves one way or another -

Take Yeti for instance. He's an exercise addict - fortunately, that doesn't have so many immediate disadvantages 🙂

Two of these activities are socially acceptable, the fat ones are, I guess, the easiest targets.

I'd dispute that really. Smokers, on this very forum, are viewed in the same light as kiddy fiddlers

I'm with Solo. I'd say it's almost impossible to become obese eating a unrefined diet. If you believe you fit the latter already, and still put some weight on, then go the whole way and eat 100% raw.

It's not my thing personally (I have dabbled and it's a fine idea), but plenty swear by it. Given every single other animal (and us) has evolved for millions of years doing just that, then there's your answer. Show me a fat (and wild fed) wild animal.

The food/reward response is partly inate, but is also partly learned. Once you know and feel deeply that eating bad food screws you up, then even (say) a small sugary biscuit makes one feel physically unwell.
I have watched this closely while "educating" the palatte of my little girl (now 8). She wouldn't over eat on crap nowadays, even given an open cake shop. But aged 3, she would have done, and that would have set her on a path for life.

If calories in are more than calories burnt you will become fat, fact.

My personal view, calories are an odd concept, en extream thought experiment would be filling your car with wood chips to the same calorific value as a tank of petrol, same calorie in, but it's a whole lot less productive than filling it with petrol.

Diet coke has almost zero calories, yet the aspartamine has the same effect on insulin as sugar, insulin moves sugar into muscle cells and liver and fat into fat cells (the bodys way of saying I've too much energy, store some of it).

So diet coke, the no calories in option, you drink a can, run for 20 minutes, and all you've achieved is tearing some muscle fibre, burnt protein as fuel and stored fat.

Can of coke on the the other hand gave you the sugar to burn off on the run, your muscles weren't scavanged for fuel, you've stored no more fat than the regular coke and the increaced/maintained muscle mass will help you burn that off.

Gross oversimplification, but less so than "chanting calories in<calories out" at fatties.

Dobbo.

I know what you mean, however, research has observed some quite strong reward responses in the brains of the subjects being observed, when they eat the types of food you refer to in your post.
The reward response is so strong, the subjects find resistance or abstinence, very, very difficult.

I would also echo Molgrips remarks.

The now Ex-Mrs Solo could eat for England and never put any weight on, she was a size 6-8 at around 5' 7" tall.
She just couldn't undersrtand what all the fuss was about.

For those who have received the [i]gift[/i] of slender physique combined with the ability to eat pretty much anything.
Issues related to easy and excessive weight gain, are totally alien.
IME.

Don Simon.
I'm not [i]picking[/i] on [i]fatties[/i], I'm saying that they are perhaps burdened with an easily triggered / low threshold response to [i]naughty[/i] food.
I feel this needs to be recognized and catered for in any stratergy to get people onto [i]better[/i] diets / control their weight.

😉

MountainCarrot.

Good for you, I hope your children benefit from their parents taking a balanced interest in what their children are eating.

From a different approach, I think Jamie Oliver was / is trying to achieve the same thing.
Educating the young and heading off the obesity issue [i]at the pass[/i]
You might not like his style, but I think his focus on anti childhood obesity is a worthy cause, imo.

When the famine comes they fatties will have the last laugh.

Assuming I don't eat them.

I think Jamie Oliver was / is trying to achieve the same thing.
Educating the young and heading off the obesity issue at the pass

[i]When the famine comes they fatties will have the last laugh.

I assuming I don't eat them.
[/i]

There'll be a high fat content to them....

It's a self-preservation strategy: fat people are harder to kidnap.

Show me a fat (and wild fed) wild animal

That's pretty silly, since many animals have to work all the time to fend off starvation.

Plenty of fat cats and dogs who're fed on nothing but meat as they would be in the wild.

However your point is valid overall - sugary and starchy foods cause mayhem when over-consumed, and our brains come pre-configured to want them. Breaking that habit is hard.

We all get that, I'd love to pig out on KitKats, Flakes, curry, beer and fry-ups everyday, but I know what will happen. Everyone knows what will happen these days, but some people don't have the will power to stop. Moderation and balance is what's needed, it's not rocket science to see if you've got the balance wrong.

Would you say the same thing to an alcoholic?

We all like a drink but we know what will happen if we drink too much...

Having been at both ends of the obese/anorexic spectrum, and now safely in the middle, I subscribe to a theory of nurture over nature on this one.

You get taught your eating habits. It's not hereditary, you learn from your primary care-giver.

Without getting all Freudian some folk are just trapped in the oral stage, all mixed in with reward and punishment "be a good girl and you can have a biscuit".

And yes, there is much better availability of unhealthy food than there used to be, historically. Even poor people can eat sugar and fat now.

I think this issue should go the way of drunk driving, that used to be socially acceptable and now it isn't. There should be some kind of social non-acceptance of obesity. It is costing us all in terms of premature deaths and health care.

All IMVHO, of course.

[i]We all like a drink but we know what will happen if we drink too much...
[/i]

Yeah, I fall asleep.
😳

Brief case history:
Bloke turns 40 and looks in the mirror/at the scales.
6'3" shouldn't weigh 16 stone!
Feels lethargic and has raised BP.
Buys bike & starts eating better.
Turns 41 weighing about 13 stone.
Not dificult. Like most things, you just need to wake up and smell the coffee, then summon the will to do something about it.

Have let things slip a bit though over the past year or two 😳 13.5 stone at the moment and not at the front of the pack on big climbs. This disappoints me so I'm going to do something about it now.

My question is, what is that signal that the afflicted people are ignoring and why do they ignore it?

Not dificult.

Not for you, no. Enjoy feeling smug 🙂

13.5 stone at the moment and not at the front of the pack on big climbs. This disappoints me

See - this is your personality talking. You want to be good at biking - many people just don't care where they are on the climbs and would rather not be on them at all. Sport just isn't for everyone.

My question is, what is that signal that the afflicted people are ignoring and why do they ignore it?

It's called denial.

We all like a drink but we know what will happen if we drink too much...

Which is why I drink beer in preference to vodka. Even if I do drink too much beer it's not a big deal. Unlike vodka...

Same with eating. If you know eating crap will mess you up (or know what crap is) you can eat as much good food as you like and it's not a problem. Eat crap and all kinds of switches get disabled and everything goes tits up.

Of course some people have no self control. I guess that could be classified as a mental illness if you must. But I don't think being self-destructive is anything other than normal.

more pi lates than pilates = biffer

[i]My question is, what is that signal that the afflicted people are ignoring and why do they ignore it?[/i]

A fair dose of endorphins being released by your brain when you eat your deep fried Mars bar, etc.

Those endorphins can really work wonders on your ability to deny what you're really doing to yourself.

😉

As somebody who was severely overweight about 3 years ago (22+ stone at 5'9") it's hard for me to have an opinion on whether it's a disease or not - I no longer have the same food cravings/addiction and the whole "eat til you feel sick" thing I used to do. I suppose maybe just losing weight, feeling good about yourself and exercising could have "cured" any disease or mental problems that may have existed?

Not smug Molgrips, not satisfied so can't be smug (yet).
Smugness is reserved for those who are where they want to be IMHO.
I think it's about harnessing determination. Yes I guess that's a personality trait.

you can eat as much good food as you like and it's not a problem

This is interesting. I've got a friend who's trying to 'diet' and 'eat good food' but she's not doing a very good job. There's so much misinformation and marketing crap around that many people have absolutely no idea what they really need to be eating, so keep getting it wrong.

Then they say 'well I tried eating well but it didn't work' and give up, because they lack the understanding to do a proper job. Which is reasonable, because it CAN be pretty complicated in reality.

I think it's about harnessing determination. Yes I guess that's a personality trait

Yar.

I suppose maybe just losing weight, feeling good about yourself and exercising could have "cured" any disease or mental problems that may have existed?

Sounds reasonable. A feeling of achievement and success could boost self esteem and make you think you are actually capable. So temptation becomes ineffective against the stronghold of your self confidence.

My GP once told me that it's better to be fat and fit than thin and unfit.

I'd love to know how your GP defines fit for this case.

Would you say the same thing to an alcoholic?

It could easily be changed to:

I'd love to binge out on Guinness, larger wine everyday, but I know what will happen. Everyone knows what will happen these days, but some people don't have the will power to stop. Moderation and balance is what's needed, it's not rocket science to see if you've got the balance wrong.

The only thing I would add is that hangovers also are a good prevention (to non alcoholics) to doing it too regularly.

Overeating and alcoholism are probably related somewhere down the line.

Hi Hels.

[i]"be a good girl and you can have a biscuit".[/i]

Couldn't agree more on that one. IMO that sort of stuff actually amounts to child abuse.

Not that I visit supermarkets much, but doing so in some places is a sad experience, observing small children who really just don't understand this stuff being fed and rewarded on crap, frequently already suffering the effects and being set up for a lifetime.

A friend of mine is a Dentist in a poor area in the central belt of Scotland. She often has to remove childrens baby teeth, they are so rotted from sugar. Then sees the kid being given a sweetie and a can of Irn Bru for being good. I know it's easy to blame the parents... but...

No arguments that some parents behave terribly. Doesn't mean that's always the issue though as I am sure you will appreciate.

Hi Hels.

"be a good girl and you can have a biscuit".

Couldn't agree more on that one. IMO that sort of stuff actually amounts to child abuse.

Not that I visit supermarkets much, but doing so in some places is a sad experience, observing small children who really just don't understand this stuff being fed and rewarded on crap, frequently already suffering the effects and being set up for a lifetime.

Giving kids high calorie stuff is a hard wired instinct.

Wanting high calorie stuff is a hard wired instinct.

Well, I lived in a poor part of Spain for 6 months, and the only fat people I saw were Brits on holiday.

I remember being at the town fair in Puerta Mazzaron, we were the only Brits, and there was ONE fat kid out of 100s, the whole town was there, which made me notice that all the kids were normal sized.

Hard wired ? Sorry, but my arse..

Well, I lived in a poor part of Spain for 6 months, and the only fat people I saw were Brits on holiday.

I remember being at the town fair in Puerta Mazzaron, we were the only Brits, and there was ONE fat kid out of 100s, the whole town was there, which made me notice that all the kids were normal sized.

Hard wired ? Sorry, but my arse..

I think the poor bit is the key. If they could afford to buy loads of high calorie food they would.

In a lot of poor cultures the rich elite can be easily spotted. They're the fat ones.

Poor people in this country aren't poor.

Overeating and alcoholism are probably related somewhere down the line.

Which was my point. It is easy to dismiss the wobblers as "lazy fatties", but people are far more ready to accept that alcoholism is a "proper" medical/mental issue.

IMO that sort of stuff actually amounts to child abuse.

Really? Do me a favour! 🙄

Turning your kid into a porker before they are 3 is certainly neglectful. But offering a reward (sweet or otherwise) for being good is simply "parenting".

Did your mum never tell you that you couldn't have any pudding unless you ate your sprouts?

Hard wired ? Sorry, but my arse

It is hard wired. The issue is that exposure to it makes it worse, and what foods are traditionally eaten or widely available varies from country to country.

Finns used to have dreadful health problems because their traditional diet was very ill-suited to the modern age.

Hard wired ? Sorry, but my arse..

why do you think cake tastes good and broccoli less so.

I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as [i]hard wired[/i].

But the brain will recognize and reward certain behaviours, creating a pattern / habits.

Why the brain rewards the consumption of sugary/starchy foods, might perhaps be embedded in our evolutionary past ?.

I'm an intelligent person. I love exercise, and have enjoyed playing sport at a decent level. I have had a body fat percentage in the single digits and been as fit as the proverbial butcher's dog.

I am now fat. I didn't decide "you know what, I'll wake up fat tomorrow". Instead, it crept up on me over a period of time when my focus was elsewhere. The contributing factors have been:

- Sweet tooth - self-learned/innate - not got from my parents (chocolate biscuits are like crack cocaine)
- Stress - I comfort eat (see what Solo said about the endorphin reward)
- Anti-depressants - last year/early this year (the permanent craving for sugar was unreal)
- Fatherhood - erratic sleeping and less time to exercise means my diet was one thing to suffer
- Sedentary work - I sit at a desk all day, with a short break at lunchtime
- Illness - 3 months of ear infection, chest infection, gastric flu, full on flu, chest infection had me off the bike and doing nothing

And, in spite of my being intellignet and knowing that too much food (especially instant hit sugar- and fat-laden foods) makes one fat, two weeks ago I weighed myself and had a shock. I'd gained 2 stone.

Does this make me weak willed, or somehow less a less deserving member of society? Does it f---? What it tells me is that, over a period of around 12 months I have gradually accrued this excess weight. One stone overweight and the mind says (hmm, a bit heavy, but this is manageable). But, because the onset is gradual, it then became two stone with me barely noticing.

Because one mouthful of "bad" food doesn't instantly turn one into a biffer, realising the effect of a poor diet (and other factors) doesn't happen until a feeling of too late.

Anyway, I've gone back to healthy eating and am now back on the bike.

Fat people get fat because they eat to much.
Solution, stop eating so much.