[Closed] Not putting the clocks back. Is this a good idea ?

Isn't this the last time we put the clocks back? I heard that for the next 3 years we are going to trial not putting the clocks forward and back, or am I imagining it (could well be!)?

Wouldnt have thought it would make much difference as the dayslight hours are much reduced anyway. It'll still be dark when you're at home.

It wouldn't get light until 10ish in Northern Scotland and in December and January it would still be getting dark by hometime. I remember coming home in the dark at 4pm from school if it was a particularly gloomy day. Interestingly there was a Professor of something or other on Radio Scotland this morning advocating the change for Scotland for the health benefits that could arise from it. Basically he thought that the benefits would outweigh the cons of it staying dark till 10am.

Would Scotland having it's own time zone be that radical if England and Wales changed?

I'm looking forward to the clocks going back and not going to work in the dark for a bit.

In a couple of weeks time, even if we stayed on BST it will still be dark on the way to work and dark when you leave, so what difference does it really make?

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/daylight-saving-time-clocks-going-backforwards

I really don't see the arguement for not putting the clocks back.

Ok, so supposedly everyone will be "happier" in the evenings as it's lighter for longer. I don't know about anyone else but I'm a grumpy bugger in the morning when I have to drive to work in the dark - I hate getting up in the dark and can't wait for the clocks to go back. Will it really make a difference if school finishes at dusk rather than dark? As for journeys home - surely the majority will still be in the dark/dusk, plus morning rush hour will be in darkness so swings and roundabouts?

It's been tried before and wasn't popular so why keep banging on about it.

So there!

edit MTG - ok, nice link. That shows that this is an arguement that crops up every year.

I think its a pretty stupid idea. I think the little bit of extra light we get in the mornings by setting the clocks back one hour is actually quite important for road safety.

From a personal standpoint I don't think the argument that people will exercise more if the evenings are slightly lighter during the winter is a convincing one. People generally excercise outdoor less in the winter because its cold and the weather is bad.

The fact that some parts of Scotland won't get light until 10am will also cause all sorts of long term problems. Just look at the incidence of depression and other mental health problems in some of the Scandinavian countries that have to endure extended periods of darkness in the Winter.

The only enduring solution is to have longer working hours in the summer and shorter in the winter, whereas I'd prefer the opposite.

It would be a stupid idea

I remember living in Glasgow when the hour was not put back. Dark till 10 am or so even that far south. It was horrible and would cause all sorts of issues up here.

A classic londoncentric view

setting the clocks back one hour is actually quite important for road safety.

It's been proven otherwise,

In the morning kids walk to school, everyone drives/walks/rides to work etc.

In the evening everyones busy going shopping, socializing, going to the gym, etc etc.

So yes the morning journey might be slightly more troublesome, but its usualy a simpler journey. And the extra light on the more complicated journeys was found to have an overall +ve impact on road safety.

Every year this topic arises at this time of the year, not just on STW but on the news channels and breakfast TV etc. The same positives get banded about as do the same ol' negatives but 2 days after the change, everyone's got used to it and moved on! 🙂

Lots of countries manage just fine with more than one time zone.

I don't think I'm in favour of the idea though.

And I dunno about reducing emissions - you'd need your lights on in the morning for longer, no?

It's dark when you get up in the morning and come home from work anyhow so I don't see any argument one way or the other form that point of view.

At least on days off there would be a little more light at the end of the day rather than while you're eating breakfast where the light is wasted.

time is percieved.

next two weeks im working longer hours deliberately so i commute both ways in the dark. By the middle of november i will be used to living in the dark and it wont bother me

As spoon said,it will make no difference to road safety. You can either have small children going to school in the dark or coming home in the dark, and there are more other journeys in the evening.
Anyone here old enough to remember when they tried it back in the sixties? Did it work?

Sod it, I'm going to spend 6 months here and 6 months in NZ every year from now on.

A classic londoncentric view

You could have Scotland on a different timezone 😉

andrewh - Member

As spoon said,it will make no difference to road safety. You can either have small children going to school in the dark or coming home in the dark, and there are more other journeys in the evening.
Anyone here old enough to remember when they tried it back in the sixties? Did it work?

It was the 70s and yes I remember. In Glasgow it meant going to school in the dark but it was still dark when you came home

it was unpleasant to say the least. For Scotland it would be stupid to do. The further north and wet you are the worse the effect.

AlexSimon, earlier:

[img] [/img]

1968 according to [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11643098 ]BBC Scotland[/url]. The experiment didn't go down well apparently.

Yeah, spending 6 months here in summer and migrating south for the winter would be my dream. One day it will be a reality.

Ah - it lasted until 1971 I knew I had been in Glasgow at school and we did not move to glasgow until 1970

For Reference:

By Winter Solstice (December 21st) sunrise in Aberdeen is 8:46am and sunset 3:27pm, meantime in London it will be 8:04am till 3:53pm

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunrise.html

Ahh - beautiful image molgrips. That's me. Although the 6-monthly carbon footprint would be a bit bigger. Maybe I'll cycle.

TBH who cares about Scotland, they're all pretty grumpy up there anyway, and no ****er lives there. Change the clocks.

djglover - Member

The only enduring solution is to have longer working hours in the summer and shorter in the winter, whereas I'd prefer the opposite.

In Spain we work longer in the winter when you don't really want to be outside, then work less in the summer so you can spend more time next to the pool.

if it was a really good idea then it would have actually happened rather than being talked about for a week or so prior to the clocks changing and then being forgotten about until the same time next year.

Should be BST in winter and BST+1 in summer...
...also a shorter period of month for the winter.

I travelled to school when the original experiment was done and it was fine and great having some light in the late p.m. (Manchester).

As for Scotland, the length of day (a.k.a. gloom) is so short that it surely makes no difference wether this is an hour later/earlier.

🙂

Can we not mine under the country (perhaps employ the Chilean chaps) get some big F-off tugs and move the country south, thus solving this problem, improving the climate, Europe would have shot of us and we could control immigration better!!

Interviewed a Scottish farmer on Radio 4 this week about this. He as up for the change (didn't actually care) as he didn't own a watch and went to work when he woke up and finished when it got dark 😆

Might give the dour ****ers something new to whinge about. I thought they'd love the opportunity in Scotland.

Yeah, that's why I was surprised to hear this chap NOT have a pop 🙂

The other way is to start earlier. School/work starts art 8.00 am and finishes an hour earlier. Same effect. Before we forget just remember the Northern Irish - they are to the West of the UK mainland and as such they too will be affected. The point about countries have multiple time zones is that they change as you go east/west no north/south

I used to do shift work, 8am - 8.30pm and the GMT/BST change never bothered me at all cos I needed lights at least one way of the journey for about 8.5 months of the year anyway!

This topic comes up every single year yet within a couple of days everyone has got used to it and just gets on with life. If anything, the most dangerous time on the roads is actually early October as it's dark in the mornings, getting cold etc and everyone is driving round with no lights on and frosted/misted windows.

You could have Scotland on a different timezone

Aren't they already on GMT minus 30 years ?

It only makes any difference for a week or so then it's dark all the time anyway.

I find the key to it is to get out jogging for half an hour in you lunch break through the winter just to make sure you see some daylight regularly.

3 or 4 times a week ought to do it. Quit moaning

It was the 70s and yes I remember. In Glasgow it meant going to school in the dark but it was still dark when you came home

it was unpleasant to say the least. For Scotland it would be stupid to do. The further north and wet you are the worse the effect.

I dont get it. I don't see how it makes any difference. It's normally dark when I go to work and dark when I get out anyway, so how would shifting the hours a bit make any odds? And the short winter days in Scotland are beautifully offset by the stunningly long summer days. This summer on a few occasions I was still walking around outside, taking photos, unaided by electrickery, at nearly 1am.

Do what you like with the clocks, makes no odds to any sane human. In fact I'd say the shifting confuses peoples bodies/minds more than keeping it the same.

Here we go again 🙄

You could have Scotland on a different timezone

Aren't they already on GMT minus 30 years ?

post of the year - outstanding 😆

I would rather have lighter mornings, since it will be dark afer work either way.

i think it's a great idea.

it won't make any difference in midwinter - it'll still be dark all the time anyway.

it [i]would[/i] have made a difference to the last month - the one we just had (October).

i get home earlier than most, and i didn't quite have time to go out for run/walk/ride/climb - it got dark too early.

it [i]will[/i] make a difference in spring - remember how happy you were when the clocks went forward in March? - well this will give you that happy feeling about a month earlier.

it will make a difference to the transition seasons Autumn and Spring, it won't make much difference to Mid winter - dark till 10 in Scotland? - that's the price you pay for having 20 hours of daylight in summer, and that will only be around midwinter, and in return for that inconvenience you'll get 2 extra months a year when you can do something outside after work.

it won't really make any difference from here on in till Spring, but it would have made a nice improvement to October, and it will make a nice improvement to March.

I got woken up at 6 this morning by the dawn light creeping in around my blackout blind - it makes sense to me to 'move' an hour of light to the evening...

If these people are right who say it won't improve road safety, then why are Rospa capaigning for an end to putting the clocks back?

[url] http://www.rospa.com/faqs/detail.aspx?faq=297 [/url]

and there has been a recent article in the BMJ supporting the health claims

[url] http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Clocks-Go-Back-As-Health-Expert-Urges-More-Daylight-Time-For-Well-Being-Of-Country-In-BMJ-Article/Article/201010415781912?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15781912_Clocks_Go_Back_As_Health_Expert_Urges_More_Daylight_Time_For_Well-Being_Of_Country%2C_In_BMJ_Article [/url]

and finally, a recent survey suggests only 35% of Scots support putting the clocks back (53% against it, 12% didn't know)

[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11655662 [/url]

So members of the UK population are being needlessly killed, injured and generally less healthy to keep 35% of people in Scotland happy, give them their own time zone.

I'm fully behind the double british summertime idea.

And one more time.....

double british summertime

...ahh, I can feel the sun already 8)

Never really though about it as an "annual debate", but as someone said, why hasn't it happened already ? I think the two posts above have made very valid points, and interesting to see that it's only really being kept in place to please the minority in Scotland.

I certainly think it would be a great idea to have another trial period to see whether it would work again in the 21st Century. Working (and living) practices are very different to what they were in 1968, and I think it would be interesting to see how the country would cope with it now. Anyone fancy starting a petition ?

Right, I'm off to the shed to go and clear all the road carp out of the BB on the commuter... blummin winter grumblegrumble..

there is a petition of sorts, it's called 'lighterlater'

[url= http://www.lighterlater.org/ ]link link linky link[/url]

this is not just a 'thing' about winter.

remember August*? - not [i]quite[/i] enough light after work to get out for a long walk/run/ride/climb/sail/paddle whatever.

remember how at the same time, the sun was rising at 4.30 in the morning? why not move some of that morning light to the evening?

in midwinter it will be dark almost all the time anyway - tough, it's inevitable at this latitude.

(*or almost all of summer except June when it's light all of the time).

this proposal would make spring better, most of summer, and autumn. the price we would pay is slightly darker mornings in midwinter.

i can live with that.

Put us onto CET. Job done.

No more watch twiddling on the yearly Alps trip.

On the roads more will die in scotland if we go to CET.

It suggested that those living in central England and southern Scotland benefited most from the experiment. However, northern Scotland saw a net increase in the number of people killed or seriously injured.

TandemJeremy - Member
On the roads more will die in northern scotland if we go to CET.

Typical north scottish-centric view there TJ 😉 Surely not changing the clocks to suit 4 people and some sheep instead of the majority of the British population is just perverse?

We need to synchronise with Europe! This isn't about changing the clocks by 1 hour in the winter, but summer too.

The benefits would be most noticeable in the spring and autumn when it would be lighter into the evenings. We'd all be more active and less depressed. The roads would be a lot safer too.

There are compelling studies suggesting the economy would be very much better off too.

If Scotland doesn't like it, Scotland can have it's own time zone. Seeing as they have special tax priviliges which we all have to pay for, I don't see how they can moan. The issue is only felt in the far north of that country, where the population is negligible, so for the sake of the 65 million others in the country, they should find a way round the issue.

Seeing as they have special tax priviliges which we all have to pay for, I don't see how they can moan

Well I'd be interested to now what tax priviligesI have. Can you enlighten me?

Back on topic, it's not just the issues in Winter that are concerning in the North, Summer wouldn't be all that much fun either. Daylight until almost midnight doesn't really appeal either and I'm sure that many parents would agree. That being said a separate time zone would certainly go some way to solving the problem, but calling it Central European Time (which is after all what it is) would probably mean that it'd never happen

I looked up the sunrise / set times for central Scotland:

[b][i]Date Sunrise Sunset Length of day[/i]

22 Mar 2010 06:10 18:30 12h20m03s
21 Jun 2010 04:26 22:03 17h36m33s
20 Sep 2010 06:54 19:18 12h23m47s
21 Dec 2010 08:42 15:40 6h57m31s

27 Mar 2010 05:57 18:41 12h43m25s
[i]hours shift because clocks change forward 1 hour[/i]
28 Mar 2010 06:55 19:43 12h48m05s

30 Oct 2010 08:15 17:37 9h22m03s
[i]hours shift because clocks change backward 1 hour[/i]
31 Oct 2010 07:17 16:35 9h17m44s[/b]

It seems we should at least shift to summer time much earlier, like the end of February instead of the end of March.

TBH the whole clock shifting thing I find patronising and old fashioned. The clocks should stay one one time all year, and schools, business, and workers should shift their patterns to suit. Why do we need the government to tell us what time to start?

As has been said, farmers get up when it is light and stop working when it gets dark. They don't need to be told.

Schools should shift their opening times if they think it will be an improvement.

Having everyone make their own minds up would mean less peak hour traffic.

We don't all need to be on 9-5 year round.

I am lucky I can choose the hours I work so I can decide for myself what time I want to wake.

I deeply resent being plunged into winter in the space of one day. The days should naturaly close down and naturaly open out with the seasons. I can cope with that....anything else is bad for you and should not be allowed.

GMT all year for me please. I hate dark mornings. I don't mind dark evenings at all.

And for the lad who was complaining about not getting to run / ride in the evening Mr Trout and Mr Spokecycles are your friends I hear (other lights are available)

yes, but from the point of view of the general public, not everyone can/wants to faff around with lights. you can't play football / cricket / frisbee / etc relying on torches.

why do we need the sun to rise at 4am in the summer?

question;

how many people benefit from the sun rising at 4am? - 3 hours before almost everyone is awake.

Luminous frisbees, cricket is a summer game anyway and most social football I see is under lights or indoors all year.

Next.

I'm in the middle (Cumbria) and absolutely hate it when the clocks change in winter. I like being able to come home from work on time one day a week and go out with the family & dog for a little walk. Changing the clocks means that there are a couple of extra months each year that I can't do this.

Saying that I struggle to get my ar*e out of bed in the morning so that might have something to do with it.

I think the solution is that everyone should just be allowed to work an hour less in Winter.

Why don't we just keep GMT and make everyone get up earlier/later?

well, i hope everyone in scotland is happy now*.

on friday i went to work at 7.30 in the light, and came home at 5 in the light, i had time for a short run.

tomorrow i will go to work at 7.30 in the light, and come home at 5 in the dark.

brilliant. how exactly is this making best use of the available daylight?

(*please note the sarcasm)

being safer going to work / school in the light for longer.

The answer is to give Scotland it's independance so they can have whatever time zone they want .If we cut them adrift it will save our English Government a fortune in health care as they all live on Tennants Super ,Irn Bru and battered Mars bars. 😀

Last night I had to adjust 10 clocks, the central heating controller, room thermostat, microwave, oven, and washing machine. Today I've done the car, still haven't reset my watches; at least the PC, TV, Freeview box, one of the clocks and my phone take care of it themselves. Can anybody come up with a sensible reason why we have to go through this apart from the fact that we've always done it (within our lifetimes)? Why not stay on one time all the time? Other countries manage it.

Incidentally, good report here showing how staying on BST in winter would save lives and money in Scotland - [url= http://www.psi.org.uk/pdf/2010/SCOTLAND_DAYLIGHT_FINAL_v4.pdf ]link[/url] -

During the 1968–71 experiment with BST, there were 11% fewer fatalities and serious injuries in England and Wales than would have been expected under the status quo. The overall reduction in Scotland was significantly greater at 17%, in spite of a small increase in casualties in the morning in northern Scotland

Edit: Damn, just found 3 more phone handsets that need to be changed to GMT. 👿

TBH - it doesn't bother me on way or t'other. However, there seem to be at least two options for change:

Adopt BST all year...

Adopt BST in winter and BST+1 in summer (i.e. integrate with CET).

The latter would still involve clock twiddling twice a year.

Spongebob - Member

If Scotland doesn't like it, Scotland can have it's own time zone. [b]Seeing as they have special tax priviliges[/b] which we all have to pay for, I don't see how they can moan.

Oh aye - what are they then?

European countries have summertime so you would still need to change clocks. Going to CET would be horrible in Scotland - I remember what it was like.

Teh road safty aregument does not stack up -

The Department for Transport's initial analysis of road casualty data during the experiment suggested more people were injured in the darker mornings, but fewer people were injured in the lighter afternoons.

It estimated a net reduction of 2,700 people killed or seriously injured during the first two years of the experiment.

However, it was recognised at the time that the calculations did not take into account drink-driving legislation passed in 1967, so the Department for Transport eventually re-analysed the data and factored that in. In 1989, [b]it found the data agreed broadly with the earlier estimates. [/b]

In other words no reduction in casualties.

It seems we should at least shift to summer time much earlier, like the end of February instead of the end of March.

I was just about to type the same thing. We shift to winter time just under 2 months before the darkest day (ie 31st october to 21st december).

But we switch back over 3 months later ie the of march.

It should be the end of February as stated.

To be honest we could just shift the clocks for December and January and that should just about allow enough sunlight in the morning in most of the north.

That way we'd only have 2 months GMT

Id go for mid november to mid feb for winter time as a compromise 3 months at gmt - that should avoid the not light till 10 am nonsense

In 1989, it found the data agreed broadly with the earlier estimates.

In other words no reduction in casualties

On the other hand in 1998 [url= http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/reports_publications/trl_reports/cat_road_user_safety/report_a_new_assessment_of_the_likely_effects_on_road_accidents_of_adopting_sdst.htm ]it re-evaluated the data[/url] and concluded that "The estimates of the reduction in the number of deaths per year range between 104 and 138, depending upon the assumptions made. ". Probably shows that you can prove anything with statistics.

well, i hope everyone in scotland is happy now*.
on friday i went to work at 7.30 in the light, and came home at 5 in the light, i had time for a short run.
tomorrow i will go to work at 7.30 in the light, and come home at 5 in the dark.
brilliant. how exactly is this making best use of the available daylight?
(*please note the sarcasm)

Can you not run in the dark?

My bet is this thread will rapidly fall off the front page as people just get on with it...

[url= http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~jsm28/british-time/ ]interesting article on the subject[/url]

The clocks argument always seems less london centric and more overly uk focused. From some of the arguments in the media you'd think we were the most northerly point in europe and no one else has to contend with the daylight hours we have.

am bo - Member

Can you not run in the dark?

that's actually a good question.

i've only got mediocre eye-sight, and i struggle to see enough detail offroad to avoid twisting my ankle - even with a torch.

head torches don't cast visible shadows - which i find vital for picking out details like rocks etc. A brighter / better head torch wouldn't really help...

so, it'll be 5 months before I can go for another run after work. moving to Euro time would reduce this to about 3 months. which may not sound much but, it's 40 more days a year when i can go for a run after work. multiply that by 65million people and we could make a measurable improvement to the nation's health.

how many people won't do any exercise outside in the evenings next week because it's dark too early?

if it's one percent of the population, that's still 650,000 people.

you tell me another way to get so many people exercising more or less for free.

i've only got mediocre eye-sight, and i struggle to see enough detail offroad to avoid twisting my ankle - even with a torch.

Compromise then...run on road.

i'd rather poke my eyes out with a fork.

sorry, i'm being flippant. yes, you're probably right, and i probably will. but my point stands.

lighter evenings would encourage the good fat people of this largely lazy nation to get off it's collective fat ar53 for half an hour.

lighter evenings would encourage the good fat people of this largely lazy nation to get off it's collective fat ar53 for half an hour.

Nah, it just means they will be able to see the menu clearer at the KFC drive through.

i din't say it would [i]make[/i] them, merely [i]encourage[/i].

and if it only works on a single-figure-percentage of the population, then it's still a massive number of people.

use me as an example; next week running after work will be less fun, and i might not bother. last week i had fewer excuses and i did.

Run before work?

that would mean getting up before 7.

not gonna happen.

i understand that some people have to get up early for a long commute, or to deal with kids, dogs etc. but people who get up early to do exercise are weird.

and i say that as someone hopelessly addicted to exercise.

ahwiles - Member
that would mean getting up earlier.

not gonna happen.

Wow...your the veritable Goldilocks of exercise opportunities.