[Closed] Not just Lance or Cycling then..

Not quite the same but still....

Mild understatement, but still....

Its still enhancement of sports performance using chemical stimulants, but the arguably so its eating cake mid ride....

Operation Puerto potentially had Tennis players and Wedyball players in it's sights at one point apparently

Operation Puerto potentially had Tennis players and [u]Wedyball[/u] players in it's sights at one point apparently

If you are going to be hilarious, at least spell it right.

Does anyone really believe that any big money sport is clean?
Honestly?

Boxing, football, cricket, rugby, horse racing, all as bent as a Turk's boot.

Cheating is endemic in motorsport, even chess is dodgy.

Can anyone name a fair, clean sport?

Pro-bleedin-Plus?! You can buy that in ASDA!

even chess is dodgy

Surley they can afford some good coffee

The thing is everything an athlete does is to enhance their performance - that is what training is

Where we decide something is unfair in terms of the advantage it gives you is the real question.
I doubt anyone on here is well informed enough to decide

Energy Gel - Fine
Energy gel with caffeine - fine
Energy gel with amphetamine - not fine

is caffeine back on the ban list? it used to have a low limit, so 2/3 strong cups of coffee put you over the limit.

So what about all the caffine gels, what about all the sports that redbull and other "energy" (high caffine full of sh*t) drinks?
That spend lots of money in sport, so is the OP saying are they drug dealers?

It is also a proven fact that caffeine, helps burn fat, impoves enurance, thats why cycling have a good relationships with coffee shop, 😉

Bit of a leap from ProPlus to EPO and blood transfusions. I've noticed in the past that a high caffine drink before a game of football did wonders for the team performance.

I've swiped this from another forum

Cycling - At least it's not distance running
I google translated some very damning articles about the doping situation in distance running.

Quote:
As a test, and demonstrate the need for implementation in the athletics of the biological passport, a mechanism already used in cycling and takes into account the usual hematologic a sportsman over the years for possible referrals due doping, a group of scientists from the anti-doping laboratory in Lausanne and the IAAF, among which is the Spanish physician Juan Manuel Alonso, have published a study using the basis of 7,289 blood samples from 2001 to 2737 athletes from around the world, most of them joggers.

His conclusion is spectacular: 14% of the samples are suspected of blood doping (use of EPO or autologous) if the formula is applied to the passport, which includes the relationship between hematocrit, hemoglobin and reticulocytes.

This fact, stated by the authors as a major argument for starting the passport serves, however, reveal that the IAAF was aware for years that there were a number of athletes who are not cheaters punished.

"The study raises more questions than it answers. Shows that during the last decade, the IAAF knew what athletes showed abnormal hematologic results," says Australian scientist Michael Ashenden, one of the world's greatest experts on blood doping, "is sad that a federation with much power as the IAAF has chosen so far not punish such cases while a smaller, such as ICU, assume the legal risk to test the passport before the courts. Anyway, better late than never. " Recently, the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) gave a big boost to the passport as an indirect method of drug testing to punish the Italian cyclists Pietro Caucchioli and Franco Pellizotti.

Another finding of the study, published in the journal Clinical Chemistry, is the great heterogeneity of results by geographic region of the athletes. There is a country where 48% of the samples are suspect, another 39%, another 23% ... Although the study clearly anonymous, does not reveal the names of countries, extrapolating the number of positive cases of doping in recent years, it can be concluded without error that are Russia, Morocco, France and Spain the most polluted, as well as Operation Greyhound has revealed.

"If we accept everything he says the study, 20% of those 2,737 athletes could be punished. But, being more conservative, we would talk about 100 world class. Assuming that half are still competing, speak of 50 possible cases doping, "says Ashenden, who, apart from big supporter of the passport, is one of the UCI experts to analyze the data," the implications of this issue are enormous not only for what they pose to the track itself but also by the unprecedented legal burden would in court sports. "
http://elpais.com/diario/2011/04/03/...15_850215.html

From 2006:

Quote:
Traces of doping in 23 athletes during the European Championships in Sweden

The Swedish anti-doping authorities suspect were at least 23 of the participants in the just-Athletics Championships in Gothenburg to have been doped.

Analyses of hemoglobin content in blood samples from the 23 European championship participants have anti-doping authorities with a clear scientific indications that they had doped during the competition in Gothenburg.

"We took blood samples from a total of 151, EM-participants. 23 of them exceeded the international athletics federation agreed levels, suggesting that they had taken EPO or blood doping, "said the Swedish anti-doping chief Bengt Eriksson.
http://politiken.dk/sport/ECE165669/...-em-i-sverige/

Professor Bengt Saltin commented on the results:
Quote:
"It is approaching what we saw in cycling and XC skiing in the 90's".
http://www.svt.se/2.21059/1.684931/f...?page2396163=1

Quote:
"Cycling, XC skiing and biathlon use blood profiling, which the IAAF has not yet introduced. If you can't catch a runner with the EPO-test, it's a carte-blanche, Saltin concludes."
http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportblade...cle11466511.ab

Quote:
Saltin accuses Kenyans of doping

The Kenyan runners is first class on long haul, but perhaps there is a very special reason.

The Swedish physiology professor Bengt Saltin, who for nearly 40 years has worked in Denmark and was the first president of the Anti Doping Denmark, said that the Kenyans are using illegal methods.

In the TV show "Sportschau" on the German television channel ARD gave Saltin Saturday expressed his suspicions to the beautiful times that runners from Kenya have been in recent years.

- We have noticed how Kenya's blood values ??during the period 2008 to 2010 have been much higher than in previous years, when they race in Europe.

- Such a phenomenon we have not seen before. It is beyond any doubt for me that there is some kind of blood manipulation, says Saltin according to the German news agency DPA.

The International Association of Athletics Federations IAAF has not made similar observations, but it is perhaps also with the fact that there will not be performed Doping tests in Kenya.

Thus one can not detect if a runner instance are doped with EPO, and it admits the Swiss Gabriel Dollé, who is the IAAF's medical director.

- It has not been possible to bring about the necessary conditions, says Dollé referring to the fact that there are strict requirements for transporting and storing doping samples that you can not live up to in many African countries including Kenya.
http://www.dr.dk/Sporten/Oevrig_spor...0519202835.htm

Quote:
Q: Do you think that athletics should introduce individual blood passports?

Professor Bengt Saltin: - Absolutely. But the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) does not approve the method. They see a problem with it because there are many ethnic groups represented in athletics and you do not know if certain groups have naturally higher Hb values ??than Europeans. But they could perform the required work reasonably fast if the will existed. There are probably many people who want to, but the board is not active. If they set aside a few million, they could make a good survey and thus produce reasonable Hb-values??.

Q: Why not more blood instead of urine tests?

A: - It would really be needed, but the International Association of Athletics Federations is hopelessly opposed to blood tests. There are also
religious groups in athletics that are opposed to blood testing.
http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&...p_x0RA&cad=rja

Athletics coach Stefan Olsson (2012):
Quote:
"I feel like we could step on the gas pedal, particularly in the fight against blood doping."

He believes that athletics is far behind XC skiing in the case of blood profiling, which should reveal high blood values.

"Yes, in skiing, one can be prevented from participating when the values ??are abnormal, but athletics is not even close to it. It seems like they are still testing merely to build up these blood banks and not to catch anyone. Here, something must be done, I think."
http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportblade...cle15222624.ab

Think it's only a matter of time before big names from football, rugby, athletics etc are outed.

"Pro-bleedin-Plus?! You can buy that in ASDA!"

Many cough medicines and nasal sprays that you can buy in ASDA are on the banned list! Remember Alain Baxter lost an olympic medal for using a nasal spray from boots!

WRT the blood doping issue.
SKY has the money to set up so that Bradley Wiggins can sleep many nights in a hyperbaric chamber. What effect does this have on the blood? The same as EPO - but it's legal.
The question is: ethically & morally is there any difference?

I'm not sure there's any such thing as a 'clean' sport, it really is just the degree of doping that differs.

SKY has the money to set up so that Bradley Wiggins can sleep many nights in a hyperbaric chamber. What effect does this have on the blood? The same as EPO - but it's legal.
The question is: ethically & morally is there any difference?

Am I right in think the Brownlee brothers do something similar?

[url= http://road.cc/content/news/69193-20-teams-dozens-riders-and-%E2%82%AC30m-italian-doping-inquiry-bigger-operacion-puerto ]http://road.cc/content/news/69193-20-teams-dozens-riders-and-%E2%82%AC30m-italian-doping-inquiry-bigger-operacion-puerto[/url]

From italy.

I think many UK endurance athletes have been doing this because it is legal.

That link about the Italian doping scandal is scary.

Did anyone else see the Spacial they did on Skysports News with Richard Moore & Brian Smith? This was quite a statement from Smith:

"In the 1990s, especially when I was a pro in Europe, it was known and talked about that EPO was about. In fact, I was in a doctor's surgery when a junior cyclist of an Italian team came in and there were vials of EPO that his father had brought in. The junior team in Italy had been giving them to him to take and he didn't know what they were, so I knew that in Italy, at that time when I was a pro, EPO was coming about.

The whole thing is available [url= http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/news/22854/8175495/The-doping-debate ] HERE [/url]

SKY has the money to set up so that Bradley Wiggins can sleep many nights in a hyperbaric chamber. What effect does this have on the blood? The same as EPO - but it's legal.

I thought the UCI ruled those illegal a while back?

The question is: ethically & morally is there any difference?

or do governing bodies back date banned substances/practices/technology on the assumption that you should have known it's wrong?

Rusty Spanner - Member
Does anyone really believe that any big money sport is clean?
Honestly?

Boxing, football, cricket, rugby, horse racing, all as bent as a Turk's boot.

Cheating is endemic in motorsport, even chess is dodgy.

Can anyone name a fair, clean sport?

Rowing. It's not big money but it's high profile. Yes, there are still cheats but most/many of the people winning aren't cheating, it's not endemic and it's not considered acceptable by those competing at that level.

Cheating is endemic in motorsport,

The cheating in motorsport is a lot more open though. Teams do everything they can to win and it us up to the FIA to perform scrutineering to check they meet the regs.

If it passes scrutineering its legal, even if it doesn't meet the intent of the rule.

Then the rules get updated, the team stops what they were doing and try to find another advantage.

This issue with the UCI is that they are crap at "scrutineering" for the riders.

Well the ProPlus certainly didn't enhance their performance then did it?

This issue with the UCI is that they [s]are crap at "scrutineering" for the riders[/s] have a vested interest in keeping money & stars in the sport & avoiding negative press.

FTFY

Can anyone name a fair, clean sport?

DH?
BMX?
XC?

I'm getting a little sick of 'cycling' meaning 'road cycling'....

DH?
BMX?
XC?

Plenty of fairly high profile XC riders have been caught.

Can anyone name a fair, clean sport?
DH?
BMX?
XC?

I'm getting a little sick of 'cycling' meaning 'road cycling'...

Blimey, bit shocked you put XC in there.

I am amazed that a lot of rugby players havent been caught. You look at the size and speed of some of them and I cant help but be suspicious.

All forms of motorsport are open to cheating, even in lowly club trials you will get riders having a moan at the observer to try and change the score, parents of kids are the worst.

Its just not the F1 boys. A mate used to race Renault 5's the cheating in that was ridiculous.

Cheating is endemic in motorsport,

Strikes me as being quite a different kettle of fish to Athlete focused sports. Never any doubt in the public's mind that it's as much about the motor as the driver.

DH & BMX then....
exciting to watch & cyclists you can respect
The opposite of road racing to me.

I am amazed that a lot of rugby players havent been caught. You look at the size and speed of some of them and I cant help but be suspicious.

Agreed. I played at fairly high level back at the advent of the pro game...the guys picked up for pro contracts suddenly seemed to explode. You'd not see them for a while, then a few months later they were massive, a size not merely attributable to sending longer hours on the gym, or legal supplements. Guys I played with we're students at the time, spending every spare hour chucking weighs around irn the hope of picking up contracts themselves, like midgets compared to the elite....I took the other approach of getting lazier and fatter....

DH & BMX then....

What makes you think that these sports are any cleaner than others?

BMX is pretty much all about the explosive sprint to the first corner, that is very open to performance improvement through use of PEDs.

I am amazed that a lot of rugby players havent been caught. You look at the size and speed of some of them and I cant help but be suspicious.

A while ago I went to a talk given by Phill Greening and a young Wasps hopful who would go on to play for England. It was organised to promote one of their sponsors who provided all of their dietary supliments, Musashi.

These guys were on every supliment under the sun. Everthing from protien and creatine through to legal stimulants etc. They would taken them before and after training, before matches, all the time.

You can see how it is a small step from that to a few steroids or some testosterone and then hgh.

Unfortunately I don't think you can avoid this situation where people will take every legal method to achive an adavntage, whether it is the
England football team taking a load of caffine or Wiggo sleeping in a altitude tent.