If schools are the problem. Why don’t catholic schools cause issues in England for example?
Oh I don't know, could it be the lack of proximity to an Orange Lodge?
I work with folk day in day out that come out with the self perpetuating bigoted shit that you claim doesn't exist. Folk that kick off and go speak to the teacher because their wean got put in the green reading group. 'Nae fenians/huns' on Tinder profiles, starting fights with folk for singing the wrong team songs then not understanding why they "acted like dicks" ever after. And the latest delight, 'Rangers Action Force: Armed and Ready' stickers appearing on street furniture, kids play parks and, of course, the Catholic school sign. And that's not even the 3 towns with the obligatory UB tag on every sign on the way in.
You repeatedly deny this exists but it does, in my face, every ****ing day. Comments made about the colour of the ****ing t-shirt you're wearing, car you drive or any number of other mundane things weaponised by bigotry. Othering children at 5 leaves a lasting impression, my daughter is on a shared campus but you wouldn't know it.
deadlydarcy
Free Member
Interesting, if irrelevant to the point raised wrt separation of communities in NI at primary school level.
It's not really irrelevant it's worth mentioning, cause people conflate different issues and don't really understand that they have different histories. and we get the whole catholic schools "question" over here, as if scotland has the same segregation issues as NI.
I still don't think dissolution of catholic schools in NI is a solution btw, that's an attack on one side and completely counter productive.
Almost all schools were originally set up by the churches. The involvement of the church in today’s schooling is a legacy to that
If you look into it this seems more of a myth. Whilst initially schools were built by the churches and other organisations such as the guilds by about 1850 it was clear that they werent up to the task of educating the entire country.
There was lots of arguments during that period about how education should be provided and various compromises made. For part of that time the C of E in particular was opposed to state involvement even though it was failing to deliver the level of education required although eventually they realised they had lost and switched to trying to retain a decent amount of power.
One of the outcomes of this was in the 1870 act there was a provision for grants covering the cost of the new schools available to the churches which they used extensively vastly increasing the number of church schools.
I went to a state-secondary school in Glasgow. The catholic kids went to a different school, except those that had been expelled and ended-up at our school. I had lots of catholic friends, but it was the level of bigotry by the bowler-hatted, sash-wearing fraternity that was by far the worst - one classmate was pictured on the front pages kicking the head of a Celtic fan after a pitch invasion at an old-firm match circa 1979. I made a few trips to Northern Ireland in the early 80's - that was an eye-opener, being stopped at an Army checkpoint in Newry and the recognition that 'the troubles' were often used as a front for organised crime, smuggling petrol, cigarettes and drugs. Any re-introduction of differing tariff regimes will between the EU and UK will no doubt re-introduce the smuggling.
Almost all schools were originally set up by the churches.
Hmmm, some of the earliest schools may have been (or privately funded and managed by the church, as my local one was), but it's been almost 150 years since most primary education was brought under control of the state in England and Wales. I'd reckon that most schools currently existence were originally set up by public agencies of some type or another.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_boards_in_England_and_Wales
anyway these pallets, how do they get away with burning them? Is it a case its better to let them get on with it rather than interfere and risk a riot?
anyway these pallets, how do they get away with burning them? Is it a case its better to let them get on with it rather than interfere and risk a riot?
In simple terms yes, although as I understand it the issue is not "risk a riot" but rather "almost certainly" end up with large scale problems - and potentially personal attacks on the individuals (or their families) who make such a decision. On a visit to a friend in Belfast I was surprised that people put up with the painting of kerbs etc outside their houses, until it was explained that if you got caught removing them it could result in a knee capping! Worryingly the last time I was in Armadale (the weekend Rangers won the league) it was looking remarkably similar - it was hard to believe every house I passed was delighted with the redecoration, and the police seemed to be working on contain rather than disperse the crowd!
poly
Free MemberAlmost all schools were originally set up by the churches.
I doubt that very much.
Almost all schools were originally set up by the churches. The involvement of the church in today’s schooling is a legacy to that
Yeah, I didn't word that well. I should have said "the original schools" clearly not most of today's schools. I tried to say that but got the emphasis wrong.
I still don’t think dissolution of catholic schools in NI is a solution btw, that’s an attack on one side and completely counter productive.
If you thought I was arguing for dissolution of catholic schools in NI when I first mentioned schools you misread what I wrote. I was referring to schools in Scotland. There are of course arguments for it in NI too, but I'm not naive enough to think that is politically something that would be viable in the short term. To be clear I'm also not saying catholic schools are the problem - its the involvement of religion in schools at all (so called non-denominational schools have acts of religious worship expected by law) - you don't just get rid of catholic schools, you get rid of state funding for any religious worship etc in schools (not outlawing "RE" so people can learn about all religions/beliefs).
I know you were talking about Scotland.
It still boils down to an attack on the catholic community, when the question is framed in Scotland or NI. Let's no kid anyone on about that.
If you want to chip your wares in with the orange mob. Batter in.
Mix them up. let the children decide what's what and who's who, not the bitter auld dinosaurs living out their past vicariously through them.
They're stuck in the mud, a couple of generations of all mixed schools and we'd be well on the way out of it.
I know you were talking about Scotland.
It still boils down to an attack on the catholic community, when the question is framed in Scotland or NI. Let’s no kid anyone on about that.
If you want to chip your wares in with the orange mob. Batter in.
Away tae **** is it.
It still boils down to an attack on the catholic community, when the question is framed in Scotland or NI.
That's a perverse reading of the argument for desegregating and secularising schools - esp when it's Prod schoolkids that are on the minority in NI and Catholic schoolkids that are in the minority in Scotland.
Prod schoolkids that are on the minority
Fairly recent that. The argument generally doesn't centre around faith schools though it centres around catholic schools.
I understand the faith arguments and separation and could get on board if I thought that where this generally comes from, I'm personally non religious. But it isn't.
It still boils down to an attack on the catholic community
Um... no. What a bizarre thing to say.
Nothing bizarre about it, if you understand the reality of the conversation.
At the moment it's Catholic schools and schools so by disbanding the former and not the latter that is an attack on one and not the other.
The arguement about whether education should be secular is not an argument, it should but it's not and therein lies the problem.
Id love to see a rogue 70mph gust while those bellends are up there.
At the moment it’s Catholic schools and schools so by disbanding the former and not the latter that is an attack on one and not the other.
Removal of a weird historical quirk/privilege for a religious sect isn't an attack. The idea that the institutionally child-abusing Catholic church should be in charge of young children at all is absurd tbh.
But it is if a ruling is applied to one group and not another especially if you are within that group that is the tribalism of human nature ( mountain bikers must have number plates but road cyclists don't need to).
The second half of that post is ridiculous. In my limited experience the actual church has little to do with the in class experience of pupils, tweaks to daily structure possibly a different approach to religious studies and feast days but it's not a peado pick n mix.
I don't generally agree with having faith schools, but that's another conversation really, they can't be blamed for these bawbags behaviour. Catholic schools do not cause nitwits to be nitwits, they find a way, and will hang their hat on any suitable cause.
Help for heroes, brexit, indyref, palestine, US politics.... the list is endless, they always feel as if they have to be on a different side from them.
I'm talking about Scotland, I wouldn't really like to comment on NI as I'm not in any way an expert on what goes on over there, and tbh I don't really want to know either.
The second half of that post is ridiculous. In my limited experience the actual church has little to do with the in class experience of pupils, tweaks to daily structure possibly a different approach to religious studies and feast days but it’s not a peado pick n mix.
I never claimed it was but the idea that a vastly rich, corrupt organisation that has systematically covered up child abuse for centuries should be even nominally responsible for things like education, care homes, adoption etc is bonkers to me. And no they're not the only ones.
If I had a dog in this fight it wouldn't be anti-catholic, my granny was a Celtic supporter from Glasgow. I just don't agree with religious indoctrination of children full stop.
Anyway, not very relevant to the topic so I'll shut up.
At the moment it’s Catholic schools and schools so by disbanding the former and not the latter that is an attack on one and not the other.
By "[word other than Catholic] school" do you mean a non-denominational school? And is that de facto or de jure non-denominational?
anyway these pallets, how do they get away with burning them? Is it a case its better to let them get on with it rather than interfere and risk a riot?
Yes. It is a scary manifestation of what happens when policing by consent is stretched to the limit.
Daft question, but when did anyone (other than those saying you can't) suggest getting rid of catholic schools? The only suggestions I can see say faith schools, one is not synonymous with the other. Faith schools would include Cof?? Muslim, Jewish and so on.
For my money I'd add private and single sex to the list too but that's way off the already distant topic.
Edit, I take the point that there are more catholic schools than others in NI but suggesting that getting rid of faith schools is anti Catholic is ridiculous. If you ban single sex golf clubs, given they're almost exclusively male only, it's that an attack on men or simply recognition of the fact segregation is nonsense? Now if you banned got rid of catholic schools but not CofI ones then absolutely that's anti catholic but it's not what anyone - outside of the sorts of folks building those bonfires - is suggesting.
policing by consent
More like being willing partners with extreme unionists for decades. Very difficult to put that genie back in the bottle.
I just don’t agree with religious indoctrination of children full stop.
What do you think happens actually at 'faith' schools?
I don't know about indoctrination. How do you think kids generally respond to people banging on about Jesus? As someone who endured a Catholic education I can assure you that there is no more effective method to ensure a nation of atheists.
When you're 16 the last thing on earth you want to be doing is reading the bible (we were forced to take RE at GSCE). I took the opportunity on my final exam to ignore the questions and write a detailed appraisal of my opinion on the Catholic church. I was rewarded with a U (Unclassified) as a result. I was quite pleased with my days work. 😀
I don't know about religion, if you could put up with the RE, we just got a better standard of education than the godless heathens up the road. I would imagine thats the case for 99.999% of the people sending their kids to 'faith' schools.
Interesting fact for you: Catholic schools are particularly popular with Muslim parents.
@Dangeourbrain Tbh, up here in the west of Scotland wastelands, RC schools are pretty much the only faith schools that feature in almost every town, venture into Glasgow and You'll get schools of other faith, but not out in the sticks, which is where most of the said nitwits reside.
Crikey i really don’t know why people live in those areas, I’d be out as soon as I could to get away from all that rubbish, the violence etc.
More like being willing partners with extreme unionists for decades. Very difficult to put that genie back in the bottle.
That too.
But you see it on a smaller scale in England too - even when the police are at daggers drawn with the 'group' concerned. In some cases (and not wanting to go OT or too controversial) there is clearly a trade-off of an acceptable level of petty crime associated with a given event vs the potential implications of policing it how 'regular day to day life' might be policed. The police do weigh these things up. They have to.
Crikey i really don’t know why people live in those areas, I’d be out as soon as I could to get away from all that rubbish, the violence etc.
Can't tell if this is a joke or so unaware of the privelage you have to be able to 'just move' because you don't like it
Crikey i really don’t know why people live in those areas, I’d be out as soon as I could to get away from all that rubbish, the violence etc.
Most of the people who live there probably would too. These aren't exactly salubrious neighbourhoods with high levels of employment and the best education these Isles can offer. That's a big part of the problem in NI and anywhere else really. The "trouble" is invariably a close bedfellow to poverty.
Of course faith schools are about indoctrinating children into believing medieval myths about sky fairies. Its their only purpose in existing
No faith school should be getting any government funding.
To me faith schools are a form of child abuse. Utterly disgusting the damage they cause
we just got a better standard of education than the godless heathens up the road. I would imagine thats the case for 99.999% of the people sending their kids to ‘faith’ schools.
School with selective admissions and additional funding stream in better results shocker.
Tbh, up here in the west of Scotland wastelands,
It's fairly unavoidable that you'll end up with geographical bias but if you look close enough you always will. Of course the folks building those bonfires aren't likely to be taking a broad overview, but rather that the primary school they nearly burnt down with their leaning tower of paletza is being forced to dump its CofI affiliation and that this is yet another step towards the unwanted reunification.
I'd love to see a united Ireland tbh, but dunno if I'd wish that lot on Ireland.
I agree they would find something else to nail their bigotry to but my argument is that if you mix kids rather than treating one set as different then that's one less barrier and IMO at a far more significant stage of a person's development. Its coming anyway, the very obvious stud wall partitions between Largs Primary and St Mary's show the ambition.
This isn't an argument about catholics, this is about faith schools full stop. If it was the other way round I'd still be saying the same thing, be under no illusions.
Of course faith schools are about indoctrinating children into believing medieval myths about sky fairies. Its their only purpose in existing
No faith school should be getting any government funding.
To me faith schools are a form of child abuse. Utterly disgusting the damage they cause
Meanwhile, in the 21st century real world, both my kids went to the CodE primary here in the village, and youngest is at a Catholic academy. Despite/because of regular church services, assemblies and now Mass, neither of them are remotely religious, but they are surprisingly well educated and tolerant of those who are, regardless of which sky fairy is involved.
While there are lots of things I'd like to change about education and religious practices, the vast majority of kids coming out of religious backed schools nowadays are not manic, intolerant religious crazies who have been groomed and abused. And certainly locally, if you restrict the involvement of religious organisations, then the education provision would be much worse. They are schools supported by religious groups, not faith schools supported by the public money.
Edit - realise the situation in sleepy Englandshire is not the same as NI or Scotland and my experience worth nothing in those contexts
Of course faith schools are about indoctrinating children into believing medieval myths about sky fairies. Its their only purpose in existing
They're not very good at it then
They are schools supported by religious groups, not faith schools supported by the public money.
Bollox. Are they totally independent or do they have government funding?
Its utter nonsense to say religious schools are not about indoctrination. thats their entire purpose. Of course it will not take on some kids but religious indoctrination is the whole purpose of faith schools.
Its disgusting to me that my tax money is given to religious bigots to indoctrinate children IMO its simply child abuse to indoctrinate children in this way.
Edit - see the edit - of course thats true
@squirrelking I completely agree, but I think the folks that completely hang their hat on that being the cause are missing a lot of other factors.
When I was at primary school, St Brendans down the road had a boiler failure, and their primary 6 and 7 came to our school for several months. They started, finished and had a different break times from us. WTF is that all about? I had mates in those classes, and I never seen them at school.
Bloody bizarre.
They’re not very good at it then
And? The attempt is bad enough. Incompetent bigots are still bigots
A key teaching of the abrahamic religions is that adherents to a particular creed are "better"
Its disgusting to me that my tax money is given to religious bigots to indoctrinate children IMO its simply child abuse to indoctrinate children in this way.
When was the last time you went into a church school? In fact, when was the last time you went into any school? Unless you've got some sort of actual knowledge of what schools are teaching kids about religion, you sound a bit nutty saying this kind of stuff.
From the above, an issue is whether or not the school discriminates on faith grounds for entry purposes. Leaving aside what is taught, children being taught in mono-cultural classrooms which do not reflect the diversity of the wider community is clearly not ideal whatever steps are taken by teachers to deal with diversity issues.
The RC sixth form college across the road from us clearly doesn't discriminate, given the obvious ethnic diversity of the students. But it appears this is not the case for all RC schools in NI.
ETA and even if there isn't actual entry discrimination, if kids from different communities are sent to different schools so there is de facto segregated education, that is an issue also.
What other purpose is there to faith schools? People do not notice this stuff because its normalised. that does not mean it does not exist.
