TJ is right. It worked really well in India
Pah!
Mere collateral damage (>1m dead, I believe).
As long as it is happening to 'someone else somewhere else' then meh.
Or so the mentality of the Brexiteer goes.
And don't for one second think that the English Nationalists who still have a boner for Brexit regard NI as part of 'us'.
@Sandwich - I said "over 300years" so I'm still correct 😜
We'll not be falling out over this though will we??
Poly – which school did you go to 😉
I went to a school in Glasgow where pupils literally used to nick cutlery from the school canteen to go and fight the "other" school in the local park at lunchtimes - it was them and us, religion was not the main factor and I'm sure those sort of battles would have happened whatever label was used to define the schools. The fact we continue to segregate schools is outrageous as it simply fuels the sectarianism - but I'm of the belief that the vast majority of that is NOT about true religious hatred, and is just idiot tribalism, and people asking that question on the west of Scotland in 2021 are not trying to discriminate against Catholics, but looking for people "like them".
Send them back to where they came from?
I don't think TJ was being serious!
I wasn't either, I don't think for a minute that's where he was going with that.
I think TJ would be on thin ice if he was arguing for deporting quarrelsome people back to their ancestral homelands...
poly
Free Member
The fact we continue to segregate schools is outrageous as it simply fuels the sectarianism
Never does take long for someone to bring up this utter nonsense.
Hows that nonsense? 🤔
Well the argument is that faith schools cause bigotry. I went to a faith school, never got taught a bigoted thing in it. It's really not my fault if people hate me cause of the school I attended.
I thought the point was more that it would make it likely you only had friends of the same denomination as you, not that the schools had bigotry on the curriculum.
Thanks MCTD, I missed that, very good. I was talking to a builder out there during the troubles (double security front door/porch etc) and he explained although he was having to pay tributes to both sides, it was tax deductible!
I didn't believe my mate's brother when he mentioned paying cash so that his business wouldn't be burned down (large business in ballymena, if from there you'd know it ), especially so when he said it was done with the knowledge that he could claim it back as a legitimate business expense - the thought of such a state sanctioned protection racket is absurd yet it still goes on.
Pay us money or we'll burn your business then if you still don't pay we'll burn your house then if you still don't pay we'll shoot you.
I thought the point was more that it would make it likely you only had friends of the same denomination as you
Yup, this is what I feel as well having been ‘lucky’ enough to attend tim and proddy schools
grum
Free Member
I thought the point was more that it would make it likely you only had friends of the same denomination as you, not that the schools had bigotry on the curriculum.
Well naw, I would happily come home and play fitba and whatever else with every body else in the scheme I lived in. 😆 We don't live in an apartheid country. Bit different story in the north though when you've got peacewalls, entirely separate communities and the like, but those are not the result of schools.
Well the argument is that faith schools cause bigotry
No its not. Its that segregated schools do nothing to prevent it and help to further-entrench established points of view by simple virtue of teaching you from day 1, you are not the same. It does not matter if that school is segregated on the basis of faith, sex, skin colour, language, skull size, wealth or anything else the act of segregation enforces that you're different.
I went to a faith school, never got taught a bigoted thing in it
Did you somehow go through your entire education at a school with a selective admissions policy based on faith without ever learning why you were allowed to go and someone else wasn't?
There's no selective admissions policy for catholic schools.
If schools are the problem. Why don't catholic schools cause issues in England for example?
Because all we have to do to get in is pretend to go to church for a couple of weeks, then we forget about religion for the rest of our lives 😉
And the Church of England isn't so much a religion as the box you tick that says 'none of the above'
So no different than up here then.
There’s no selective admissions policy for catholic schools.
If you're talking GB, my experience was that our local Catholic school was selective, contained some throwback bullying staff and was deeply hypocritical.
We (My family) are "nominally" CofE which is the difference between GB and NI. The NI Catholic schools didn't tend to have any CofI pupils. Truly mixed schools were few and far between when Mrs Sandwich was at school there.
@ElShalimo no worries, I learned something researching my answer!
So no different than up here then.
Less flags, probably.
Sandwich
Full MemberIf you’re talking GB
My experience is limited to Scotland.
Well the argument is that faith schools cause bigotry.
That's not what I said. They fuel it - and I don't place the blame for that directly with the faiths and certainly not with the schools. But the idea that the school you go to is determined by the religion of your parents* is bonkers. It means that people from a very young age realise they are different from others (for better or worse). It means that people who go to the non-faith school get far less contact with people from the religions who go to the faith schools and thus create a less diverse experience.
Imagine if we had a school system that encouraged kids of a particular skin colour to a different school from the rest - then even if those kids were thriving (or possibly doing slightly better) you'd hardly be surprised if you never seem to get rid of conflict between the different groups.
I went to a faith school, never got taught a bigoted thing in it.
That may be true, it may even be true of almost all faith schools. In fact, it's probably even true for almost all non-faith schools. But what we learn at school is not just what's taught by the school.
It’s really not my fault if people hate me cause of the school I attended.
Nobody has ever suggested it's the fault of the pupils.
Its the fault of a system/government which has both allowed the Church of Scotland to have far too much involvement in the non-denominational schools and the fault of all the Churches for being complicit in it.
*Lets not pretend that at 5 you have any choice in your own religion.
You'll believe what you believe I guess. You are wrong though.
I think TJ would be on thin ice if he was arguing for deporting quarrelsome people back to their ancestral homelands…
Oops
I went to school in Glasgow and IMO there is no doubt that the sectarian divide in schools led to tribalism and "othering" a long time ago now tho
My experience is limited to Scotland.
Then why are you commenting on NI schools?
One wonders why they ever tried to desegregate schools in Jim Crowe-era USA.
I think they should put faith schools on the pyre, after all they cause all these problems. I remember my Catholic school lessons, it was how to despatch a Protestant silently, how to destabilise families of other creeds etc. It was deffo a training ground for hatred, terrorism and general nastiness
🤦
Actually that's wrong, it's just that place I did my GCSEs and made friends at
But what we learn at school is not just what’s taught by the school.
This is a such a valid point and one that can't be overestimated.
My experience of a faith based school is much more limited - I lasted 3 days in one as a trainee teacher in the 90's. I was assigned to it by the university along with my friend Hitesh, a hindu.
Day one introduced to the headmaster in his study. He took 1 look at Hits and said 'Well, I'm guessing you are not a Catholic?' and then to me 'And you son?'. I explained I was an atheist.
Day 2, introduced to the tutor group we were meant to be working with and the tutor (who we had not met until 10 seconds before outside the room) said words to the effect (in a joke, no joke tone) - "Now Mr X here is a Hindu and Mr Convert there is a sneaky atheist so careful what you say boys and watch out for them trying to 'turn you'."
Day 3 - a 1 hour morning assembly with a sermon about how lucky the boys were to be born (born I note, not chosen to be obvs) catholics and how amazeballs god was and how you'd have to be a muppet to not see this. Lots of meaningful glances in our direction from the stage.
That was enough for us, we clearly weren't welcome. So back to the uni and got ourselves reassigned. Teacher training is hard enough as it is without that shit too. Would the kids have had the nuance to pick up on this going on - no idea. But as an institution, it can do one.
after all they cause all these problems.
I don’t think anyone is saying this, are they?
Comparing faith schools in rUK to those in NI with the added context of sectarianism, and a past history as an apartheid region is pointless.
.Underhill
Full Member
My experience is limited to Scotland.Then why are you commenting on NI schools?
They weren't just brought up solely in relation to ni.
As for ni specifically. Do I see a need for desegregation over there absolutely. The peace walls need to come down. How you achieve that may in some circumstances mean you look at schools at certain flash points. But is it an argument the whole sale dismantling of catholic schools. No absolutely not. It's more an argument for shard campuses and an understanding rather than trying to dismantle fairly benign things.
You don't create peace and dismantle divides by attacking the other side.
Similarly I don't even think people should bother their arse about orange marches either. Or bonfires. They happen. They are largely inconsequential. And they only offend ye if you let them.
This thread is way off track - has anyone gone early and lit it yet? That'd be funny
has anyone gone early and lit it yet? That’d be funny
From what I have read the one good thing about these bonfires is it keeps all the orange order nutters out of trouble for a couple of weeks before since they are busy with 24 hour guard on them.
Fire a flaming arrow a la funeral pyre boats in Vikings?
Fire a flaming arrow a la funeral pyre boats in Vikings?
Good idea grum 🙂
There’s no selective admissions policy for catholic schools.
There is. Ask any Scottish local authority where their catholic school is oversubscribed and they'll tell you the policy. My local one is: "Baptised Roman Catholic children will be given priority for admission to Roman Catholic schools."
If schools are the problem. Why don’t catholic schools cause issues in England for example?
Interesting question. Is it not a problem, or is it just a lower "concentration" and less obvious?
Of course in England there are other faith schools, so it's not quite as simple as "Catholic" and "we assume you're Protestant", there is also much more fighting / scrambling to go to different schools, so potentially more mixing among kids in the local area anyway?
If schools are the problem. Why don’t catholic schools cause issues in England for example?
a) No one said schools are the only problem.
b) in England there isn't the same history of sectarianism as in Scotland, because there isn't the history of colonisation by one group
I thought this stuff was pretty obvious and not even controversial
b) in England there isn’t the same history of sectarianism as in Scotland, because there isn’t the history of colonisation by one group
There's no history of colonisation in Scotland. Scotland is more about the movement of people into Scotland and the attitudes toward that group. Schools here are a consequence of that, not the cause.
There’s no selective admissions policy for catholic schools.
and to quote POLY - there most certianly is an admissions policy for catholic schools... If you're not bothering the big man regularly, you're not coming in.. plus a load of other stuff - and it needs proof like the local priest to back you up with a letter and all sorts.. bonkers really.
Also, my local school (which my daughter is going to as she ticks all of the boxes) -has refused a child who quite literlly lives opposite the school and their mum works there - but she's doesn't atttend church... so yep - very selective..*
caveat unless you bung em a load of money - they like that -that's what all the rich folk are doing and saving them selves a few quid by not going to the local £7K a term privates!
Covenants?
There’s no history of colonisation in Scotland. Scotland is more about the movement of people into Scotland and the attitudes toward that group. Schools here are a consequence of that, not the cause.
Interesting, if irrelevant to the point raised wrt separation of communities in NI at primary school level.
There’s no history of colonisation in Scotland.
I'm talking about the colonisation of Northern Ireland by lowland Scots, obviously, and the overspill of issues around that back in Scotland itself. Plantation of Ulster etc.
Again I thought that much was obvious.
Scotland is more about the movement of people into Scotland and the attitudes toward that group. Schools here are a consequence of that, not the cause.
I mostly agree but I think its more complex than that. Almost all schools were originally set up by the churches. The involvement of the church in today's schooling is a legacy to that. But just because something has been that way for >100 years isn't a reason to keep it. You could just about see why when the church paid for the building etc - but weirdly it remains even when the state build a new school. Whether it was the Catholic Church wanting to make sure that their youngsters were properly educated and not exposed to Protestant indoctrination or the Church of Scotland not wanting the Catholic kids taking up spaces in their classrooms it doesn't really matter - 100 years later segregating kids on the basis of religion does nothing to help understanding or break down barriers. We propagate this segregation today.
Not only are they allowed to select pupils on religion, unless it changed fairly recently, they can also use it to select staff! Imagine that in any other workplace...
