TandemJeremy
Your failure to grasp the realities of the situation and your descent into childish name calling show how impoverished your argument is.
I do have to admit that at times when replying to Hagi i did have to delete and re-write my reply as i did feel some personal comments but i suppose i put that down to feeling so involved and strongly about this issue...
TJ you do love an argument dont you?
Don't you think its a bit paranoid and selfish that you seem to think you have the right to compulsorily medicate me?its not for me to justify not having it. Its for you to find some justification for your paranoid and hysterical point of view.
Paranoid? Hysterical? Please point out where my posting has become paranoid or hysterical, and I will apologise.
Show me where my posts have been factually incorrect or unjustified?
I am not saying we should all stock up with food and build fall out shelters.
I merely point out my particular situation, (well my wifes situation) which is that her prognosis should she get swine flu, would be dire.
This is not my own "paranoid" opinion, that is the opinion of her Immunologist, who is described as the leading immunologist in the UK.
wife + swine flu = bad things happen
so i believe she has the right to expect that the people treating her are following the best practise advice.
I have already said that (in my opinion!!) FRONTLINE NHS staff should be forced to have it, you arent frontline, so I am not advocating taking away your rights.
As someone (who is frontline) has already mentioned, there is precedent for this with enforced Rubella innocolation.
So which is more paranoid, following CDC and NHS advice based on fact and lots of very qualified people, or deciding to go against that advice on the basis of ................. er nothing so far, other than a general bad feeling......
I am no more at risk than the general public. Why should I take this medication for something I am unlikely to come into contact with? There is absolutely no advantage to the community at large to me taking it - many other folk would be better in the queue for inoculation.
I was saying that the general public should have the Vaccine too, not be forced to as they dont come into contact with at risk groups.
There is obviously no benefit to just you having it (unless a side effect is found to be a reduction in typing ability), but there are obvious benefits to everyone having it?
Reduced mortality being the headline benefit if i remember rightly?
Of course you cant force the general public to have it, but the benefits of mass vaccinations far outweigh the negatives.
I am basing the above statement, on the advice of the CDC, and of the NHS.
What are you basing your argument upon?
What is your argument, anyway? No one has said you must have it, only that you would have to be stupid or know something we dont, not to?
Your failure to grasp the realities of the situation and your descent into childish name calling show how impoverished your argument is.
Name calling, when? where?
Tim - you called me selfish as in the quote from you above. You also say I must be stupid not to want to have it.
There are no compulsory vaccinations in the NHS. All vaccines including this one carry risk. Why should people be forced to have medications with their risks?
What is your possible justification for forcing people to have it? Thats the case you have not made. Yes there is advice that front line NHS staff should have hit - that falls a long way short of your position that all front line staff must be forced to have it or lose their jobs.
Your wife is immunocompromised. However she is far more at risk from other infections than this rare and not serious variant on flu.
The scale and severity of the outbreak of swine flu in no way validates your reaction to it - thats why I call you hysterical and paranoid.
What you have failed to grasp is the right to self determination. To override this should and does require a much more serious risk than swine flu. Now if it where drug resistant TB or bubonic plague?
i didnt realise commenting that your stance on this was selfish, or that your suggested action was stupid constituted name calling? but hey ho
we appear to be on a never ending merry go round which is becoming slightly tedious, so i'll try to make this the last post.............
It is very hard to resist responding just once more though:
All vaccines including this one carry risk.
FFS as has been clearly demonstrated, there are no proven side effects specific to the H1n1 vaccine, I never said there want risk, only that the risk from Swine flu far outweighs that of the vaccine?
Swine flu deaths to date =?
Influenza (of any sort) Vaccine caused deaths =?
What is your possible justification for forcing people to have it? Thats the case you have not made. Yes there is advice that front line NHS staff should have hit - that falls a long way short of your position that all front line staff must be forced to have it or lose their jobs.
because the pros so far outweigh the cons, (i wont repeat them) that forcing people to have it is better than the effects of some misplaced groundless fear.
Frankly I cannot believe people are thinking of not having it, this is what frustrates me?
Your wife is immunocompromised. However she is far more at risk from other infections than this rare and not serious variant on flu.
please dont lecture me on my wifes condition, I assure you i am better informed.
To a point we can minimise risk from other infections in the home, as can health care professionals, the whole point of my argument is that in my opinion refusing the vaccine is adding unnecessary risk of airborne infection when she goes to the hospital.
It is potentially serious for her, as she has no immune response to Pneumonia bugs, she has minimal response to other types of infection.
Who are you to comment on the potential danger to her?
The scale and severity of the outbreak of swine flu in no way validates your reaction to it - thats why I call you hysterical and paranoid.
My reaction? I beg to differ, surely it is pure logic?
CDC and NHS suggest that vaccination will save lives and is safe, they single out an area of staff (frontline workers) with increased potential impact, and offer them a currently scarce and potentially life saving vaccination.
Without evidence these people refuse it, potentially endangering lives?
yes I would sack them, and employ people more well adjusted to care for others.
The scale and severity of the outbreak: its not dropping em in the streets, but i'll stick with the advice of the CDC and NHS thanks.
My reaction may sound panicky to you but Lauras consultant has voiced real concern over this issue, so whilst it is not a particular danger to you or indeed other healthy people, it is to her.
[b]The "forcing people to have it" issue was really secondary to the "why wouldnt they want it" question?[/b]
you have seized on that point like a little angry nhs terrier, drop it and satisfactorily explain why a sane person wouldnt want the vaccine, which i think 4 pages ago was the original question.
You simply do not grasp the point.
With little objective evidence that vaccination of all healthcare workers will make any difference?My reaction? I beg to differ, surely it is pure logic?
You are over reacting to this threat because of your circumstances. Swine flu is not a major serious epidemic
I did not lecture you on your wifes condition. It is a simple fact tho that there are more serious and more easily caught healthcare acquired infections and other infections out there. Is your wife particularly susceptible to flu viruses?
What yuo fail to understand is the limited usefulness of these immunisations and the small odds of infection. I simply see it as an expensive waste of time to inoculate people who are not high risk when there is no benefit from doing so.
You really need to calm down and have a real objective look at this. Many healthcare professionals have real doubts about the wisdom and effectiveness of this inoculation campaign.
[i]....they single out an area of staff (frontline workers)...[/i]
I think TJ's about as far from frontline as you can be and still claim to be a healthcare worker 😆
...expensive waste of time to inoculate people who are not high risk when there is no benefit from doing so.
Arguably, given that the low R[size=1]0[/size] number of H1N1 has already been mention, then a potential benefit would be a first step towards [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity ]Herd Immunity[/url]. Though we'd need to get a lot more vaccine out to the general public too.
because the pros so far outweigh the cons, (i wont repeat them) that forcing people to have it is better than the effects of some misplaced groundless fear.
You really think so? My right to self determination means so little to you? The evidence that inoculating healthcare workers will make a difference to infection rates is far from strong
Without evidence these people refuse it, potentially endangering lives?yes I would sack them, and employ people more well adjusted to care for others.
How offensive is that. You - an amateur should have the right to decide that people should be given medication under threat of losing their jobs?
Nobody in the Dept of Health thinks that - they are not even pushing the vaccine that hard FFS.
why did i click refresh? why? why?
because I am caught in tandemjeremys evil web of argumentivity (is that a word?)
I am perfectly calm by the way 🙂 see i have a smily face!
oh well its better than watching paul o grady....
TJ please forget about the forced vaccination thing, its ok, calm down, I really think you are getting far too wound up about this particular point...
What yuo fail to understand is the limited usefulness of these immunisations and the small odds of infection. I simply see it as an expensive waste of time to inoculate people who are not high risk when there is no benefit from doing so.
Then for gods sake educate me? Please elaborate what you know that the CDC doesnt?
[b]Benefits as already mentioned so, very many times[/b]
herd immunity as mentioned above, (and by others including me on page 1 or 2)
protection from infection/ possible complication
minimising potential impact from absences from work on the NHS and other industry....
[b]Negatives[/b]
potential for mild sniffles
mild localised egg intolerance
anything else?
I am sorry - I simply don't know how to explain it better.
Vaccination of healthcare workers is being done with little evidence that it will do any good, the vaccines are not anywhere close to !00% effective, for me at least they are very unpleasant to have ( a couple of days of fever resulting in time off work), the benefits of vaccinating all healthcare staff is marginal an unproven at best, I am not at increased risk of being a vector for transmission or of side effects - the checkout staff in sainsburys are more likely vectors for example - want to compulsorily vaccinate them?
This is not evidence led medicine - its tabloid led.
TJ: out of interest, how do you feel about vaccines in general?
For instance, the measles vaccine isn't 100% effective either (few vaccines are) and it can have unpleasant side effects too (as can most vaccines). Have you had that?
Just trying to figure if you're generally against mass vaccination or just H1N1?
This is not evidence led medicine - its tabloid led.
Aren't the tabloids the ones hinting that the vaccine isn't safe?
Graham - not a huge fan of vaccinations in general - they have their place but I do feel we over vaccinate our population. Its a whole 'nother question tho. I am vaccinated for some stuff but not others. Some I have natural immunity so don't need vaccination. Some I am prepared to accept the risks. My decision based on evidence.
The media have made more of the swine flu epidemic than the risks really are and the government are reacting ( to some extent) to teh percieved risk rather than the actual ones
Some I am prepared to accept the risks
But you also understand that many vaccines require a certain take up rate within the population to be effective. So that by refusing some vaccines and "accepting the risks" you are potentially making that decision for all of us?
Doesn't that rather turn your "right to self determination" argument on its head? 🙂
[size=1](a hypothetical Devil's Advocate point to think about, rather than a deadly serious assertion BTW. I do agree that you have the right to choose what goes into your body)[/size]
A greater good for the greater number argument - makes for an interesting philosophical debate.
I am not sure that I am missing any vaccinations where this would be an issue - Measles and Mumps I have natural immunity having caught them as a kid, Rubbella I am vaccinated for. ( Interestingly only offered as children to females of my generation. TB vaccinated for.
Not enough people are being vaccinated with eh swine flu vaccine to get herd immunity From what I know
God TJ, can't believe your nonsense spouting has suckered me in again 😉
Vaccination of healthcare workers is being done with little evidence that it will do any good, the vaccines are not anywhere close to !00% effective
If you actually look, you'll see from the clinical trials that the seroprotection rate after 2 doses is pretty close to 100% - which is irrelevant because if enough people get the vaccine it doesn't need to be.
[url= http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00050577.htm ]I'm sure you know better than the CDC[/url] and people who have made their careers studying epidemiology so I'll not point out the fact that most of what you say sounds 'Tabloid led' rather than 'evidence led'.
During the last flu panic (H5N1) the DOH did the same thing and ordered massive stocks of vaccine to be produced - they didn't start a mass vaccination program that time though did they? So maybe they looked at the evidence being produced by the WHO and looked at what every other country in the world is doing as well?
Not enough people are being vaccinated with eh swine flu vaccine to get herd immunity From what I know
Its easy to make a vaccine (the principles are very basic and well understood), however, its not so easy to make enough of it! The recommended approach is start with at-risk groups, then those most in contact with at-risk groups, then get to the rest once you've got enough to go around.
But I'm sure you knew all this and you're not just trolling are you 😉
Graham S
when they had given the swine Flu jab a few years back in America
One person became disabled in around Six hours, some people had serious
side effects and some woman that was pregnant had deformed babys
This was on a Panorama program, early this year just after they had
came up with this vaccine
Regarding the jab they gave our Army is the one in the Gulf war
and the Americans gave to there Army but the Americans gave them
compensation where we have not in any way owned up to it.
Regarding the Jab for children I was refering to the MMR Jab.
Again complications and again will not take the blame
So will not become a Mass Guinea pig on this one.
[i]Again complications and again will not take the blame[/i]
If you mean Autism then your behind a bit as it was proven there was no link and the initial report had altered figures.
I'm now curious about Hagi he has only posted in here and has never revealed his profession or interest in this?
Tim - your concerns for your wife are justified but to suggest any front line staff refusing to be sacked is way over the top and chances are illegal.
when they had given the swine Flu jab a few years back in America
One person became disabled in around Six hours, some people had serious
side effects and some woman that was pregnant had deformed babys
What swine flu jab were they giving in the US "a few years back" given that the current pandemic was only identified in Mexico in April this year?
Are you talking about [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swine_influenza#1976_U.S._outbreak ]the 1976 outbreak, where 48,161,019 Americans were immunised and [u]25[/u] people were killed as a result of Guillain-Barré Syndrome[/url]? ([url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19356614 ]which is a known, 0.7 in a million side effect of vaccination[/url]).
Regarding the jab they gave our Army is the one in the Gulf war
and the Americans gave to there Army but the Americans gave them
compensation where we have not in any way owned up to it.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_syndrome ]The cause of Guld War Syndrome is currently unknown.[/url] There are several possible factors including simultaneous exposure to nerve gas inhibitors, pesticides, oil well fires, chemical weapons, depleted uranium and [u][i]possibly[/i][/u] some components of the anthrax vaccine (though several studies have concluded there is no link).
Regarding the Jab for children I was refering to the MMR Jab.
Again complications and again will not take the blame
Really? What complications? Where?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy ]There was a [i]possible[/i] link with Autism suggested in the conclusions of [u]one[/u] study of [u]12[/u] children[/url], the lead author of which not only received £55,000 from lawyers trying to sue vaccine makers, but also held a patent on a rival vaccine and [url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article565188.ece ]currently faces 11 charges of professional misconduct by the GMC[/url].
10 of the original 12 authors have retracted this conclusion after it was discovered that the figures were altered and many, many [url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12421889 ]subsequent studies of far larger sample groups of vaccinated children have found absolutely no link with autism[/url].
Graham S LOL Percentages typical of a goverment T-wat!
These are Peoples Lives and of loved ones and family members
If this Vaccine is safe or any other vaccine/drug come to that.
Then there should be no more than a mild head ache or of similar.
Not say several deaths or any deaths nore deffects or
deformed or anything else comes to that.
So if you think your Death rate is only a statistic and very happy
with that!
Then I really do hope that you or a member of your family
fall down and die from it and see you defend and stand by your waste full
percentage of Human Life.
The cause of the Gulf Syndrome IS known and thats why the American
goverment paid up has there troops was in the same place and exposed with the same atmosphere and given the same drug. Funny that!
Again you talk about percentages as just numbers
These little percentages are Human beings so your talking Crap
A Death is not a side effect, A deformed or disfigured person
or persons is not a side effect.
This is clearly the markings of a failed vaccine/drug.
If these failed dugs/vaccines are side effects why did these
companys pay out.
Graham S LOL Percentages typical of a goverment T-wat!
I have nothing to do with the government.
If this Vaccine is safe or any other vaccine/drug come to that.
Then there should be no more than a mild head ache or of similar.
Not say several deaths or any deaths nore deffects or
deformed or anything else comes to that.
Fair enough, but if you want to only use drugs that are 100% safe and have no known side-effects worse than a headache then I'm afraid you will have to reject practically all known medicine. Even paracetamol kills people.
In the less black-and-white world of reality, it comes down to a balance of risks. So a 0.7 in a million risk of death might be considered reasonable if it prevents an infection that kills 1 in 100. That's just the nature of medicine. Sorry if that offends you.
I really do hope that you or a member of your family
fall down and die from it and see you defend and stand by your waste full
percentage of Human Life.
Well that's not very nice now is it? 😐
The cause of the Gulf Syndrome IS known
It is? Oh that's great news. What did they decide it was in the end?
Or do you just mean the [URL= http://www.gulfweb.org/doc_show.cfm?ID=815 ]US congressional panel report[/URL] that reckoned it was probably a combination of anti-nerve gas agents and pesticides, but wanted a fund of 60 million dollars annually to continue research?
Like Drac I can get the vaccine in approximately 10 days time.
However, as I have been in close contact (thanks NHS Direct :evil:) with at least 20 people probably suffering from flu/swine flu over the past couple of months, isn't it a case of shutting the gate after the horse has bolted ?
The biggest joke was that an A+E Department, in a hospital which shall remain nameless, was sending suspected swine-flu suffers out of the waiting room in A+E to stand in the corridor and wait for a taxi or lift home. The corridor just happened to be the main route into the hospital for patients arriving by ambulance and they were standing directly outside 'resus'. Genius 😯
Same here Woody introduced to now at least half a dozen times, most recent being just last night. So far not had caught it but going to have the vaccine anyway.
Grantway is now classed as the most pathetic person on this forum and should really be ashamed at his comment towards GrahamS.
How Drac Now hes been totaled has one of hes calculated ALL OK
Percentages he goes all human.
Congratulations on bringing up MMR, it was only a matter of time...
And back to the OP
I kind of thought that the vaccine for healthcare workers as potential vectors was only a part of the story, the other side of it is to reduce possible sickness absence should H1N1 cause an influx of inpatients during the usual winter pressures period.
Thanks Drac.
How Drac Now hes been totaled has one of hes calculated ALL OK
Percentages he goes all human.
I keep re-reading this sentence, but I've got no idea what it means?
As I said, I'm sorry if looking at the numbers behind the relative risks upsets you.
No one is claiming that a person dying from an adverse reaction to some drug is anything short of a terrible tragedy for those involved.
But you do have to have a little bit of cold perspective and decide if the benefits outweigh the risks (which is one of the central themes of this thread).
Don't forget that an "adverse reaction" to peanuts kills around 10 people every year in the UK, but we don't generally consider them to be unsafe.
Long thread.
I'm having it. It won't neessarily protect me from something bad, as it's portrayed as a mild illness, generally. But as one of the frontliners dealing with immunosupressed diabetics, and lots of old biddies, with multiple co-morbidities, I feel it my duty try to help to protect them. Even if I don't have time to fully read into, or understand all of the ins and outs of it.
I also like being offered a biscuit after a jab.
Does anyone understand grantways posts?
Tinman - IMO that is the main thrust - to reduce potential sick leave.
Woody - situations like that are a part of my argument - there are much better public health measures that would reduce transmission risks that are not being done. a ban on all hospital visitors would be one or example and screening of all suspected Swine flu cases away from the district general hospitals.
Public health measures are effective and cheap - just not very glamorous and do make profits for drug companies.
cholera was not defeated by vaccination - it was defeated by the Victorian sewer works.
Vaccination has its place but I do not believe that blanket vaccination of health service workers is either needed or cost effective. Many other groups of workers could be vectors as well and might be more likely that many health service workers.
With half a million health service workers thats a lot of vaccine - IMO that would be better used giving it to at risk people.
I'm now curious about Hagi he has only posted in here and has never revealed his profession or interest in this?
I'm a long time lurker, I did post a few times in singletrack v1 under a different name but never got round to registering again.
As for my profession its not really relevant to the argument so I never mentioned it. But I'm actually a director in a pharmaceutical company 😈 woohahaha 😈 - I'm not really 😀
My real gripe and reason for posting on here is that most people arguing against mass vaccination are getting things the wrong way round.
By starting from the assumption that they are correct and that the experts are wrong their argument is pretty weak and hard to justify.
If they instead assumed that the people who have spent their lives studying this are correct, but there is a possiblity they could be wrong and trying to work out if there is any evidence to back up their niggling doubts then perhaps their argument would be a bit more convincing.
As it is, the only valid reason for not taking it that I've heard is for people who are known to have bad reactions or suffer allergies.
Just had it, no biscuit tho.
Hagi - my point is in part that actually people who want all healthcare workers vaccinated are getting it the wrong way round.
Its not for me to show why I do not want the vaccination - its for those who want me vaccinated to show why it is needed. The evidence is weak IMO.
The only valid reason for not wanting it is you don't want it - self determination remeber?
I have not
starting from the assumption that they are correct and that the experts are wrong
I started from the proposition " pursuade me this is a good idea" and they have not.
Its up to the pro vaccinators to prove their case - its not up to me to justify not having it. I am not saying its a waste of time - I am saying use the targetting effectivly and cost effectivly. The vaccine is in short supply - why waste a dose? let alone thousands of doses.
Hagi - my point is in part that actually people who want all healthcare workers vaccinated are getting it the wrong way round.Its not for me to show why I do not want the vaccination - its for those who want me vaccinated to show why it is needed. The evidence is weak IMO.
The worlds leading experts in immunology and epidemiology disagree with you. You keep claiming the evidence is weak they don't agree.
The only valid reason for not wanting it is you don't want it - self determination remeber?
That isn't a valid reason - not taking it just because you don't want it can have a very real impact on the effectiveness of the vaccination program and can cost lives. I'm very happy for people to opt out if they can justify their reasons for doing so.
The vaccine is in short supply - why waste a dose? let alone thousands of doses.
I agree with this point - until we can manufacture enough doses to offer it to everybody, it needs to be targetted at those most at risk, and then those likely to contact at risk groups.
Just had it, no biscuit tho.
Not even a pink wafer, thats lame!
it needs to be targetted at those most at risk, and then those likely to contact at risk groups.
And more importantly, those who we need to be fit and well to effectively treat those who aren't.
Physician, heal thyself and all that.
Not even a pink wafer, thats lame!
The biscuit is probably as big an allergy risk as the jab 😀
"The vaccine is in short supply - why waste a dose? let alone thousands of doses."I agree with this point - until we can manufacture enough doses to offer it to everybody, it needs to be targetted at those most at risk, and then those likely to contact at risk groups.
Which does not include me!
Not frontline staff, so no.
Which does not include me!
Indeed - if you read my posts I agreed with you somewhere back on page 1 or 2. 🙂
so why give me such a hard time about not having it then?
I also strongly believe that people have the right to refuse medical treatment and any compulsory or coerced treatment needs a far greater threat and level of proof of need than we currently have.
so why give me such a hard time about not having it then?
Care to point me to where I have?
I also strongly believe that people have the right to refuse medical treatment
Indeed they do - but when their actions can directly affect the health of others then I believe they should be able to justify why before they choose not to.
coerced treatment needs a far greater threat and level of proof of need than we currently have.
Nobody is being coerced yet (at least not in the UK anyway).
so why give me such a hard time about not having it then?
You could have just said a simple 'no' and walked away 😉
As for compulsory treatment, the list of diseases I needed vaccinations for (or show immunity to) as part of my terms of employment were tetanus, TB, anthrax, hepA, hepB and rabies - fortunately not all at once 😯
It was a case of want the job, have the jab and I had no problem with that at all, there are rights far more precious to me than to be able refuse treatment (as part of my job) which will protect my health and limit disease transmission.......
No biscuit here either 😥 I'd have had it twice for a pink wafer!
hilldodger - Memberso why give me such a hard time about not having it then?
You could have just said a simple 'no' and walked away
One day I will learn. Maybe
One day I will learn. Maybe
but you love it really don't you - and so do we 😉
If everyone agreed how dull life would be !!!
LOL Tandem Whos picking on you
Thing is this rush for frontline is prety pointless
has to what one calls Frontline.
What about the porter that takes you in and around the hospital
Also they can normaly be partime and serve more than onne hospital and upto the amount of Hostpitals within that borough.
What about the Maintanence crews that work in all the hospitals within that borough, so they have to go between hospitals.
Also what about the Contacted out workman/woman who maintain and build.
And then you have the Doctors etc who do the same rounds from one hospital to the next.
The frontline now I regard more is the Porters and Maintenace crews and builders
has these you will find mix amongst and travel with the people who are more to have the Swine Flu in the first place.
But my personal and honest oppinion I will not have the Vaccine
and thats from most of the Pharmacys I know within London and the Doctors and Nurses I know too.
But as important as those people are grantway (the Hostpitals porters, Maintanence crews and the Contacted out workman/woman), it's the Doctors and Nurses that will actually be treating people that are the most essential.
Without them there is no hospital.
So that's why they would generally get one of the first waves of vaccine in any pandemic.
