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You have to take the rear seat back out (a two minute job with a screw driver) to get two 27" MTBs in with the wheels out and seat posts down. The salesman was most amused when we did this in the showroom as the final test before signing for one.
There's the same problem with type approval in France but you can get things type approved with a "passage aux mines". I've no idea if the tender sellers have gone through that formality. The short answer according to my renault dealer is: no roof racks, no tow ball, strap on racks tolerated.
You have to take the rear seat back out (a two minute job with a screw driver) to get two 27″ MTBs in with the wheels out and seat posts down.
Oh, well that's ok then, that's not at all inconvenient. I bet he wouldn't have been amused if you were on your way back from a muddy ride.
Where do you put the rear seats? On the roof rack you can't have?
Assuming you store your MTBs somewhere you just put the seat back where the MTBs were. Use old blankets to protect the interior. I'd rather spend a few minutes dismantling my bikes than have to clean them after a journey through salt spray. Besides putting them on the roof or behind would create drag and noise ruining that perfect EV experience.
So that’s a ‘err, nothing you can afford then’ eh?
Today, the point is it's what is there today, there are a big range of these things coming.
The biggest issue for people is going to be the actual mindset change, owning a depreciating asset like a car will become a thing of the past. Lease is becoming the norm, wait until the variable lease plan comes out or a hire car subscription. Got a weekend away in Feb coming up, just booked a new transit for the weekend, I'll probably nip to the supermarket in the car club Aygo one day this week and get a golf or similar when I nip down to see some mates in a couple of weeks.
edit not the right thing I was looking at
Where do you put the rear seats? On the roof rack you can’t have?
you must be that guy in the meetings..... 😉 little lateral thinking is all you need, I always leave the parcel shelf for the hire car beside the door just in case I forget to put it back in!!
The guy who points out all the obvious flaws in a plan that the fanbois won't acknowledge? Yep, that's me.
The whole car lease thing will be trickle down; there will still be loads of people who have no choice other than owning a car because they can't afford to get on the lease ladder.
Lease prices are based on residuals. What do you think will happen to those residuals as the demand for the used cars drops? What will happen to the lease costs?
As I've already said, I'm in favour of EVs but I want one that's as useful as my current car all the time, not 90% of it.
Here’s 2.5 years of actual costs for my i3:
Bought s/h in September 2016 for £16,250, we done about 15k miles in it and costs over those 2.5 years have been:
...
Depreciation over 2.5 years; £250 (Estimated Value today: ~£16,000)
What you have kind of done is car version of the housing bubble!
2 years ago I was looking at T5's, Leafs, i3's, 5 series tourers and E-classe estates. I went for the most practical car for my needs at the time (E250 estate). At the time Leafs were plummeting in value, lots coming off lease deals and the data was showing it to the most depreciating car ever.
Everyone was so afraid of battery degradation and being able to charge etc. 2 years on and the values have been pretty much flat and cars are selling for the same but with 2 years more mileage.
When the current, much improved EVs, get to a couple of years old the gen 1 cars will drop again and be a good purchase. I really like how you can instantly check the condition of Leaf batteries. You can't exactly do that with the engine on a used car.
I really wish I had got a Leaf or i3 now...we have had some great holidays in the merc and no other car would have carried so much stuff or done so so effortlessly (60mpg up to Buxton, 52mpg up to Keswick with a canadian canoe and 2 mtb on the roof). rwd has been a blast and the pirellis that were about half worn when I got it lasted 20k even with regular sideways action.
an i3 range extender would be perfect for me at the moment. We have had EV charging at the science park were we are based for about 6 years now but there is only a few spaces, they are the other side of the complex so spotting when they are free is a pain and they charge £5 for a charge. What we need is EV charging at cost price in our works car park, then I wouldnt have the problem with needing just about 10 miles more range to be comfortable, or 20 miles more to let me pop to the shops on the way home.
I always leave the parcel shelf for the hire car beside the door just in case I forget to put it back in!!
My car has clips on the seat backs to secure the tonneau cover so I can still use the luggage net if I need to and so I can keep it in the car secure in the knowledge that it won't try and join me in the front. 😀
As I’ve already said, I’m in favour of EVs but I want one that’s as useful as my current car all the time, not 90% of it.
That becomes the real point of change, why won't you change? Why live with something that is not right 90% of the time if there are good options for the 10%? What if the combination version is better value that the one vehicle option?
The whole car lease thing will be trickle down; there will still be loads of people who have no choice other than owning a car because they can’t afford to get on the lease ladder.
Lease prices are based on residuals. What do you think will happen to those residuals as the demand for the used cars drops? What will happen to the lease costs?
Ultimately a tier 2 and 3 lease system for used cars, a better recycling and scrapping system which could lead to safer roads and vehicles on them. Ultimately a massive reduction in personal car ownership.
The guy who points out all the obvious flaws in a plan that the fanbois won’t acknowledge? Yep, that’s me.
The other option is to try and think of a solution before claiming it's a problem. Some of them are really simple and just require a tiny but of behavioural change. Like the one about putting the seats in the place where you took the bikes from, easy and simple.
Doomaniac seems to be the guy in the meeting who assumes noone has thought of the obvious when in fact we have, cos it's obvious, and are already talking about solutions and mitigations. You know, the one who just goes on about the problems as if his sole aim is to make you acknowledge them as insoluble so we can all go home and carry on doing what we were before, nice and easy.
No. I'm the bloke in the meeting who is the poor sod who has to deal with the customer and explain why the expensive solution is only 90% effective when the cheap one would have been 100%.
As it stands, there isn't an affordable EV that suits mt perceived needs. If I buy an EV to replace my £10k (if I'm lucky) estate car, it will have a higher capital cost and require that I hire a suitable vehicle every time I want to go mountain biking, thus negating (at best) any saving I may make in running the vehicle.
As soon as there is 5 series sized EV I can afford I'll be in like flynn, but until then I'll let the early adopters foot the development bill.
You know, the one who just goes on about the problems as if his sole aim is to make you acknowledge them as insoluble so we can all go home and carry on doing what we were before, nice and easy.
As soon as there is 5 series sized EV I can afford I’ll be in like flynn, but until then I’ll let the early adopters foot the development bill.
Nailed it Molgrips.
Yeah I think we're still a few years off EV's becoming affordable to most people, not everyone wants a small quirky-looking car (about the only choice for sub £30k EVs now). Ofc EVs will never be the best solution for everyone but that's no reason for them not to become the most common type of car that's purchased. Hands up on here if you live in Australia and regularly need to drive 200+ miles? ffs stop with that BS.
I think there will be an awkward time in 4-5 years when decent range/size EVs hit the £30-40k range and (especially with leasing) become affordable to a lot more people than the EV infrastructure can cope with. Ofc that infrastructure could be rapidly enhanced but not without a lot of investment and I can't see that keeping pace unless the government helps in a significant way.
We also need a big leap in battery technology, lithium-ion is a bit of a dead end, they can improve efficiency a bit more but there needs to be something new to really push things on (at least there's billions going into battery R&D these days) otherwise we'll all be wondering in 10 years why we didn't go down the hydrogen fuel cell route.
"Quirky-looking"? Really? The Juke is quirky and the Clio swaging a bit odd, I prefer the EV looks.
I wouldn't say Zoe's are particularly quirky looking. Small, yes, but not quirky. You can get a [url= https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/kangoo-ze/models-prices/business.html ]base Kangoo ZE 33 for under £22.5k including VAT[/url]. Not as good range on it granted but the maxi or crew cab (with moveable bulkhead) caters to the Berlingo crowd, you just need to add glazing and you're good to go. Turns out you can fit a towbar too.
ED- The Leaf is more Micra-like than that anaphylactic monstrosity! (but agree with your point)
Read an interesting thing about the use of capacitors in EVs. Let them handle the high regen/discharge element of braking and accelerating as that's what damages the L ion batteries. They can then just be used for more steady state running with resulting increases in range and longevity.
The Juke is quirky and the Clio swaging a bit odd, I prefer the EV looks.
Lack of reading fail. On my part.
I like cars and have previously not really been interested in EV’a but I’m definitely coming round to the idea. I’m seriously contemplating replacing my company car (vRS) with an i3 if it’s stull in the company car list. I had a spin in a colleague’s range extender and really liked it. I do have my reservations though...
Just turning the day nav / media on reduced the range.
Turning the heating on kills the range. Not an issue in the morning because it can be conditioned ready to drive to work. The return journey won’t work out like that.
My round trip to work is 60 miles, 100 miles or so if I pop to Cannock for a ride on the way home. So largely doable.
It’s the stuff outside of this that worries me; visiting family I have in Sheffield, Chipping Norton, Beaconsfield, Brighton all of whom I see reasonably regularly. None of those trips could be done on a single charge.
It’s be rubbish for bike trips too; Revo, Stiniog, FOD, CYB etc. None of which are that far or require a pit stop.
If I can afford to take the i3 as a second car for my other half and buy myself something else I’ll almost definitely do it. It’s suit her driving to a T which is short trips to work and dropping the boy off at school.
Talking to my colleague who has one, he says the charging in public is not as easy as it sounds because of the number of companies running the charging points, some of which need a monthly subscription.
My other fear is that as a company car driver, I’m at the mercy of the giver changing the way that the cars are taxed which will happen as money from VED and fuel tax is lost. It’s burnt me on my current car.
Lack of reading fail. On my part.
No fail, the text wasn't there when you looked at the post. I only added it with an edit when I'd got all the pics to work. The preview feature was handy for that.
Talking to my colleague who has one, he says the charging in public is not as easy as it sounds because of the number of companies running the charging points, some of which need a monthly subscription.
I've not found that an issue Charge Your Car covers a massive network and is £10 per annum. The service station at Sterling was the only place I've encountered that was the exception. Downloading the app for that company and paying just for the charge solved it.
Seems the current i3 isn't an option for you I'd look at others are what's coming.
Talking to my colleague who has one, he says the charging in public is not as easy as it sounds because of the number of companies running the charging points, some of which need a monthly subscription.
He's right. Get on zap-map, Chargemap and read EV forums to find which companies provide reliable fast chargers on the routes you use to see how feasable the journies are.
Edit: I see Drac already has a suggestion (which I've noted, ta Drac). I'll add Podpoints which are are often free and controlled by a mobile app - but only 3 or 7KW in many cases.
If I can afford to take the i3 as a second car for my other half and buy myself something else I’ll almost definitely do it. It’s suit her driving to a T which is short trips to work and dropping the boy off at school.
Get a used Zoe or Leaf then.
It could be luck of course but like I say I’ve not found an issue. I’ve only actually paid for the charge a handful of times as or free to use too.
He’s right. Get on zap-map, Chargemap and read EV forums to find which companies provide reliable fast chargers on the routes you use to see how feasable the journies are.
Jeeez, and the ev proponents wonder why everyone hasn't bought an ev yet ?
If I have to go digging around on forums to work out where to charge my car for a given long journey then you can forget ev's.
Don't get me wrong I think ev's are the future,but we're a good few years away from them being acceptable for a good proportion of potential users.
We've just bought a new (used)car, went for deisel (shock horror) , ev just isn't mature enough yet for me. Will revisit the ev car question again in 5-10 years.
If I have to go digging around on forums to work out where to charge my car for a given long journey then you can forget ev’s.
You don’t.
We’ve just bought a new (used)car, went for deisel (shock horror) , ev just isn’t mature enough yet for me. Will revisit the ev car question again in 5-10 years.
Next Gen then just like the thread title.
You don’t
Hmm educator said I did have to do that...
Until I can just get in the car and type the destination into the sat Nov and go ,and then get there in a similar time frame to the same journey in a regular car, ev's are not going to cut it - for me
Until I can just get in the car and type the destination into the sat Nov and go ,and then get there in a similar time frame to the same journey in a regular car, ev’s are not going to cut it – for me
How frequent are you 200+ mile journeys?
Hmm educator said I did have to do that…
Until I can just get in the car and type the destination into the sat Nov and go ,and then get there in a similar time frame to the same journey in a regular car, ev’s are not going to cut it – for me
You don't need to though, it may make things easier having some preplanned route but it's not essential.
Yes that's why I'm hybrid this time as it just wasn't quite there, the next gen ones coming out in this and following years are looking like that will be much easier and likely.
Jerez, and the ev proponents wonder why everyone hasn’t bought an ev yet ?
Try reading the thread form start to finish. That's exactly what the EV owners are not wondering. We're being helpful, honest and pragmatic, recognise the limits and would like to see better infrastructure ourselves.
As for buying a diesel. If you are aware of the issues, aware of the excess deaths diesel polluiton creates, aware of the impact of climatic change on poor populaiotns around the world: then buy a diesel because you're too lazy to spend a few minutes researching charge points before starting a journey you've never done before... well who do you see in the mirror?
If you've enough time to waste slagging off EVs on this forum you've got more than enough time to check out where to charge your car.
How frequent are you 200+ mile journeys?
Not very,once a month maybe.but why would I choose to own ( or lease etc) a car that costs more than what I have now, but actually unable to do all the same jobs as my current car.i don't want the hassle of hiring a different car for when I want to do a different journey type. I just want to get in the car that is on my drive and go.
Don't worry I'm not going to carry on this argument as I won't be able to convince you of my point of view and you won't convince me of yours.
Ev's will be the future, mainly once the infrastructure matures,but right now we're still in the early adopter phase.
Get a used Zoe or Leaf then.
I don’t want one though. I actually like the i3. It’s a bit odd looking but that’s part of its charm. I like the fact that BMW have tried to go full eco with it (built in a different factory using renewable energy, recycled materials etc).
Did anyone see the article in Autocar last month about the possibility of the government using the home charging points as a way to monitor use / tax you on it? A chap from Pod Point agreed that it’s possible. The government responded saying that they have no intention at the moment to do so, but I guess if enough people change then they’ll do something.
I like the fact that BMW have tried to go full eco with it (built in a different factory using renewable energy, recycled materials etc).
Toyota did that with the MkII Prius too.
but why would I choose to own ( or lease etc) a car that costs more than what I have now, but actually unable to do all the same jobs as my current car.
Cos of all the environmental reasons Edukator states...?
Did anyone see the article in Autocar last month about the possibility of the government using the home charging points as a way to monitor use / tax you on it?
Is this not more of an issue for the petrol & EV vehicles where people got a great tax incentive then never bothered to use the EV part of the car?
Or those who fitted on as "Hey! It's free I pay my taxes" then never bought a EV or Hybrid as they don't stop when driving 700 miles once a year.
Cos of all the environmental reasons Edukator states…?
They don't have a direct personal impact and a lot of people put them at a lower priority than their own costs (which is exactly why fixing environmental issues is so hard)
However, it could be fixed very easily - make EV cars cheaper that petrol equivalent model (government incentives) and you will suddenly see loads of them. With that will come more charging points, future cost of teh car coming down so incentives can be removed etc,.
The VED/fuel duty question is quite easy, make it mileage based between MOT's. Kills 2 birds with one stone - car users continue to pay into the system whilst ICE users could be charged at a higher rate (taking into account the environmental or geographical aspect) but essentially on a PAYG basis. Effect being more people switch to EV for regular journeys and the few that need or keep an ICE for less regular use aren't scrapping cars before the end of their useful life.
However, it could be fixed very easily – make EV cars cheaper that petrol equivalent model (government incentives) and you will suddenly see loads of them.
That's what they do with company cars - a lot of EVs, possiby the majority, are company cars I reckon.
That may be true but the vast majority of motorists aren't driving company cars. More is needed but targeted appropriately. C2W, cargo bike grants, affordable public transport etc.
affordable public transport etc.
Well my commute just got 40% cheaper this morning, can't fault TGFM Metro Value at the moment
the possibility of the government using the home charging points as a way to monitor use / tax you on it?
Lots of chargers installed with the OLEV grant already include monitoring, but I think it's since been abandoned since nobody could really think of what to do with the data.
Taxing isn't going to happen, and I'd be surprised if the podpoint chap didn't put some pretty big caveats on what he said.
One of the advantages of an EV is that electricity is everywhere; if the proper charger cost more I would just plug it into a normal socket instead, and there's little anyone can do to stop me unless we go seriously Big Brother. Or I would just get a charger without the OLEV grant if that grant was going to cost more in the long run.
People without their own charger at home are theoretically more at risk of something like this, but then you would have a crazy system where the less well off are more financially penalised than the well off.
And that would be crazy, and I'm sure no government would ever do that.
Right?
As for buying a diesel. If you are aware of the issues, aware of the excess deaths diesel polluiton creates, aware of the impact of climatic change on poor populaiotns around the world.
As others have mentioned, the pollution caused by EV vehicles is there, it's just geographically disconnected. There's still carbon and noxious gasses produced for the electricity.
Shall we get into the mining and production of the chemicals for batteries?
How about the fact that it's difficult to recycle - at present not enough capacity and the process is very manual and hazardous to health of the operators and locals.
Sorry, but I'm not buying the "New EV car is better for environment" compared to me running the old diesel as long as possible. (Yet)
Shall we get into the mining and production of the chemicals for batteries?
Try page 2, 3, 4 and maybe 6.
There is little point trying to persuade the sceptics/cynics on here that BEVs are a good idea (unless you like a good argument) because there are plenty of people out there that want one as evidenced by the demand for BEVs far outstripping current production. The affordable BEV (at least on a lease) with realistic range is here now in the shape of the Hyundai Kona and Kia eNero. As William Gibson said "The future is here now its just unevenly distributed"