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nice random figure.
Not really, £10,000 extra is about right. What would you put the EV premium at then?
An EV uses palastics sure, they're really hard to recycle just like those in an ICE car, harder than the lithium battery with a higher non recycled compnent even. What an EV doesn't use is:
6l/100km for say 200 000km = 12 000 litres of fuel = 8.5 tonnes of fuel. And all the fuel used to extract, refine and transport that fuel.
What it does use is electricity: you work out what your local energy mix is. As my solar panels cover all my domestic use and electric car home charging with some to spare I'm going to claim a tiny fraction of 8.5 tonnes.
I just copy pasted the first Google result
I know, that's the problem with just copying and pasting the first thing you see without checking your facts first.
If were having and oil versus lithium messiness battle try these
Not really, just pointing out that lithium mining is a shit show despite you trying to play it down. It's only one headline away.
An EV uses palastics sure
And tyres and grease etc. Still need that oil.
You've actually made some good objective points up till then.
What would you put the EV premium at then?
Next Gen are speculating the price will be around the same. Yes currently they can be a lot more but you can't just make a price up.
So what do you suggest I do, Squirrelking, make up my own heavily biased list or just choose one that's hanging around and doesn't look too contentious.
I make an effort to post with a little objectivity and you don't like it because you disagree with one thing on the list. Go on, what your top ten list of major environment disasters, let's see.
I'm a geologist so know a thing or two about mining shit shows and lithium is most definitely not a stand out. See that phone or computer in front of your nose, check out the raw materials used in its manufacture and how they are obtained. Messy huh, some really messy ones. and you're trying to demonise lithium.
If I were to make my own list I'd put excessive population expansion first, the oil industry second and war third.
EV's are too expensive......
Here's 2.5 years of actual costs for my i3:
Bought s/h in September 2016 for £16,250, we done about 15k miles in it and costs over those 2.5 years have been:
Electricity: (including charging and cabin preconditioning) £367.12
Road tax: £0
Servicing: £158 (1 main dealer inspection at 2 years old inc brake fluid change)
Insurance: -£128 (We added the i3 to our policy, and because our other car is a higher risk, the total policy cost per year actually came down!)
Depreciation over 2.5 years; £250 (Estimated Value today: ~£16,000)
Total costs: £647
which is £259 a year, or 4.3 pence per mile. To drive around in a brand new, carbon fibre, rear wheel drive, 5 star NCAP, quiet, comfy and relaxing car.
I seriously doubt you could even manage "shed" motoring for less. Of course, you need to have the cash to buy the car, but we did, and interest rates and investments have been so poor recently as to mean the cash wasn't earning anything in the bank anyway) Also worth noting that we have had to put a solar charger on our other car, simply because it doesn't actually get used, to the point where we are going to sell it, and just hire a car for the odd times once a month we need more range.
How much is battery rental for EV’s? That ex demo Renault linked on the previous page mentions battery rental but no indicative costs. Just curious.
To answer my own question, according to Renault, depending upon annual mileage and battery type, of which from what I can work out there are two, monthly rental cost ranges from £50 for <4,500 miles to £100 for 10,500 miles per annum. This price includes vat and breakdown assistance.
So factor in annual running costs of £600 to £1200, for the Zoe in the UK.
Interestingly, equivalent petrol costs at 10,000 miles per year at let’s say 60mpg and £1.30/litre come in at just under a grand. Which makes the EV more expensive to purchase and run, especially as most people won’t be in @Edukator’s position of their own photocells and need to purchase their electricity from the grid. Obviously there’s servicing costs and general common consumables, such and brakes and tyres but I was expecting a greater differential in favour of the EV rather than how these rudimentary numbers suggest.
Bottom line, it’s all about affordability for the common citizen and the balance an individual makes between what they feel is right for them and the planet and their bank balance.
Interestingly, equivalent petrol costs at 10,000 miles per year at let’s say 60mpg
Good luck with that.
If you genuinely average 60mpg over a full year in any ICE passenger car in the UK, then i:
1) take my hat off to you
and
2) Hope to god i never get stuck behind you
😉
How much is battery rental for EV’s? That ex demo Renault linked on the previous page mentions battery rental but no indicative costs. Just curious.
From £59/month for 4500 miles per year. Up to £110/month for unlimited miles.
https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-finance/battery-hire.html
I make an effort to post with a little objectivity and you don’t like it because you disagree with one thing on the list.
I was actually enjoying the objectivity, I've agreed with most of what you have posted however just because there hasn't been an environmental disaster connected with lithium mining yet doesn't mean there isn't the potential for one in the future. That is all my point is, it's not a which is worse top trumps pissing contest.
Go on, what your top ten list of major environment disasters, let’s see.
Well I'd put Winscale or Fukushima well above Tokaimura since it never had any environemtal release beyond localised radiation. The rest are fair enough. As I said before it just seemed like an odd inclusion and particularly stood out to me as I was familiar with the incident. That said if I was going to add one to your list it would be plastics as a cradle to grave example. Oh, and individualism where collectivism could make significant efficiency savings (mass transit, community energy etc.)
Yeah, okay, 60mpg is optimistic, let’s go with 45mpg at which, it’s £87 per year more in fuel than battery rental.
Not what I’d call a compelling differential.
I’m in no way opposed to EV’s, in fact I love the idea that we can move away from the daily burn of fossil fuels for personal transport, but this thread has opened my eyes as to how much further tech needs to progress and costs reduce to make it a viable option for the common person over and above the current ICE personal transport.
How much is battery rental for EV’s? That ex demo Renault linked on the previous page mentions battery rental but no indicative costs. Just curious.
If you Google the question the Renault page will pop up with the prices, it's staggered by annual milage obviously
or 4.3 pence per mile.
That’s pretty impressive. My hybrid (not a plug in) Auris gets 55mpg (lot of driving in traffic) which works out about 10p per mile in fuel.
If you Google the question the Renault page will pop up with the prices, it’s staggered by annual milage obviously
I did 😉 See above 🤗
EV’s are too expensive……
4.3 p per mile seems cheap to me 😃
I stated right from the outset that I haven't saved money (yet).
Petrol and battery lease + elctricity costs are about the same.
Zoé cost more than a similarly equiped and performing Clio, how much it's hard to say, 2000e ?
Insurance is about 150e a year cheaper.
At 105e/annum servicing is 150e a year cheaper for a basic service and there aren't the expensive items in future services you get with ICE engines.
Long term resale is an unknown as yet. I'm hoping that there's a leap in EV technology that makes the Zoé old hat and worthless (and all ICE cars too!) but I can't see that happening and depreciation rates on 41kWh Zoés are no worse than normal cars (which is why Molgrips still can't afford one).
Then there's the EV experience, people are happy to pay a premium for the BMW/Audi/Merc experience, I'm happy to pay a bit more (if I do) than a Clio for that electric wizz. Try one. Our local Renault dealers sell lots with the softest possible sell, they have them as courtesy cars.
Is thinking of this whole EV revolution, in terms of a like for like replacement for cars, doing it wrong?
There's different levels, obviously if you need to do 1000miles in one go, you'll still need a petrol car or whatever, I don't really see how that should particularly influence the development of EV's. Petrol cars can still exist for that, there's no need to completely eradicate petrol vehicles.
But on the more local level 10-50mi(even up to sub 200mi I guess), you need family cars, yes, but you also need personal transport, and on that level... Well cars are too big as it is, considering the amount of single people in single cars built for 4/5 people.
I'd think that within that though, there's a lot more room for diversification, something in between an electric bike and and electric car. Single transport vehicle where people can actually carry stuff?
That thinking would go someway to reducing congestion?
I guess there needs to be a fundamental mind shift for that kinda thing to happen, but are we not missing an opportunity here just focusing on, as mentioned, like for like replacement?
Yeah missed that when I was scanning back through 😉
So basically if your driving a very efficient car currently there is very little difference, if your not there will be. Unless you commute from Rural Texas to Alaska twice a week and holiday in remote bits of Queensland 🙂
To add to a comment I made earlier about converting older cars:
https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk
https://www.popsci.com/classic-cars-get-an-electric-upgrade-from-e-drive-retro
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/9997563/Convert-your-classic-car-to-battery-power.html
https://hackaday.com/2019/01/04/why-converting-classic-cars-to-electric-drive-is-a-thing/
https://dgit.com/10-awesome-ev-classic-car-conversions-8592/
https://axleaddict.com/cars/Is-converting-a-Classic-Car-to-Electric-the-future-of-owning-an-Icon
something in between an electric bike and and electric car.
😆
Got to be the Twizy
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy.html
Saw them being used as site cars at the Dusseldorf Messe, looks better than Clarksons effort!! Again you just need to get somewhere, stay dry and park easily? Perfect
Comparing ice vs EV running costs is fine at today's rates but What happens to the short/mid term future (inside your next ice vehicles purchase life) when you look at what may happen to the cost of fossil fuels.
Once governments stop fossil fuel subsidies and carbon taxes get serious..as EV adoption increases and there's less fossil fuel forecourt demand, some petrol stations close and the economies of scale mean price per litre goes up... How far up though and how significantly will that alter the ice math?
Battery tech is getting cheaper with more range and faster charging year on year, the charging networks will continue to grow.
I expect were at a tipping point where ice vs EV math won't apply beyond the lifespan of your next vehicle purchase.
Bought s/h in September 2016 for £16,250,
Lol yeah peanuts, let me just empty the gold sovereign jar I'm sure that'll cover it!
Are you aware that for some people a car purchase is £2k worth of small runabout? The idea that spending more than my wife's yearly salary on a car constitutes 'cheap' is pretty laughable. Regardless of the running costs, one still has to find d sixteen grand from somewhere. That's a lot. So yes, EVs are still expensive.
Are you aware that for some people a car purchase is £2k worth of small runabout? The idea that spending more than my wife’s yearly salary on a car constitutes ‘cheap’ is pretty laughable.
How old are these 2k runabouts you are looking at? What age EV are you comparing against? 2013 Zoe's are down to under 6k give it a few more years and the used volume will increase and prices drop.
Are you aware that for some people a car purchase is £2k worth of small runabout?
For many people £500-1000 is the maximum they’re prepared to spend on a car.
Even £6k for a 2013 Zoe would be impossible for many to afford, people on little more than minimum wage who have to drive to work, because there’s no alternative public transport and cycling just isn’t an option. There’s no way I could consider cycling nearly 16 miles to work, for example, and there’s no bus to Westbury at 5.30 in the morning, the time I’d have to leave to get to work for 7.00am.
Very true, but for comparison which is what really is what people are getting at, for that price you are spot on the money for a 2013 Fiesta
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=sponsored&radius=1500&postcode=m53fp&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&make=FORD&model=FIESTA&price-from=5500&price-to=6500
You need to wind another few years on to be getting down to the 1-2k market. Again that is down to the fact there are not many EV's of that age and at the lower starting point.
That will change as more of these filter through the system.
But seriously, lithium like any natural resource makes a bit of a mess when you mine it. Oil on the other hand makes a hell of a mess extracting it trasporting it and refining and screws up the climate when you burn it.
So at the moment mining lithium is making another mess, just less of a mess than we already have?
Three questions (cos I can't be arsed to trawl the thread &see if I can find the answers)
If i buy an EV do I really only rent the batteries, even though Iv'e bought the car?
What happens to any knackered batteries?
What vehicle would I need to pull my caravan up to Fort William in May without setting off 2 days before I need to get there. This may have been answered before but things may have changed.
Q1
Renault do a battery lease scheme which means you trade in the battery as performance drops, it's a clever scheme really as it removes the risk from you, others sell it as part of the car and you replace it when it's knackered. 2 Different model of ownership, it should help keep the used value of the Renault up as the 2nd/3rd owner doesn't need to worry how you used the battery.
Q2
The first batches of batteries from electric and hybrid vehicles are hitting retirement age, yet they aren’t bound for landfills. Instead, they’ll spend their golden years chilling beer at 7-Elevens in Japan, powering car-charging stations in California and storing energy for homes and grids in Europe.
Lithium-ion car and bus batteries can collect and discharge electricity for another seven to 10 years after being taken off the roads and stripped from chassis—a shelf life with significant ramifications for global carmakers, electricity providers and raw-materials suppliers.
Q3
Simple at the moment you either go for the EV pickup truck as your only vehicle or own the one that suits 90% of your driving and hire something you can tow with for the holiday. Having a car specced for your 5-10% uses means it's likely the wrong car/less efficient for your day to day needs.
Time to think of driving as an annual cost not a purchase price.
What vehicle would I need to pull my caravan up to Fort William in May without setting off 2 days before I need to get there.
A rented one.
Q3
Simple at the moment you either go for the EV pickup truck as your only vehicle or own the one that suits 90% of your driving and hire something you can tow with for the holiday. Having a car specced for your 5-10% uses means it’s likely the wrong car/less efficient for your day to day needs.
A rented one.
Shouldv'e mentioned that Ft Willy is probably the farthest we'd go in the UK but last year for instance we went away 10 times in the caravan & we fancy heading to the continent later this year with it (if wer'e allowed in that is) & probably for about 4 weeks, so renting anything everytime we wanted to go away would be expensive.
The Xtrail we tow it with is worth about 11-12K & does 45mpg all the time without the shed caravan on the back (then it does 29-31mpg)
What sensible EV for hauling a caravan that I could trade the Xtrail in for?
Well looks like the vehicle on page 1 right at the top would fit your needs for towing
Or trade it in for a motorhome....
Good to see the same protagonists harping on about what other people should do/own and change thier lifestyle to embrace new technology.... whilst those same people sit back and bark at others whilst doing nothing themselves.
Are you conservative MP’s per-chance?
Get with the programme.. 🤷♂️🧐
Looked at that Renault hire scheme, £110 a month for unlimited mileage (anything over 10k), assuming I kept it for 5 years that's £6600.
Now what's the actual cost of battery servicing?
I ask because although it appears to be quite a financial hurdle it may not be strictly necessary if you were to save the money yourself. It sounds nice but I have my own breakdown cover at about £50 per year so the other £105.83 per month could probably be tucked away. It's a risk, yes, but considering nobody else offers such insurance they must be pretty confident about the actual chances of someone having to claim on it.
That, plus even the notion of someone having the wherewithal to set up a hire fleet of battery trailers could be enough to convince a lot of people.
@mikewsmith
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-27/where-3-million-electric-vehicle-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire
seems to read in the future tense
"General Motors Co, BMW AG, Toyota Motor Corp, BYD Co and a clutch of renewable-energy storage suppliers are among those trying to create..."
" “The market will be enormous for second-life applications with storage.”"
"(Tesla) said its batteries probably won’t be suitable for a new task after 10 to 15 years of use, and it’s focusing on recovering the raw materials."
The difference in price between a Zoé with and without battery is 8900e in France. There's still no price for a replacement battery but you can bet it will be more than the difference. So do your sums and work out which is the best for you. My view is that when it comes to selling the lower price (because I paid less for it in the first place) and the fact the new owner doesn't have to worry about the state of the battery will make it more attractive. I suspect I'll be keeping it longer than originally intended, progress hasn't been as fast as I'd expected/hoped. Newer and slightly bigger models don't offer much more range and are much more expensive. I'll be interested to see what the soon-to-be-released high capacity Leaf sells for.
I've seen it being done already
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/for-dead-ev-batteries-reuse-comes-before-recycle/
Some examples there
Didn't somebody say earlier in the thread that the Zoe isn't type approved for a tow bar? How do you tow the battery trailer? And, somewhat relevant given this is ostensibly an MTB forum, how do you use tow ball mounted bike racks?
Is the Leaf TA for a tow bar? How about the Ampera?
I can’t tow with my hybrid suv either.
Some retard thinks it’s “not type approved”
Yey the UK.🤪🤷♂️
Just put it in the back 😉 or use the sucker racks
Anyway the tow batteries are a fun little addition, maybe the zoe isn't the best MTB car but others can be
So which is the best, affordable, MTB car?
Porsche Macan.
I said affordable, not cheap...
Well looks like the vehicle on page 1 right at the top would fit your needs for towing
Or trade it in for a motorhome….
So that's a 'err, nothing you can afford then' eh?