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With variable valve timing, turbos and higher gearing the inefficiencies due to valve overlap and high revs are pretty low at cruising speeds now, Molgrips.
Almost 18 months in of owning a hybrid has convinced me enough to go full EV on the next gen. The range has increasing massively and the charge times falling, VW are pushing out their mobile charge stations. They claim to charge the e-golf in 15 minutes, about the time it would take to stop for a pee on that annual trip to Aviemore.
Also making it shaped like a truck it stupid, it could get 50% more range if it were aero.
Unless of course you are trying to sell to a market that really likes trucks. Then not so stupid (business wise, at least).
We’ve taken the plunge in our household and had a second gen leaf for about a month now. Apart from occasional IT issues with its app, the ownership experience is shaping up to be phenomenal.
The engine to charge the battery idea is not efficient as it sounds.
I know for sure that a mid size family hatchback running as a series hybrid needs the same size engine as combustion engine only.
Ok the engine runs at peak efficiency but by the time you add up the extra manufacturing cost there's not much point.
It makes more and more sense as the car gets smaller so maybe just superminis etc will use this.
Now with 41 kWh I can’t see the point for something I’d use three times a year
Well, no, that's why we were proposing just having them available for hire rather than keeping them yourself. Probably better for the battery to get used regularly than sitting idle most of the time unless you had a suitable use for it the rest of the time.
In a petrol car there is a trade off between increased maximum power and efficiency at cruising speeds. In an EV there is not.
That’s why really fast petrol cars tend to be less economical.
Okay I see where you are coming from now.
Still not true for the reasons hols2 has given plus a biggie that was left out - weight. Higher rated motors = bigger = more weight in the stator (bad) and rotor (really bad). Plus that bigger battery slab. Then the beefed up chassis and suspension. All this weight needs more power to lug it about and so on.
I can see where your thinking was but life is never that simple.
All this weight needs more power to lug it about and so on.
On flat roads at steady highway speeds, most of the drag is aero, so the increased weight won't have such a huge effect on the rolling resistance for either an EV or ICE. In town or on hilly terrain, it will make a huge difference to an ICE because you are building up kinetic energy then bleeding it off as heat from the brakes. For EVs with regenerative braking, the weight should have a smaller effect because some of that energy can be recovered. So, it's complex, but generally a powerful (i.e.) heavy EV will be less efficient than a light one, but not as bad as a heavy ICE vehicle compared to a light one.
Toyota have been pioneering this tech for a long time now.
You can buy a fully petrol BMW for the same price with considerably higher fuel efficiency than a Prius. What's the point?
I quite like the design. Sure it is over the top for uk / europe but aimed at US market where there are loads of such huge vehicles. Great to see the design taking advantage of the removal of petrol engine & transmission etc. Appears to be very good functionality wise. A more modest sized vehicle could be spot on.
I would be worried if i was a main stream car manufacturer that has not already got sone serious RnD on the go. The Rivian cars are going to be on the road for customers next year.
15 minutes, about the time it would take to stop for a pee
you should probably get that looked at.
you should probably get that looked at.
Are you volunteering?
It might not be an everyday thing, but quite a lot of people will sometimes want to drive longer distances with a car full of kids, plus a boat, trailer, caravan etc and not have to worry about finding somewhere to recharge out in the countryside in the middle of the night in shitty weather.
I admire quite how hard you are trying to find the exceptions there!! The petrol station they stop at will probably be closed at night too, especially if it's miles from anywhere 😉
Boating however is the perfect one, everyone turns up to the ramp, unloads the boat and then parks up, easy to put charging points in the car park 😉
Imagine if we had an electric infrastructure and Elon Musk developed and wanted to push the ICE - would we want to swop to mechanically complex locally polluting technology?
The petrol station they stop at will probably be closed at night too, especially if it’s miles from anywhere
24h garages exist, even in the sticks.
You can buy a fully petrol BMW for the same price with considerably higher fuel efficiency than a Prius. What’s the point?
I don't think you can. That needs backing up.
24h garages exist, even in the sticks.
Just like EV chargers. There's villages up here that need to do 30 mile trip for fuel or 1/4 mile to an electric charge point
Re efficiency, the new Tesla model 3 gets 4.1 miles per kWh according to greencarreports.com and the Leaf appears to be about 3.8. Show me an ICE supercar that gets better MPG than a small family ICE runabout.
Yes sports cars have bigger tyres and slightly bigger motors but it's not that big a difference.
For a big ICE engine you need more big cylinders that all need filling with fuel even if you are only cruising. And the bigger petrol cars also have bigger tyres heavier gearboxes etc and much heavier engines.
it does surprise me that there is no concept for a 'piggyback' generator/batteries, rather than trailer. A car uses less than 25bhp at cruising speed (yes it goes up when you accelerate, but if you're just generating power it'd be covered) - even including losses, a 500cc engine would be easily enough to produce that much power. Surely it'd be possible to produce something that's not hugely heavy to hang behind the car (similar to a thule easybag), with a standard interface so it could be used on a variety of cars? Then you could buy an electric car, and just rent the genny when you needed it for the odd longer drive (in my case, it'd be for 1 week a year if I happened to be going to mid-europe).
You can buy a fully petrol BMW for the same price with considerably higher fuel efficiency than a Prius. What’s the point?
I don’t think you can. That needs backing up.
Indeed, and it means buying a BMW.
The small petrol engine used as a generator is a simple and I reckon effective solution. Quite why BMW have dropped the range extender form their horrendously expensive i3 is frankly "ludicrous"
🤪
That truck is stupidly designed cos it’s not aero and wastes battery capacity.
Yes but it’s a truck. Americans love their pick ups and are wedded to the big petrol and Diesel engines in them. If someone can make a vehicle that looks like and works like what they have, is faster than what they have, but has the advantages of less fuel cost then it’ll get people thinking “hey maybe electric can work for me”. They might not buy one but it starts to make it more relevant to them and they’ll consider buying something like that one day maybe a it earlier than if it hadnt been made.
The ludicrous mode in Tesla’s is the same. It’s for the publicity of course because you can’t use it very often at all but it creates desire in people who don’t give a crap about emissions.
So your diesel car that will do 460 miles is the same size car as a leaf or zoe? it must have a hella unusually big fuel tank for a small car.
Not really, most cars have a minimum ten gallon tank so that would be 46mpg, which on a modern diesel should be no problem. My old 95 106 diesel would average well over 50mpg.
65k starting for that rivian makes it cheaper than a model3 in awd guise.
It'll do surprisingly well I think. Plus the suv version that lends itself to the rest of the NA market who don't want a sedan.
I agree with all the adoption points above - and as a household, I hope we have our last two pure petrol and diesel cars. EV will be one of our next cars.
I think many of the 'ah, what about Aviemore once a year' worries are answered by car clubs. Buy a Zoe / leaf etc and get a people carrier for four weekends hire a year - and use of EV from train stations.
My big concern is still that buying any new car is a huge environmental issue.
We have to move closer to work, use feet and pedals to get around more - and not build more cars.
Secondly, I'm not convinced of the creation and disposal of the batteries in EV's and I can see it being the next diesel-gate.
Secondly, I’m not convinced of the creation and disposal of the batteries in EV’s and I can see it being the next diesel-gate.
The batteries when they hit a point that are not good enough for a car can end up as power wall or battery farms. Getting loads more life from them.
Quite why BMW have dropped the range extender form their horrendously expensive i3 is frankly “ludicrous”
Guessing people weren't buying it.
We have to move closer to work
That's not going to happen and I'm not convinced it should. It worked well enough when people worked at their local factory their whole lives, but the world has moved on from that - and for the better from my point of view. I'd hate to do the same shite in the same place for my whole life. A mobile workforce is very important to help economic growth.
But really, what we need is for work to move closer to us.
Secondly, I’m not convinced of the creation and disposal of the batteries in EV’s and I can see it being the next diesel-gate.
That's why we need governments stepping in to control the situation. Batteries should be recycled into more batteries at EOL.
https://www.ford.co.uk/shop/specialist-sales/fleet/phev
PHEV Van anyone?
So your diesel car that will do 460 miles is the same size car as a leaf or zoe? it must have a hella unusually big fuel tank for a small car.
No, it does 650 miles on a normal tank, a run to Scotland will see that well over 700. But that doesn't give you the opportunity to ask smug questions, does it.
It's an 8 year old 5 series estate, a second hand Zoe or Leaf is all I could afford so it's a fair comparison.
and how often do you drive to Aviemore? Do you do it in one run without stopping?
We have 3 members of my sailing club that have i3’s, 2 members have Tesla’s.
Those 5 people are campaigning for an EV point to be installed, where do they want it.. yes that’s right.. right next to the entrance.
The reason is so they can park their car all day in it right next to the main entrance.
#conveinientparking
Edukator
A useful post
Edit It was the one about owning a Zoe. I didn't see the second page of posts
A repeat useful post might result in a ban 😉
and how often do you drive to Aviemore?
Not nearly as often as I'd like, and there's loads of other Scottish venues I want to visit. It was just a question using real journeys to get answers.
Do you do it in one run without stopping?
Of course not, but a quick pee stop is not the same as a charging stop.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of EVs but the sort I can afford is a very long way from the Rivians, Teslas and even new, bigger batteried Zoes.
I dunno why these threads always have someone coming on saying 'yeah but I can't use one for my big hell for leather drive across Europe'. Yeah, we know.
EVs are a thing, lots of people could use one, lots could adapt their usage to use one, but some not. They're not perfect, of course not, and we know they are expensive. But they'll develop, and they'll become better and cheaper. And then we'll see more on the roads.
Of course the government could ban private ownership of ICE cars, and EV sales will come with a month's ICE car hire each year as part of the deal, and we'll be fine.
Of course not, but a quick pee stop is not the same as a charging stop.
How long does it take you from parking up, entering the service station and then back to the car?
Reckon it's quick enough to get a decent fast charge in 😉 Or enjoy the extra 15 mins to relax a little.
Or just hire something for the big drive, the big companies will now deliver it to you too. It's back to the riding a 180mm bike around everywhere for the year because you go to the alps for a fortnight.
How long does it take you from parking up, entering the service station and then back to the car?
I just usually stop & go behind a tree/fence/wall, takes about 30 seconds then I'm on my way in the Mondeo that's doing 50+ mpg, the one I've had 700 miles out of on a tankful on a number of occasions.
Don't think Ive ever spent 15 minutes in any location having a piss.
Don’t think Ive ever spent 15 minutes in any location having a piss.
Some of us have a little more time to chill, a leisurely walk across the car park, ino the services and of course remembering to was your hands after 😉
I dunno why these threads always have someone coming on saying ‘yeah but I can’t use one for my big hell for leather drive across Europe’.
And why is at always assumed that everyone can afford the latest and greatest?
The new Zoe can do up to 186 miles on a charge apparently. How many 15 minute charges is that to get to Scotland? If I'm paying the best part of 20 large on a car I expect it to be suitable for all my driving.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/cost-calculators/renault/zoe/
If I’m paying the best part of 20 large on a car I expect it to be suitable for all my driving.
Why? at 4p/mile for 80-90% of your driving what is the saving each year that funds something extra for the weekend?
The Zoe is the equivalent of 128 MPG
So on 10k miles locally that is getting close to £1k saved to use on things like a hire car for a long trip a few times a year if you are getting really good MPG from your ICE car on all journeys. Add in tax savings etc. and it's a bit more.
You need to have a proper look at full cost of ownership on these things
If I drive Zoé "hell for leather" on the autoroute from St Jean de Luz to Pau (most of the route is 130kmh limit) the battery is as flat as is comfortable by the time I'm home - 128km. If I stick to speed limits along the main roads Zoé gets there and back and there's still a quarter of the battery left (about 330km total range).
Even the fast charge 50kW charger Zoé (which I don't have) takes an hour to add 100km flat out. You soon learn that driving faster is counter productive as time saved driving doesn't make up for the extra charging time. If we're doing any distance on autoroutes we just trundle along with the trucks at 94kmh indicated/90kmh real as that seems to be about the optimum total drive + charge time. The vast majority of existing charge infrastructure is 22kW or less for practical reasons, a 1 x 22kW/2 X 11kW charger can be added to the street lighting circuits at the same time as the street lamps are changed for energy saving versions. The new 50kW chargers draw about the same as 10 houses early evening in Winter.
Edit: I did my sums before buying, Mike, the Zoé offers no saving compared with the equivalent petrol Clio even with cheaper insurance and servicing, and that's with low French electricity prices. What really convinced us wasn't the economic argument, it was low CO2, zero local pollution and the drive - it's the most fun little car I've owned at legal speeds. Madame loves it, no hesitation pulling out of junctions, fluid, smooth, zippy... .
and of course remembering to was your hands after 😉
It's what hand sanitising gel was invented for.
a leisurely walk across the car park,
No way, unless there's a pedestrian crossing of course. 😉
I mentioned earlier that my mate runs a Tesla, he had the 1st gen one, now has the 2nd gen one. The only difference is the 2nd gen one does “80ks” more to the same charge time he reckons.
He drives his to Lake Garda with his dinghy on the roof (lightweight foiling Moth) and says he has to stop 4 times to charge it on the way down, each time he stops he says he waits for 1hr39mins.. each stop..
He too (like Edu above) says it has an optimal speed/charge ratio, it isn’t 80mph, nor 70mph, it’s 65mph.. Now then, in a real world that would be fine for me because I drive like a grandad. He doesn’t though, he drives like a ludicrous looney everywhere and has to stop more frequently.
And this is my whole point.
Drive sensibly, within or below the speed limits and I think EV has some advantages. Drive locally and under say 8k a year and they’re going to benefit plenty of people.
Pragmatically though, at present and until fast charging and charging points are installed, EV’s are a limitation to the vast majority of Car Owners.
I drive a hybrid, it’s the best vehicle in its class by a massive proportion... 62mph ave since I bought it.
I’d be very sceptical of Dracs claims that VW are claiming for such range, VW have history of lying to the public so whatever they say has to be countered with empirical evidence before I go near any VW or subsidiary thereof.
Drive sensibly, within or below the speed limits and I think EV has some advantages. Drive locally and under say 8k a year and they’re going to benefit plenty of people.
Pragmatically though, at present and until fast charging and charging points are installed, EV’s are a limitation to the vast majority of Car Owners.
Your first paragraph just described the vast majority of car owners/users
Yes, we’ve all seen that graph. Trouble with that is the sample set used to collate the data.
Its been debunked ‘000’s of times.
I like the idea of EV motorcycles...
Instead of the A32 becoming a noisy racetrack on a Sunday, it would be really quiet for a change.
the Zoé offers no saving compared with the equivalent petrol Clio even with cheaper insurance and servicing, and that’s with low French electricity prices. What really convinced us wasn’t the economic argument, it was low CO2, zero local pollution and the drive – it’s the most fun little car I’ve owned at legal speeds. Madame loves it, no hesitation pulling out of junctions, fluid, smooth, zippy… .
This.
And also the fact they're not convenient, or necessarily appropriate, for everyone. I don't think anyone besides doomaniac has suggested they should be.
I never said they should be, I was saying they aren't.
And why is at always assumed that everyone can afford the latest and greatest?
Who's said that?
I think I've realised what the problem is. Some folk, such as doomaniac, think that people discussing EVs objectively are in fact trying to persuade him to buy one or criticise him for not having bought one.
They are what they are. They are expensive, if you can't afford one then you can't afford one. I can't. No need to get defensive about it.