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Really well designed, Tesla ludicrous level performance and theoretical 400 mile range.
STW prime movers, get your reservations in now!
Tesla ludicrous level performance
Pointless. A gimmick and utterly irresponsible IMO.
Make the thing drive normally, extend the battery life, make it easy to own/use and be better screwed together than the “ludicrous” Tesla shite.
IMO
the next practical generation will have small capacity petrol engines to generate,top up battery capacity not to drive wheels
The high speed comes for free with EVs unlike in a petrol car.
Also making it shaped like a truck it stupid, it could get 50% more range if it were aero.
My guess is that they've just whacked more batteries in it. If it's comparable in cost to an IC car then I'll be impressed.
the next practical generation will have small capacity petrol engines to generate,top up battery capacity not to drive wheels
This is my thinking too... Hybrids are the way to go, replace reliance on petrol engines for power and replace that requirement with one that simply charges the batteries, then let the battery drive the wheels.
Sort of generators..
Toyota have been pioneering this tech for a long time now, soon I reckon 50% of the cars drivability will be by the battery power and the other 50% for range topup and motorway driving with the engine supplementing the battery drive.
Defo way to go for hybrid drives. IC can be run at optimal revs / load / temps. Not sure the charging rate will be good enough for a long distance 3.5 ton van yet though
Next step is get people to use an app to record their driving over a couple of months then show them how an electric car wod have performed and what the charging cycles would heave been. Most people would be surprised
Why would you put an engine in an electric car rather than more batteries?
Why would you put an engine in an electric car rather than more batteries?
Energy density (a bit) & refuel-ability (more).
Hybrids and RX'ers are a dead end. It will all be pure EV going forward (pun intended)
for instance:
https://electrek.co/2018/10/05/bmw-i3-all-electric-gas-range-extender/
replace that requirement with one that simply charges the batteries, then let the battery drive the wheels.
There will be quite a lot of energy lost in the generation of electricity, charging the battery, then discharging the battery. I think it would be more efficient to use a small ICE (500cc perhaps) that provides enough power to cruise at 120 km/h on the flat and drive the front wheels through a CVT. At 100 km/h, there will be surplus power to top up the batteries. By doing this, you could probably reduce the required battery capacity by 75% or more because most trips are fairly short and you are paying a lot for battery capacity that isn't usually required, but the ICE would make up the difference for long trips.
Drive the rear wheels using electric motors that are powerful enough to provide decent performance on their own. Acceleration, hills, and overtaking will mostly use electric, so the ICE doesn't have to have a broad operating range and could be optimized for efficiency across a very narrow speed range for cruising on the open road and recharging the batteries.
Short trips would be entirely electric, with plug-in charging used as the main power source. Before you leave home, you would specify your destination and whether you can recharge there and the car can calculate the best mixture of ICE and battery power. For longer journeys, you would want the battery to be nearly depleted as you reach the end of your journey at a charging point so you are maximizing the use of plug-in power and minimizing use of the ICE.
Hybrids are a transition/stop-gap technology. Current pure electric tech and infrastructure is sufficient for a lot of the population's needs, soon it will be sufficient for 99%+
That Rivian is a thing of beauty. Tesla's have ridiculous performance because their mission is to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles, and one way to do that is to show that they are fun, fast cars, not slow granny-mobiles (which the G-Wiz did very well).
Plus it's pretty easy to make an electric car very quick. A Nissan Leaf (best selling pure electric car in the UK at the moment) will beat most petrol cars away from the lights.
Why would you put an engine in an electric car rather than more batteries?
Because people all think they drive outside the range refule specs of the cars despite plenty of evidence to say most get nowhere near. It's a conditioning thing due to the availability of petrol that removes any need to plan.
Hybrids and RX’ers are a dead end. It will all be pure EV going forward
In European cities, sure. In rural areas of North America, Australia, Russia, Africa, etc, being able to refuel out of a drum can be a matter of life and death.
New Kia and Hyundai ev with 300 mile range are looking like candidates for my next car. My petrol yeti is hardly used now other than for longer trips. The majority of daily driving being done in the wife’s Leaf.
There's just loads of EVs here in Denmark compared to the UK, all kinds of weird and wonderful non car ones too like huge delivery trikes, it's like being in the future, although it's probably more the UK being stuck in the past. Those tiny BMW i3 accelerate like stink! The Zoes make the most quasi-futuristic noise though.
Plus it’s pretty easy to make an electric car very quick.
It's actually quite easy to make a petrol car very quick too, you just put an enormous engine into a small car. Has some drawbacks, but very easy to do.
The range thing is overstated but at the same time even if a journey is only a couple of time a year if the charging / or boost charge times are such that it pushes a one day journey into a two day journey it will not be acceptable to business due to increased costs and individuals due to increased holiday usage for example.
Thinking about my own semi regular long distance trips, if I can boost a 300 mile range to a 600 mile range with 2 x 30 min stops, or one 15, one 45 stop no problem (maybe another couple of very short pee stops), if all of a sudden each stop has to be 1-2hr or more life gets more complicated.
In European cities, sure. In rural areas of
North America, Australia,Russia, Africa, etc, being able to refuel out of a drum can be a matter of life and death.
Touch OTT there, guess what you can refuel a EV from something that could be far more common
If you are that worried about supply then maybe you could take some petrol in a drum and a generator.
The ICE is going, there will be some long term hangers on but most of them are getting nowhere near buying new vehicles so not really a consideration.
It’s actually quite easy to make a petrol car very quick too, you just put an enormous engine into a small car. Has some drawbacks
Yes and it's the drawbacks I was talking about. There aren't any drawbacks to a fast EV.
guess what you can refuel a EV from something that could be far more common
Not on a backroad in Australia, Texas, Alaska, etc. That's assuming there's actually a road. For city dwellers (like me), an EV is fine, but people who live way out in the sticks aren't going to buy something you can't top up from a can of gas.
There aren’t any drawbacks to a fast EV.
They are still too expensive for most people. The Tesla is very impressive as a performance car, but $80k will also buy a pretty quick ICE car. In fact, you can buy an entry level Ford Mustang for under $30k. Tesla have nothing at that price point.
Interesting info here about li ion batteries degradation over time.
https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die
I think the writer is correct in that after 8 years you don't want to need to replace battery packs in cars due to excessive desegregation.
Toyota have been pioneering this tech for a long time now, soon I reckon 50% of the cars drivability will be by the battery power and the other 50% for range topup and motorway driving with the engine supplementing the battery drive.
I don't really see the need for that additional petrol engine and fuel tank to be taking up space and adding weight in the car so the batteries are having to lug it about all the time. If the elec / batteries give you sufficient range for your day to day driving (presuming your the typical 5 days a week commuter with car parked up 10 hours and night and 8 hours a day) then for exceptional high days and holidays when you need more range it would make more sense just tow the genny in a wee trailer. For most peoples purposes you could just hire that add on for the few days a year its useful rather than concern yourself with owning and storing it
I'm driving from the south Midlands to Aviemore later this year. It's 460ish miles. In my diesel car that's no fuel stops. How many times will I need to recharge a Nissan Leaf?
I also ride at FoD a lot. It's 45-50 miles each way. Will a Leaf or Zoe do that on one charge?
Not on a backroad in Australia, Texas, Alaska, etc. That’s assuming there’s actually a road. For city dwellers (like me), an EV is fine, but people who live way out in the sticks aren’t going to buy something you can’t top up from a can of gas.
So massive minority of people then, glad your thinking about them so much. As I said just check a generator in the back 😉
This is going to be a 20+ year shift, we will catch up with those edge cases as we go along, they may well be the last outposts of the petrol car but they should not be any reason to hold up development.
Australia example - Rural is the term used to describe people outside of the metro areas or large towns.
https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/rural-population-percent-of-total-population-wb-data.html
10% of 25m so about 2.5 million people with 100% access to electricity. Very very few of them will drive 2-300 miles in one go frequently and 99% of the times they did would be past some sort of road house or stopping point. I seem to recall talking to someone who did one of the epic desert leisure 4x4 trips through the middle of Oz and there were still road houses and I'm sure they never went more than 300 miles in one stretch without seeing anything at all.
I’m driving from the south Midlands to Aviemore later this year. It’s 460ish miles. In my diesel car that’s no fuel stops. How many times will I need to recharge a Nissan Leaf?
Guessing Leicester, google maps has that as a 7hr drive, you going to do that non stop? Not even a piss break?
The leaf or zoe is the wrong tool for that sort of drive so if you don't have an electric car that will do that range hire one for the trip, or for that exceptional drive hire a diesel car. With ranges pushing up to 350 and the fast charge for an extra bit it's probably not much different to driving and taking sensible breaks in the drive for staying alert and safe.
As for your FoD trips
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe.html
just about 2 full round trips, range 186 miles
I’m driving from the south Midlands to Aviemore later this year. It’s 460ish miles. In my diesel car that’s no fuel stops. How many times will I need to recharge a Nissan Leaf?
I also ride at FoD a lot. It’s 45-50 miles each way. Will a Leaf or Zoe do that on one charge?
So your diesel car that will do 460 miles is the same size car as a leaf or zoe? it must have a hella unusually big fuel tank for a small car.
when you need more range it would make more sense just tow the genny in a wee trailer
Thats a pretty good point, I'd sooner hire one of those than a whole other car.
The high speed comes for free with EVs unlike in a petrol car.
Umm, no, the laws of aerodynamics still apply. What exactly is it you think you are getting for "free"?
The biggest stumbling block, personally speaking, is still the charging issue. No way of doing it on street, no way I'm owning an EV.
There will be quite a lot of energy lost in the generation of electricity, charging the battery, then discharging the battery. I think it would be more efficient to use a small ICE (500cc perhaps) that provides enough power to cruise at 120 km/h on the flat and drive the front wheels through a CVT.
I think efficiency maybe missing the point (Plus I'm not even sure it's correct). What we need is to be able to get from A to B without emitting CO2. The batteries can be powered by solar panels wind etc.
As we all get use to it the car batteries will be a vital part of the grid. If I could plug in at work then I expect one day to be able to get cheaper electricity if I agree to let the grid use my battery. Charge when it's windy or when the sun is out. Maybe even discharge at times of peak demand. I assume I'll just have an App and If I click I need more than 40 miles a day until Friday I'll get cheaper electricity then If I say I need to fully recharge every day
petrol engines used to generate electricity for topping up drive battery are 250-350cc,compact, lightweight, cheap, easy to package require smaller batteries.
I’m driving from the south Midlands to Aviemore later this year
I'm driving 16 scouts to a campsite in Dorset later this year. They probably won't fit in my Leaf so I'll be renting something more suitable. However I'm driving a 30 mile commute today and Monday, and Tuesday and Wedne........
The biggest stumbling block, personally speaking, is still the charging issue. No way of doing it on street, no way I’m owning an EV.
Yep there is an infrastructure project to be done, much the same as fibre broardband, at the moment it's a bit like asking where you can get some petrol from 100 years ago....
There are charging posts being installed about the place (communal parking ones) that you pay to charge from, thankfully we already have a huge energy distribution network available to us to tap into. This is where cooperation is needed to develop a common charging standard (or at least a minimum one) and to work out how we want to roll that out.
There will be quite a lot of energy lost in the generation of electricity, charging the battery, then discharging the battery. I think it would be more efficient to use a small ICE (500cc perhaps) that provides enough power to cruise at 120 km/h on the flat and drive the front wheels through a CVT.
Part of the issue with the ICE is it pumps it's emissions out where it is, you are then relying on millions of bits of tech to reduce these, do it in bulk at the generation end and you can do more good and keep the cities and built up areas much more free of pollution.
The high speed comes for free with EVs unlike in a petrol car.
No it doesn't. Before you can engage Ludicrous mode in a Tesla you have to prep the batteries, which means using electricity to warm the batteries and do other stuff, which costs you range and probably reduces battery life and efficiency. Then the rate at which you use energy affects the range you get, so therefore by using the performance you're going to be consuming more electricity, which means more charging, and our electricity supply is not 100% clean yet, and it shortens the battery life, which means more mining of rare earth metals from around the world, shipping it all around the world, processing that material into other materials using processes that generates alot of waste and consume alot of energy, then manufacturing the batteries by shipping bulk materials around the world again etc. So no it doesn't come for free.
Like renewables in power generation that will form part of an energy generation portfolio including Nuclear and some fossil fuel generation, EV's will form part of a power portfolio...Some vehicles can be and will be fully EV, like family cars for example, some vehicles will be hybrids, like vans, trucks, and leisure vehicles, and there will also be a slot for good old fashioned internal combustion engines, though what fuel they'l be using will change.
This offering from Tesla is pointless and nothing more than a publicity stunt. Its pointless making an un-aerodynamic heavy vehicle an EV as the range will be crap (400 mile range my @rse), a full EV for an off road practical vehicle that will have limited range in areas away from any charging infrastructure is nonsensical (OK most owners will be using it on the road most likely but that's not the point)...and to top all that its a Tesla, which means it will be >£100k by the time you get it on the road and the build quality will be crap.
Best to wait for the mainstream manufacturers to bring properly engineered and developed products on stream. They'll leap frog Tesla overnight.
"This offering from Tesla is pointless and nothing more than a publicity stunt. Its pointless making an un-aerodynamic heavy vehicle an EV as the range will be crap (400 mile range my @rse), a full EV for an off road practical vehicle that will have limited range in areas away from any charging infrastructure is nonsensical (OK most owners will be using it on the road most likely but that’s not the point)…and to top all that its a Tesla, which means it will be >£100k by the time you get it on the road and the build quality will be crap.
Best to wait for the mainstream manufacturers to bring properly engineered and developed products on stream. They’ll leap frog Tesla overnight."
(It's not a Tesla)
The biggest stumbling block, personally speaking, is still the charging issue. No way of doing it on street, no way I’m owning an EV.
&
Range anxiety
FIFM
Thats why I think small petrol engined/ev cars are the future.
I do wish everyone would got off the bandwagon of “it goes like stink” or “it’s incredibly quick” or “quicker 0-60 than xxxx”
If you want to go quick, get a track car.
Its not a Tesla and EV drive plus proper 4x4 is a perfect match. Loads of space for batteries and instant torque. They will sell like hot cakes even at 70-80k. That thing can tow almost 5 tons and drives like a supercar.
Shame about the grill though!
The biggest stumbling block, personally speaking, is still the charging issue. No way of doing it on street, no way I’m owning an EV.
I can see there being an awkward transition. Sitting in the rush hour traffic you're amongst 'most drivers' - most of whom have had their car sitting on the same drive all night and will have it sitting in the same carpark all day. But faced with those two opportunities to fuel up currently decide to drive to a petrol station instead. Once you convince those drivers that they, and their needs, are indeed ordinary and don't have any of the exceptional needs that underscores 'range anxiety' they'll easily make the switch.
For the outliers who's home arrangement or pattern of use is much less accommodating to charging then the option remains for ICE and popping into the local filling station. Fine. Until.... almost everyone else - that bulk of daily commuters from the subburbs - is using electric. Fuel stations already make a pretty pitiful margin on fuel sales - take away 80% of their business (or even just 20% I guess) and the price will go up and the cost of wide ranging distribution of decreasing volumes will result that outlying fuel stations will just close - those that are open might cut their loses by not opening 24 hours a day, or 7 days a week and only serve peak time customers instead to reduce their overhead. Suddenly the argument that petrol / diesel "is convenient and readily available anywhere' reverses. While I'm suggesting trailers to extend the range of electic cars it might be more a case of towing a bowser of fuel around with you if you have to stick with ICE 🙂 If your home / parking arrangement don't give you access to a plug then they don't give you somewhere to put your own bunded fuel tank either.
I can't even be bothered to make the same points over and over again every time an EV gets posted and arguing with petrolheads and greenies who think I'm saying something else
That truck is stupidly designed cos it's not aero and wastes battery capacity.
I've been using the Zoé for 18 months. My experiences in different countries.
France: I've got a Mobiv card for long journies and charge at home most of the time. There are lots of charge points, they work, they're rarely taken, they're cheap and most are 22kW. Autoroutes are the exception, stupid expensive. We usually aim at 250km between charges which leaves some in hand to get to another if it doesn't work or some tit with a plug in Prius has left his car for the day on it.
Germany: I've given up, besides with the energy mix in Germany you're running on brown coal. Stuff 'em with their tens of different expensive cards and apps. In Berlin every charge point we saw had a fully charged BMW or Merc hybrid hogging the charge point for the free parking. **** 'em.
Spain: Recargas app. Usually free, never squatted, usually 22kW, just a long way between them in the west which means driving at 80kmh to be sure of getting to the next one.
UK: Pod Points. Too many are only 3 or 7kw. We spent half a day in Romford because it was only 3kW rather than the 7 announced on the site and it took 4 hours to charge enough to get to the next fast charger. Some squatting with hybrids and ICE cars but not as bad as Germany.
I think it's a pity BMW are dropping the range extender, even the new version has less range than the Zoé and not needing to rely on charge infrastructure is enough to convince a lot of buyers that the i3 is viable.
In terms of how the Zoé has change my long distance driving, if the journey is on main roads I'm happy to stop for an hour or so rather than 10 mins every 200km or so. For long trips on motorways in Winter at night I use the Dacia Lodgy petrol. If I only had one car it would be an i3 with a range extender - and they're stopping the sale of those in Europe.
Very cold weather has a significant impact on range. The heater takes over 1kw and the battery loses capacity. It's currently showing 282km fully charged, in Summer it would be around 340km for the same type of use.
Very very few of them will drive 2-300 miles in one go frequently and 99% of the times they did would be past some sort of road house or stopping point.
It might not be an everyday thing, but quite a lot of people will sometimes want to drive longer distances with a car full of kids, plus a boat, trailer, caravan etc and not have to worry about finding somewhere to recharge out in the countryside in the middle of the night in shitty weather. I expect EVs will be a majority of cars within a few decades because they are ideal for city people with short commutes (i.e. most people, most of the time), but there are still a lot of people who need the range and versatility of an ICE.
I can’t even be bothered to make the same points over and over again every time an EV gets posted and arguing with petrolheads and greenies who think I’m saying something else
So instead of making them over and over why not make them coherently? You said the high speed was free, it's really obviously not. What is it you are actually trying to say?
If your home / parking arrangement don’t give you access to a plug then they don’t give you somewhere to put your own bunded fuel tank either.
You seem to be proposing that anyone who doesn't have a driveway can go whistle? Meanwhile everyone else can carry on as normal. That's helpful. Of course in reality petrol stations will be around for a long time to come to service the needs of everyone who can't afford a new car or who's needs aren't fulfilled by an EV. As tech trickles down it becomes less of an issue and you would hope infrastructure would keep up.
Just another thought, what if your trailer was another battery bank? Now that actually makes more sense as you could swap it out at certain charging stations and carry on your way. Ideal for those few times a year trips.
You can buy a battery trailer for the Zoé.
4:31 if you're not inte"rested in the bla bla and just owant to see what it looks like. With the old 23kWh Zoé and the state of infrastructure 2 years ago it was a good idea. Now with 41 kWh I can't see the point for something I'd use three times a year.
You said the high speed was free, it’s really obviously not. What is it you are actually trying to say?
In a petrol car there is a trade off between increased maximum power and efficiency at cruising speeds. In an EV there is not.
That's why really fast petrol cars tend to be less economical.
In a petrol car there is a trade off between increased maximum power and efficiency at cruising speeds. In an EV there is not.
There will be a trade off because it will need more powerful motors and more robust components such as tyres, brakes, etc. That will cause increased frictional losses, which will reduce efficiency. On top of that, if you want to use the increased power very much, then you will need a bigger battery pack, so the car must be physically bigger, so aero drag will increase, which will reduce efficiency. Thing is, why buy an EV that can perform like a supercar if you never use the performance? If you actually use the performance, the range will be massively reduced.
Similar things apply to ICE vehicles. If you take a standard car and fit a more powerful engine and drivetrain, but still drive it at the same speed as before, the fuel economy won't be all that much worse. Problem is that powerful cars are generally larger and heavier, plus they get driven more aggressively. Once you start driving any car fast, the fuel economy plummets, so it's really comparing apples and oranges.