Forum menu
Just logged in. I see the Daily Mail is running riot again.
Communists, Marxists and Socialists all at the same time.
Dominic is now a hero and Boris appears to be a leader to aspire too.
Why is it the electorate are thick and stupid when they vote for Brexit but they suddenly are in the clear when they vote Tory Binners?
Difficult to accuse anyone of being thick for voting for Boris when you’ve people who can’t see straight through Corbyn, Len and the rest of the plastic socialists living cozy, comfortable, highly paid, ring-fenced central London lives at the top of the Labour Party where they barely even turn up for ‘work’
I worked on the unionised chemical plants on the Mersey estuary in the late 80’s and early 90’s.
I saw enough of self-serving Union shysters like McClusky to know what they’re all about.
They haven’t changed
If only there was, oh I dunno, another party you could vote for?
The non-Ian Lavery analysis of the last election concludes that millions of former labour voters opted for ‘none of the above’ and didn’t bother
So whoever wins the Labour leadership has to acknowledge that where the party is at the moment isn’t something that can inspire people to get off their arses to vote for it once every five years.
And looking at the state of it, it’s not difficult to see why.
Not something that seems to particularly bother the present ten out of ten ‘leadership’
I follow plenty of good decent intelligent Labour members on Facebook… they are talking as if it has to be RLB… and completely dismissive of all other candidates, and their reasoning is, well, not well reasoned in my opinion. She is the anointed one for many.
It’s a cult. The bizarre thing is that their David Koresh is apparently about to shuffle off (I’ll believe it when I see it) but he needs to anoint his successor first
And all the clueless sixth formers look to the man who’s delivered two election defeats - the latter the biggest election defeat for labour since the 1930’s - for answers
Are they really that thick? Seriously? Apparently so
It’s like looking to Donald Trump to propose answers for climate change
I have to say I am deeply surprised to find that Binners isn't happy with the candidates.
Yep, if only the great Andy Burnham was standing eh...
Yep, if only the great Andy Burnham was standing eh…
Flip flop Burnham was terrible on a national stage. He's doing better in his current form but could yet flounder.
He'll never be in Westminster as an MP again
I have to say I am deeply surprised to find that Binners isn’t happy with the candidates.
And, what are your thoughts on them? If RLB is made leader, do you think she can make Labour look less insular, and widen it’s appeal enough to get to form a government (alone or with others) after the next general election?
Agree about the weather vane politician who is now MCR mayor… I for one am glad he’s not in the running… but then, I’ve been voting Labour… can anyone think of another mayor prepared to completely change his position on major issues to win over people not otherwise voting for his party…? One that went on to use that ‘flexible’ approach to policy to become PM? Hmm… perhaps those of us wanting a principled consistent leader for Labour are part of the problem for the party… now that’s a depressing thought.
I see the Hodge fanboi feels free to let rip his Islamophobic tropes on here:
'Jeremy Corbyn (peace be upon him)'
Is this the new norm?
Islamophobic tropes?
Erm.... yeah... whatever, comrade
Anyway... back to the matters in hand, outside the bunker, and with no tinfoil helmets on...
Andy Burnham is up for re-election in May. He'll no doubt win comfortably. In constituancies like mine that have, some for the first time ever... just elected Tory MPs. He'll do that, as he always has done, by distancing himself from the Westminster labour party and the voter-repellent Corbynite 'Project' and employing that filtihiest of words... pragmatism. Oh... and competence. Another alien concept to the Westminster party in its Islington bunker.
No lessons to be learnt there though, obviously. We've no interest in people who win elections. Idealogical purity is far more important as you stride out into the political wilderness.
He’ll never be in Westminster as an MP again
Indeed. He's bright enough to stay well clear of that car crash. And in contrast to those in Westminster/Islington, he's prioritised actually getting stuff done, instead of endless, pointless, impotent virtue-signalling and placard-waving on Twitter
I see that Starmer has folded and started to pander further to the sixth formers with new praise for Magic Grandad.
One thing is becoming increasingly clear. The labour party is ****ed. The paradox at its heart is that to be elected leader you will have to parrot the Corbynite narrative. The slight problem there is that the Corbynite narrative is electorally toxic with voters. So to do what you need to do to get yourself elected as leader, you curse your leadership and the wider party in the eyes of the people who actually matter... the electorate
Thats some Catch 22 the party has created for itself
I have to say I am deeply surprised to find that Binners isn’t happy with the candidates
Not at all. I really like Lisa Nandy and think that she's exactly what the labour party needs if their even going to seriously begin the long slog back to relevence outside the sixth form. Obviously that means she hasn't a hope. the fabled 'membership' will no doubt plumb for RLB and in doing so hammer the final nail into the coffin of the party and deliver permanent tory rule.
Cheered on by comrade Len, Seamas, and, of course, Boris, Dom and Tory Central office
Will you be happy with Keir Binbins?
I find it funny that you don't want Keir to pander to the LP members to get elected but you do want the LP to pander to the electorate to get elected. Isn't Keir being pragmatic in doing so?
I think Kier Starmer is credible, yes. Whether he's prepared to do what is needed to make the party electable again is another matter
Whats clear is that whoever wins the leadership is going to need some kind of'Clause 4' moment where they have to get the party, and the membership, to face up to some uncomfortable realities.
Namely that the voters of this country are simply never going to deliver a majority for anything that looks like Corbynism
As this thread demonstrates, there seems little appetite within the party to engage with that glaring reality. The blinkers are on and the comfort blanket of moral righteousness and idealogical purity has been well and truly snuggled into
If you want to hear to what degree, then listen to Len McClusky intervirew on Pienaars Politics. Its like he, and those around him, are inhabiting some kind of alternative reality. While singing the praises of 'Becky' he was asked why the labour party slumped to sucha a catastrophic defeat. His answer...
a) Brexit
b) Tom Watson (yes... seriously)
c) The Media
Thats it
Nothing else. Not Jeremy. Not the incompetent closet communists around him. Not a front bench stacked with non-entities, there are no other merit other than their nodding dog loyalty to the glorious leader. Not the magic book of dreams that was the manifesto (which, apparently, according to both him and RLB the electorate loved). None of that.
Discounting Brexit (as that is now apaprently done), Tom Watson was more at fault for the defeat than Corbyn and his acolytes. And the media, obvs (booooo... hiss... Rupert Bloody Murdoch)
To quote Malcom Tucker.... Deluded to the point of autism.
Binners, why don't you just come out the closet and admit to yourself that you're a Tory at heart? Maybe not a full on black hearted Thatcherite but a Tory nontheless. You want the Labour party to be more like the Tory party, why? So you can vote for centre right policies with a clean conscience? Just rip the plaster off, deal with the momentary sting and then feel better about yourself for it.
Or just start campaigning for the Libs, they're closer to what you seem to believe in than either Labour or the Tories and don't have the same lunatic element. Orange is still a shade of red. Scotland has proven it needn't be a binary choice (albeit by reducing that choice to one but we'll skip over that bit for now).
If you think this is wrong explain why. Explain why left of centre policies from a traditionally left of centre party are wrong and why we should be supporting the opposite. Because for the life of me I'll be buggered if I can figure out why.
Ah, yes.... if you don’t agree with Jeremy then you’re a Tory?
Accusing everyone to the right of Len McClusky of that has worked really well, hasn’t it?
You can’t just aloofly sneer at everyone for their supposed ideological impurity, then the next day expect them to vote for you. That’s not how democracy works. Ask Boris. He gets it.
You have to make an offer that people are prepared to believe in, not berate them for failing to see the obvious wisdom of your moral superiority
Ah, yes…. if you don’t agree with Jeremy then you’re a Tory?
Its the black and white world of the true believers Binners.
You want the Labour party to be more like the Tory party, why? So you can vote for centre right policies with a clean conscience?
Its actually how you would win elections in this country as it currently stands, I'm not one for going on too much about ideological impurity like Binners, but you are operating on the belief that your hands and minds must not be sullied by straying from the one true path, and that it is the voting public that must come to Socialism...and a few of you will be hoping that with Brexit and a few terms of tory rule that this will happen.
All you have done so far is let the country down. Politics is a dirty business, full of compromise, hypocrites, liars, it would seem the current labour party and its followers are too weak for a dirty fight.
This whole Red Tory thing is beyond absurd. You're literaly saying we don't want people like you in our party, we don't want people like you to vote for us.
In the US, Republicans tried this in 2008 and 2012 with their RINO accusation, (Republican in name only.) Didn't work for them.
Ideology is a 20th Century thing. Do you think the voters that deserted Labour voted for a Tory ideology do you? You think they didn't take one look at Corbyn and his front bench and were'nt terrified?
Pragmatism trumps principles in the 21st century. If you harp on about your principles it just appears like you're inflexibe (as well as implying that others don't have them) It suggeats that you're of a fixed mimd, that a some point you stopped learning and would be incapable of operating in a complex and ever shifting world. In short, You're a liability.
This whole Red Tory thing is beyond absurd. You’re literaly saying we don’t want people like you in our party, we don’t want people like you to vote for us.
+1
Because of this, even if Starmer get's in, I'm still going to find it a bitter pill to swallow voting labour.
If the party just puts a new leader in place, without a fundamental shift in direction, adopting a more open, transparent and pragmatic approach to policy then the Labour party is as good as finished.
It will complete the move that started with Corbyns election of essentially becoming a shouty, insular, self-absorbed, self-righteous protest group rather than a serious political party. In its present form the party is incapable of providing a serious opposition, let a lone a credible alternative government
There was a good article in yesterdays Observer (yes, yes... I know... along with the BBC its apparently now a mouthpiece of right-wing Tory propaganda) by Nick Cohen which incredulously looks at the denial presently at play within the Labour upper echelons
Labour’s hierarchy should be full of shame – but they just sound smug
If Corbynites meant what they said, they would be ashamed to have given the Conservatives another five years in power. As it is, they can no more feel shame than accept responsibility
He's bang on! If you listen to the Len McClusky interview I linked too, its staggering! It's like they're living in some parallel universe where the election result was a vindication of the UK's overwhelming desire for a Corbynite socialist government. These people aren't so much living in their own bubble, they're on another planet
Ah, yes…. if you don’t agree with Jeremy then you’re a Tory?
Not at all, by all means disagree but stop proposing policies at odds with the party. Like I said, if you like the centre ground campaign for the Libs, to date you've not given me one good reason (or in fact any) why that's not an ideologically better proposition.
Pragmatism trumps principles in the 21st century.
I think we have wildly different definitions of pragmatism. As a Labour voter, "Holding your nose" and voting Tory is not pragmatic. Pragmatic would be voting for Labour despite shortcomings.
Do you think the voters that deserted Labour voted for a Tory ideology do you?
Er, the results would suggest that, yes.
You think they didn’t take one look at Corbyn and his front bench and were’nt terrified?
They may well have been. The question is why? It couldn't possibly be related to those within the party themselves doing everything possible to talk folk out of voting for them could it? Of those same people talking of "far left" ideology and evoking images of failed socialism. Nah, couldn't be that.
And despite your assumptions I'm not a particular Corbyn fan and I care less for his flunkies, I do however believe that things could have been a whole lot better if people within the party stopped badmouthing it at every given opportunity and got on with trying to effect useful change rather than throwing toys out the pram.
They may well have been. The question is why? It couldn’t possibly be related to those within the party themselves doing everything possible to talk folk out of voting for them could it?
The ever lengthening list of pitiful excuses and scapegoats now covers just about everyone other than Grandad and those around him, who have all been duly exonerated from any responsibility, by no less than Ian Lavery.
Do you think anyone on the left is going to get in touch with anyone in the real world at any point in the near future?
It certainly appears not, at this point. Lefty La-la-land obviously seems to be far to cozy
if people within the party stopped badmouthing it at every given opportunity and got on with trying to effect useful change rather than throwing toys out the pram.
Don't be daft, those on the right would have a pretty pointless existence if they didn't spend almost all their time slagging off their own party rather than the tories. I often wonder at their motivations. I don't think they're tories, I just think it's a combination of finding it easier to fight against those in their own party, and dummies-out-of-the-pram petulance that they're not in charge any more.
I find it funny that you don’t want Keir to pander to the LP members to get elected but you do want the LP to pander to the electorate to get elected. Isn’t Keir being pragmatic in doing so?
Nail on the f***** head! The labour party of Blair and his cronies no longer exists. The sooner binners and the rest of them get used to that the sooner labour can move on.
those on the right
And we’re off again.
the Labour Party will continue its journey into total political irrelevance. A weird sect steadfastly stuck in the 1970’s
They should do quite well after Brexit then?
Nail on the f***** head! The labour party of Blair and his cronies no longer exists. The sooner binners and the rest of them get used to that the sooner labour can move on.
NEWSFLASH: 'Moving on' is exactly what the last 4 years, under the 'leadership' of the sainted benevolence of Comrade Corbyn have been about. A total break with the past. A complete rejection of Blairism/Centrism (booooooo... hisss.... IRAQ!!) A new socialist dawn. The delivery of a new ideologically pure Utopia.
We've reached the final destination of that particular project. It ended with the biggest Tory majority since 1983. The voters of this country gave it a massive two fingers and opted for what looked like a least worst option. Imagine that for an achievement.... Joris Bohnson and his far right cronies were a least worst option? Staggering!
At some point those on the left are going to have to poke their heads out of the bunker, take their tinfoil helmets off, stop blaming everyone else for the abject failure of their cloud-cuckoo-land manifesto and voter-repellent 'leadership' and acknowledge that they, and they alone, own this shitshow
If they fail to do this - and as yourself and the rest of the fan club are busy demonstrating - theres absolutely zero sign of that happening, then its permanent tory rule for all of us
It really is that simple
RL-B was spouting something the other day that sounded too much like BloJo for my liking.
She’ll need to move her position a long way to get my vote.
Do you think anyone on the left is going to get in touch with anyone in the real world at any point in the near future?
People in the 'real world' currently think climate change either doesn't exist or can be fixed by recycling cans and bottles. People in the 'real world' are obsessed with trade tariffs and 'making our own laws'. People in the 'real world' think all our problems are down to foreigners. People in the real world think those of us who eat foreign food and don't eat meat are weirdos.
The real world you're referring to is nothing of the sort, it's a nostalgic fantasy that we can go back to the glory days of fish and chips and asians only working in corner shops and curry houses. Anyone who thinks climate change is a big problem, that we should pay more for public services, and is comfortable with homosexuals and non-white people is roundly dismissed as an elitist metropolitan communist do-gooder. The real world is a cesspit of hatred, bile, selfishness and petulance, and I'm quite happy to stay as far away from it as possible.
We’ve reached the final destination of that particular project. It ended with the biggest Tory majority since 1983. The voters of this country gave it a massive two fingers and opted for what looked like a least worst option. Imagine that for an achievement…. Joris Bohnson and his far right cronies were a least worst option? Staggering!
But they didn't give the policies the two fingers, they just wanted to "Get Brexit Done". Rerun the election with the same people in 2 years time when Brexit has been "done" and the result would have been very different.
The leader certainly didn't help but Brexit was just as big an issue issue. The policies were good and they should have just shouted about the 2 most popular ones and repeated it rather than confusing everyone with loads of polices.
Daz... I know its Monday, mate, but even by your standards you're a little ray of sunshine this morning.
Do you need a hug?
Do you need a hug?
Ha! S'ok it's all just a coping mechanism. First the sociopathic rage, then the defensive nihilism. I'm well practised at it 🙂
Why would shifting away from Corbynism necessarily mean a return to Blairism? Are we that lacking in imagination that we can't think of other alternatives? RLB talks of a revolution in politics, the only revolution that needs to happen is that within the Labour party, because at the moment it's not fit for purpose.
If we can accuse Brexit voters of being enthralled by an imaginary version of the past then surely we must hold Labour to account in the same way, trotting out (pun intended) a version of late 70's-early 80's loony leftism. One side wearing a pair or rose tinted spectacles whilst the other wears a blindfold.
Politics is a sales job, Labour needs to set out a vision for the future and market it. At present it is completely stymied by the structures within the party. It's painfull to watch leadership candidates campaign with one (or both) hands tied behind their back. They seem too afraid to say what they know needs to be said.
This is a thread about Labour leadership candidates, it could also be titled New direction for Labour. The current direction pins all it's hopes on the country completely falling apart and the population seeing the light and turning to Marxism. That's a pretty cr*p message to sell.
Labour needs a post Brexit mindset, Brexit didn't happen last Friday, it happened 3 years ago. (I know someone will be on here in a bit saying it's only just started and when seen as a process they'd be right.) Lisa Nandy seems to be the only candidate to have accepted the reality of Brexit and she accepted it some time ago. This leads me to think she's been thinking in a post Brexit mindset for some time, not mulling over long lost battles.
But they didn’t give the policies the two fingers, they just wanted to “Get Brexit Done”. Rerun the election with the same people in 2 years time when Brexit has been “done” and the result would have been very different.
Labours messages managed to get more confusing as the election campaign progressed. It felt like they were throwing policies at the wall to see what would stick. Making it up on the hoof.
And the parties ratings were only headed in one direction. Through the floor. Why on earth do you think that will change in a couple more years, given the utterly shambolic state of the party? It looks like all they plan on doing is replacing Grandad with his anointed one and carrying on banging the same drum that voters rejected twice already. The last time by a thumping great margin.
What is it they say about the definition of madness? They need a radical change of direction after this miserable defeat. Only Lisa Nandy seems to get that.
The leader certainly didn’t help but Brexit was just as big an issue issue. The policies were good and they should have just shouted about the 2 most popular ones and repeated it rather than confusing everyone with loads of polices.
All this illustrates is the political cluelessness of those around Corbyn and their utter ineptitude when it came to running a campaign. This is all well documented. All those marxist incompetents should be history after that magnitude of failure they delivered. But instead, in a typical bout of nepotism, they were all given (very highly paid) permanent contracts so they can't be put out to pasture. Thus reinforcing union stereotypes of 'jobs for life for the boys' and rewarding failure. A great look in 2020.
Whats more, the Corbynites are presently franticly trying to secure more senior places on their union-funded gravy train at the top of the party, to ensure anyone who follows Grandad (in case the membership fails to deliver 'Becky') is straight-jacketed into the same narrow political cul-de-sac
They're behaving exactly like the Cult that they've always been accused of being. A closed shop.
Labours messages managed to get more confusing as the election campaign progressed. It felt like they were throwing policies at the wall to see what would stick. Making it up on the hoof.
Exactly why I said pick the 2 most popular and just repeat them everyday. The others can just stay in the manifesto which nobody reads.
All this illustrates is the political cluelessness of those around Corbyn and their utter ineptitude when it came to running a campaign.
I think this is the closest we're going to get to a concensus between us. That was entirely the problem, I don't think the policies were in themselves problematic as opposed to the way they were packaged and presented.
Yet the millionaire Marxists responsible for those appalling communications and disastrous strategy have all been given new contracts and pay-rises, so whoever ends up as leader is saddled with the same gang of highly paid incompetents.
I thought it was the Tory’s who were meant to be the old boys club?
Ironically, their (horribly effective) head of communications and strategy isn’t even a member of the party.
Here’s an interesting little snippet for you... he’s also paid less than Grandads strategic genius, Seamas Milne, who’s almost comic ineptitude is all funded by union members subs of course.
Jobs for the boys...
I think this is the closest we’re going to get to a concensus between us. That was entirely the problem, I don’t think the policies were in themselves problematic as opposed to the way they were packaged and presented.
The policies were great, Nationalise everything quickly, every family will be £6k better off, water and utilities will be cheaper with better quality, free interent, 4 day working week etc etc.
A great list of policies, which everyone in the Country should vote for.
But in the real world, it was clear that lot could not be paid for, and it just looked like a made up list, which was totally unworkable, and so far off the affordability range that even solid Labour voters couldnt vote for.
I always laugh when someone on the front bench say they have 'won the argument'.
Yes, you have, we all want these things, but the clueless Labour Leaders could never deliver it, so we'd never vote for it.
Disregarding Corbyn (who is an abysmal Leader), the Labour front bench was a Vanarama league team up against Premier leagues Tories. And the Tories have been doing terribly for the last 3 years.
They didnt lift their game enough to even get a draw.
And, it really was the worst Governemt for many years they were playing against, yet still couldnt get a goal, never mind a win.
God it's depressing, just had a look at the betting odds to remind myself how bad things really are and are likely to be for some time to come. Starmer nailed on and RLB 5/1, Nandy 11/1. I had deceived myself in to believing possible futures.
The immediate future for the Labour party is to be an effective opposition. Boris is already dismissing any scrutiny of his Brexit plans as mumbo jumbo. There's no one to hold him to account for the minute because the opposition is too busy eating itself. Once they finaly get back to their day jobs It'll likely be Starmer at the dispatch box, challenging the government with a load of legalese. This has been the approach of the last 3 years and it hasn't worked. I can't see the public being engaged in any way with Starmer at the helm, Boris will be able to steamroller the whole thing through.
We can't look to parliament and the law to hold Boris to account, he'll brush it off. The public needs to keep engaged with the process. The only thing Boris will pay attention to is his popularity with the electorate. (That's why he's called a poulist) He wants to keep the public in the dark as much as possible and just trust him to get it done.
Again, I can only see Lisa Nandy as the one being able to engage with the public on this issue and keep them interested. Though again, I just looked at the odds.
Thornberry is feeling the squeeze between Corbyn's adopted daughter and Starmer. Poor thing
Polls showing Thornberry ahead of RLB with the public, even when limited to Labour voters. She has no chance of getting union backing now though. And the members wouldn’t choose her anyway. Nandy more popular still, outside the “better to be a protest group than compromise in government” ilk.
So… talking of someone Unite and a huge chunk of the membership back, but voters don’t want anywhere near office… Unite’s candidate for Deputy Leader…
https://twitter.com/richardburgon/status/1225134688529981441?s=21
change Labour's rules so that we won't back military action without the members having a vote.
Parody account?
I was reading in this morning's Grauniad that total plum's latest attempt to make Jeremy Corbyn look like a towering political colossus. He's the political equivalent of Alan Partridge, randomly shouting out his ideas for programmes
MONKEY TENNIS!
I bet they love him in the 6th form Momentum common room. The fact that he's Comrade Lens choice for deputy leader tells you everything you need to know about Comrade Len's judgement. His dream ticket of Becky and Ricky as the leadership team really would deliver us a true one party state
Parody account?
You'd hope so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately for the Labour Party he's very much for real, and has his finger on the pulse of the pressing issues at the forefront of voters minds.
What a total cockwomble
Went to my CLP nomination meeting this week. It was interesting (actually worrying is a better word) how a majority of the nearly 40 members who got up to speak were still firmly of the belief that Corbyn was a great leader, that the policies put forward in the manifesto were very popular, and that the only reasons for the election loss were the press and those Labour members and MPs who were in the centre or right of the party who didn't ally themselves to Corbyn, McCluskey and Lansman's 'popular' version of socialism. Some speakers didn't even bother highlighting the benefits of RLB, but just used their time to slag off Starmer with a couple even stating they would leave the party if he was elected.
RLB won the vote for leader, but interesting only got 4 second preference votes compared with Lisa Nandy who came a narrow second but had some 40 second preference votes. Dawn Butler won the nomination for deputy.
It seems that currently in the Labour Part there is more emnity for those in the centre and right of the party rather than the Tories.
Burgon’s got some great ideas.
I look forward to the Tories stealing them and seeing the result of when the membership vote on reinstating the death penalty and national service.
If Richard Burgon's motion gets passed and by some miracle we get a Labour gov't, does that mean we will declare war on Israel? (Backed by the members having a vote obviously)