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There is no way on earth that the SNP are scared of Nandy.
big_n_daft
I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists
As a Scot, all the candidates scare me - because I don't think any of them have a chance in hell of taking on BJ and the Tories so we'll likely have another 10 years with them in charge of the UK and, amongst other things, trying to dismantle existing devolution.
Apparently, she's the one that worries the Tories the most though
Somewhat unsurprisingly.
They'll all be rooting for Comrade Len and the sixth formers delivering 'Becky'
Maybe Labour's chances in Scotland will be improved by Emily Thornberry. 🙂
You’re as guilty of stereotyping as some Eton toff.
Except I saw it with my own eyes whre I grew up and still see it today pretty much everywhere as soon as you leave the nice cossetted confines of a big city centre or middle class suburb or market town. So who is it the labour party should be targeting if we're ruling out northern racists and city dwelling latte-drinking hipsters? The trouble is if you ask your average market town normal non-racist working class hummus-hating drone what they think of something like climate change, they'll probably tell you it's a load of tree-hugging nonsense, or that it's ok, because they recycle a few tin cans and plastic bottles. If that's the answer then I'm out.
As an aside, and a good example of what I'm talking about, at my work there are now quite a few people of differing sexualities, including at least one non-binary person who fairly often wears what would normally be considered non-gender appropriate dress (ie a bloke wearing a skirt). The young metropolitan hipster types and old hippies like me think it's great, but the salt-of-earth working class lads and lasses from the likes of wigan, bolton etc can't get their heads around it and can often be heard whispering about poofs and trannies. Despite outward appearances, we still have a very long way to go.
So who is it the labour party should be targeting if we’re ruling out northern racists and city dwelling latte-drinking hipsters?
Why do you think all these groups are mutually exclusive?
Most people, despite your derisive and dismissive opinion of them, are more pragmatic than you think.
If you want to get elected then you have to appeal to as broad a spread of people as possible. That's the way democracy works. Labour did it in the recent past and won 3 elections (booo... hiss... the bastards!!! IRAQ!!!) by being more open and pragmatic and less idealogical and uncompromising.
The present labour party leadership couldn't even be bothered trying to appeal to the parts of their own party that they deemed insufficiently 'on message', never mind anyone else
Thus delivering the biggest Tory majority for over 3 decades
It's really not rocket science, is it? Ask Dominic Cummings. Best not ask Seamas or Len though. They still seem to be in denial about how democracy functions. Apparently having a big enough fan club who'll chant your name at a miners gala will get you the keys to number ten. Somebody really should have a word...
Why do you think all these groups are mutually exclusive?
They're as mutually exclusive as the hippy left vegans are. This is the whole point. Whether the honourable working class pie eaters of Wigan agree with all this utopian lefty green stuff or not, they're going to have to get used to it, because it's the only solution to the civilisation threatening problem of climate change and resource finiteness. The drivers of social mobility (healthcare, education, social security etc), are not going to be possible in a world where the climate heats up to dangerous levels and resources start running out.
The people you deride as the 6th form debating society, are the ones who actually understand the problem and the radical actions that are necessary to combat it. RLB understands it, Starmer understands it, McDonnel, Corbyn and pretty much everyone else on the left understands it, but they're just being unrealistic dreamers apparently. What's Nandy's view? I have no idea because she's obsessing about people who have their heads in the sand. Although she's perfectly willing to consider killing millions by launching nuclear weapons as she said today, not to mention sending in the police against those rebellious scots. Pragmatism at it's worst.
Understanding the problem and understanding how to achieve the solution are not the same thing.
understanding how to achieve the solution
Care to elaborate what that is? Because the message from the moderate, grown up non-sixth formers seems to be not to mention it at all for fear of offending the salt of the earth flat cap wearers in the 'northern heartlands'. You can't solve a problem unless you take it on head-to-head with full commitment. Climate change and other relateed issues will not be solved by getting into power by not mentioning it, and then hoping the voters won't notice when you start to make the necessary changes that are required.
Actually I see n evidence anyone understand the fundamental issues - or certanly is able to articulate them in public. I have not seen anything to make me believe they have either the right or left of the party.
You can’t solve a problem unless you take it on head-to-head with full commitment.
Fully committed, and in opposition.
While I agree with you about getting out there and telling the voters the truth about what we need to do, even in the areas where many don’t want to hear it… you need people who can deliver that message and win people over. Which of the current leadership candidates can do that?
It’s also the exact opposite of what you have been banging on about as regards Brexit.
I have not seen anything to make me believe they have either the right or left of the party.
True, but it's all relative, and there is a huge difference between what the left and right are proposing. The green new deal is only a start, yet it's too radical for the 'grown-ups'.
It’s also the exact opposite of what you have been banging on about as regards Brexit.
My point on brexit was that the result of the referendum should be honoured as to ignore it would undermine the democratic system and something much worse would result. I think I was proved right on that in the end. If, god forbid, we had a referendum on tackling climate change, then I'd say the same thing. But clearly having that referendum would be an increadibly stupid thing to do.
So, if we had a had an “incredibly stupid referendum”, and the result was narrowly “let the world burn”, but some key Labour seats had strong support for “world burning”, because “those green elites talk down to us”, or just to “send a message to London”, you’d expect labour to advocate for the world burning?
Anyway, which of the candidates look up to the job of convincing non-Labour voters of the importance of urgent action on climate change, and get them to vote Labour to achieve that action?
So, if
Completely hypothetical and pointless question. The difference with brexit is that it wasn't a hypothetical situation. Besides, I don't think you can compare a civilisation-level threat with membership of a trading bloc, they're at oppositee ends of the importance spectrum.
which of the candidates look up to the job of convincing non-Labour voters of the importance of urgent action on climate change, and get them to vote Labour to achieve that action?
I haven't changed my mind. Starmer is the only feasible option, hopefully with RLB as shadow chancellor.
How does that fit with your bigoted northerner stereotype, then?
Pot Kettle black.
The whole of 2019 you used stereotypes for momentum, lefties, Corbynistas etc.
In fact you ran your own campaign.
The left but not left party
Labour are polling dreadfully even with Keir as the favourite.
It's about more than the leader boys and girls.
Thats one less for Long Bailey. I doubt she’ll get the vote of many CLP’s, but will be depending on the big unions to stitch it up in her favour
The biggest union is backing Starmer, not that I expect you to take notice of a fact that contradicts your prejudices.
Kelvin -
I think he was trying to say that Universities used to teach you how to think, now they teach you what to think.[A bit like Momentum really.]
The huge increase in University intake since the early 90's has seen numbers almost double. This was achieved in part by introducing ever increasing fees. The cumulative effect has been to see middle class numbers increase whilst working class numbers have tumbled to a trickle.
Labour has become a party for the educated middle classes, seems they're losing their share of the working class vote though, irrespective of age group.
So you are right, you can educate students into voting for the left. If you don't vote for Labour you must be stupid or un-educated. If only we could send everyone to university, [or re-education camps] then it'd be a Labour landslide every time. .
It’s about more than the leader boys and girls
Ssshhhhhh.... don’t tell Reg. he still thinks people sing his name at festivals, bless him...
Is someone going to tell him the election result at some point?
You’re right though. Probably best not to have a leader that all but 20 of your own MPs and most of the the countries population don’t think of as a useless, terrorist-sympathising, 70’s throwback, antisemitic old communist
It’s about the policies though comrade
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576000 members
The reason why Nandy is the greatest threat to the SNP isn't because she has an in depth understanding of Scottish politics. The reason is that she has done a lot of work looking at the issues around towns. Scotland outside the Central belt is essentially towns. Population density is low and distance from power both physically and psychologically large. Labour in Scotland needs to sort itself out and someone pro Union, who wants to level up and has a focus centred on the issues of place can only help.
My view is that she is a listener, a underestimated intellect and more left wing than often portrayed by those who seek to diminish her.
As a potential leader she is a rough diamond, she lacks the polish of Starmer and Thornberry, body language, posture and delivery all need work. She lacks "presence" they have and the resources of Long Bailey.
Politically she has been on a journey and I don't think it's stopped. A few years in opposition should see a polished performer with credible policies (subject to conference hospital passes).
Long Bailey is digging a big hole for herself and sinking fast
Starmer (like a lot of labour councillors who were heads of children's services) can't hide from the CSE issue when head of the CPS
Thornberry is toxic outside London and probably won't make the ballot
Of the candidates Nandy fits "least worst", but there are more positives going for her than that style of thinking would indicate.
Finally the best bit is that she never plays the BAME female tokenism card. Which is another point of PRIDE for Wigan and hopefully carefully observed by the metropolitan classes exemplified by TJ etc
Or maybe not because she is now of the North West and therefore the SE bubble fanboys such as Raybanwomble will just write her off as thick, as anyone who isn't in London must be
Big_n_daft
Yep.
Starmer may have the 'experience' but he's boring and got too much baggage. The best he could do is plug some holes in a sinking ship.
The best bit about Nandy is the best bit you referred to.
Labours general playing of identity politics is a form of divide and not rule. splitting people into groups just corrals people into a place where the tories can pick them off, group by group. It's in this respect I think Nandy is the most intelligent of the bunch.
Age doesn't matter, she'll grow up in the next five years, I don't think the others will.
Nandy is zero threat to the SNP simply because she has no understanding of the issues and thus cannot do anything to improve the position of the labour party in Scotland. the key thing to improve the labour partys standing in Scotland is to make it a separate entity to the English party able to formulate their own policies tailored to the scottish situation
zero threat
no understanding of the issues and thus cannot do anything
It’s great to see you’ve left your binary-ness behind these days teeJ and that it’s all nuance for you now.
Labour are polling dreadfully even with Keir as the favourite.
It’s about more than the leader boys and girls.
Seeing that there is no new leader and Labour have not changed in any way the polling with still be dreadful. Get a decent leader and give it 6 months for people to see the leader and the actions the leader has taken (with shadow cabinet, policy etc,.) and see what the polls do.
Its true tho. anyone with the slightest understand of Scotland would not have made that statement especially the bit about fighting nationalism with a social justice agenda - simply because the SNP run a social justice agenda! so wrong on diagnosis, wrong on treatment. Obviously wrong on both.
She may play well in England but until the labour party actually face up to what is happening in Scotland and produce some real policies tailored to the situation they will remain dead in Scotland.
SNP baaaaaaaaad / Union Good has been a disaster for them. More of the same will not change anything and thats all she offered.
I am gutted by the way labour have behaved in Scotland. I supported labour for 40 years
The labour party is finished in Scotland, whoever the leader is. Why? Because there is a credible non-tory party to vote for, which the majority of people are clearly happy to do. A lot of voters in England look enviously at that option. I know I do.
If the labour party in Westminster had any sense, instead of attacking the SNP, which is just bloody stupid and counter-productive, they'd be looking to what the SNP are doing right and learning the lessons to try and appeal to a broader cross-section of voters in the rest of the country.
Minus the nationalism obviously, because despite your assertion that this is a nice, cuddly, inclusive sort of nationalism, ALL nationalism is inherently toxic. The clue's in the title.
A lot of voters - indeed, the majority - are inherently anti-tory, but held their noses and voted for them, or didn't vote at all because the labour party, in its present form, is such an electoral basket case. Utterly rudderless and ineffectual, mired in a hopelessly outdated idealogical backwater, with clearly incompetent people at the helm (not to mention the communists behind the scenes), delivering a manifesto which was unbelievable, fantastical money-tree based nonsense (which the voters duly delivered their verdict on).
Only one of the present crop of leadership candidates has even acknowledged that, let alone shown a desire to address it.
One of them gave it ten out of ten and actually just stated 'our policies were very popular with voters'. Erm.... I can see a problem with that, 'Becky'...
And she's apparently the favoured candidate of those at the top of the party and 'the membership' as she has clearly stated she wants to deliver more of the same.
Unbelievable.
The labour party in Scotland is not finished at all. They could do plenty to recover their position. The first step needs to be separation from the english party. The reasons for their decline up here are not rooted in the same issues as the english party.
The main issues are that they have forgotten who the enemy is, their utilisation of the Bain principle and their sulky behaviour since they lost power
Agree Scotland is lost and not sure what Labour could do to get back the SNP seats.
Working with the SNP rather than against would be a good start. Stop the petty nonsense of voting down policies just because it wasn't theirs (like the renationalisation of Scotrail) at all levels of government. Come up with a credible alternative to independence (it's not like they didn't give us devolution so why not just go all out with Home Rule for everyone).
I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists, not because of the over interpreted comment in an interview, more the likelihood she will start to help the recovery of labour in Scotland
I have nothing to counter this with other than ROFL.
Labour need to make ground in Scotland. Apart from anything else IMO the SNP need a decent left wing opposition. In the last decade its the tories that have been the opposition while the labour MSPs have just sat back and sulked.
This. Say what you like about them, the Tories are at least competent and try to hold the SNP to account, I honestly can't remember the last time Labour did anything of note. Probably Gordon Brown in 2014 and he wasn't even an MSP.
Most people, despite your derisive and dismissive opinion of them, are more pragmatic than you think.
Yeah, like that time they voted for Corbyn anyway because despite it all it was still in their better interests. And like that time we rejected the Leave EU case as it was deomonstrably not in our best interests to go down that dark path.
Oh, wait...
A lot of voters – indeed, the majority – are inherently anti-tory, but held their noses and voted for them, or didn’t vote at all because the labour party, in its present form, is such an electoral basket case.
Something something pragmatism something
The reason is that she has done a lot of work looking at the issues around towns. Scotland outside the Central belt is essentially towns.
So she's basically no more than a provincial councillor? Excellent, that's just the sort of heavyweight credentials we've been looking for.
She may play well in England but until the labour party actually face up to what is happening in Scotland and produce some real policies tailored to the situation they will remain dead in Scotland.
Labour need to invest in it's Scottish political thought, devise a set of joined up policies and then hammer the SNP on health, education, transport, the economy. Dig into the quango spending and point to where the wealth that Scotland has is being misspent on
They are more likely to get that happening with Nandy than under Starmer of Long-Bailey
Indeed. One of the problems of successive labour leaders, going back decades is that despite paying lip-service to the regions, they're political instincts are as centrists (as in centralising power, not Blairism).
Corbyn was just the same as his predecessors in that respect. Maybe more so. All policy must be devised in London. In power it comes as dictat from Westminster. In Grandads case it was from the bunker under the allotment in Islington. But there has been no interest in the party for a long time in listening to any contributions from anyone outside the London/Westminster/Islington political bubble.
And thats all just come back to bite them on the arse. They ignored the interests of Scotland and lazily and arrogantly assumed people would just vote for them anyway. They didn't. And now the same just happened in the north and the midlands.
At the risk of sounding repetitive, that only seems to have sunk in with one of the candidates for leader. But then she's been saying it for years, while being ignored.
they’re political instincts are as centrists
All policy must be devised in London.
If localism is your thing then RLB's declared support for devolving power out of London and decentralising political activity should be appealing. It won't be though will it because it doesn't fit your 6th former fantasy.
I actually read that article when she published it. An absolute masterclass in mouthing platitudes while saying absolutely nothing.
I love this bit...
we should have used the aftermath of the referendum result to go around the country, holding public meeting after public meeting to stir up a movement for real change – pledging to take on the political establishment and raise up the people’s demands beyond our institutional arrangements with the European Union. That way, our manifesto could have become a set of popular remedies to deal with the three linked crises our country faces
And where were you when the party should have been doing that then Becky?
Oh yeah... Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
In Westminster. Helping write the party's manifesto.
like I said... platitudes. Meaningless lip-service
Like this comment from the FBU in support of RLB:
"There can be no going back to the so-called centrism of New Labour - we never again want to see our party turn its back on workers, public ownership, and its own members."
Looks like the Tories will be in for a lot longer than 10 years.
My god - I agree with squirrelking about scottish politics!
Nice to see Emily Thornberry has publicly apologised to the SNP for her hate remarks.
She sounded genuine. Kudos to her.
I'm sure a lot of people can see a scenario where Starmer wins, loses the next election and then Lisa Nandy, or another as yet unknown candidate is elected as Leader. There's a logic to it, put the experienced, stable candidate in, Nandy being too inexperienced for now. (caveat: I am of the view that the other candidates in the race are unconscionable,)
That'll be too late. It'll be Boris and the beurocrat. He'll run rings around him. I just can't see Starmer holding Boris to account and Labour could sink even lower.
The Labour heartlands wasn't a shock, it wasn't an accident. The Tories targeted that specific demographic, they knew what they were doing. For a decade segments of the Labour vote has been picked off why they wern't looking. This is the only thing Labour need to address right now, it's not about policy it's more about keeping and eye on where the next segment of voters you are about to lose are and what are you going to do about it.
Labour have got to realise they are not fighting the Tories anymore they are fighting Boris. All successful recent administrations have been double acts, Thatcher and Lawson, Blair and Brown, Cameron and Osborne. Boris is on his own. He has no faction behind him other than a public mandate. When you see any Tory minister rolled out it really doesn't matter what they say because the answer will all ways be what Boris wants, he will completely re-draw the Conservative party into whatever image he wants, factions in his own party will be powerless to stop him. If Labour come up with any good policy ideas Boris will steal them instantly, he isn't beholden to ideological forces to the degree that previous administrations have been.
My god – I agree with squirrelking about scottish politics!
Boris has his evil genius behind him. Dominic Cummings. You can hate him, but you have to respect his ability. He’s bloody good at what he does
Blair had Malcolm Tucker Alastair Campbell. Ditto.
Corbyn had a collection of clueless communist half-wits who’s only qualification was that they were part of his cabal
It doesn’t matter who they get in place as leader as much as who they get to support them
A month before the election all Corbyns useless, millionaire, privately educated idiots were given highly paid permanent contracts to keep them in place, whatever happened. All while junior staff at central office were handed redundancy notices in the wake of the election defeat that was all their fault. They’re now waging a campaign to get more of their mates in place on the highly paid party gravy train before the leadership election
Socialism, eh?
Got to love it
Isn’t it meant to be the Tory’s who are accused of cronyism?
Difficult to point that out while Len McClusky is sat at his table in the Ivy before getting a cab back to his million quid central London apartment, all paid for by union members subs
They’re charlatans and hypocrites. Snake oil salesmen who are only serving their own agendas. And they wonder why ‘their’ northern heartlands deserted them?
I can’t imagine why?
You really couldn’t make it up. Well... you could. They just did. Labours absolutely catastrophic election defeat,was nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn (peace be upon him), who is still absolutely bloody brilliant. It’s all the media’s fault apparently. So says the party’s own internal analysis concludes, led by the totally impartial Ian Lavery
One of these articles is satire
Labour's internal investigation was nothing more than a beatification process.
Momentum is a religious cult. Jeremy is more concerned with the state of his soul than the state of the country, more concerned with being right than getting it right, so when he turns up at the pearly gates of Marxist heaven he passes the audit and doesn't get held up in purgatory due to any previous ideological transgressions.
The fact that the Corbyn cronies got the fat cat contracts is disgusting. The fact that they are still there is more than disgusting. Can't they just take their sack of cash and **** off?. In the corporate world we're used to seeing failure rewarded with a huge severance payment, in the Labour party it seems you get to screw up, get the pay off but still get to stick around to screw it up again.
Binners - as you know, Lavery is a grasping, inarticulate, incompetent individual who rinsed the NUM.
Totally despicable.
When I lived on Tyneside his type were widely despised by the union members who funded them.
Lavery and others are still marching to a drum beat which has been out of sync for decades.
He's another living well on the back of others; not dissimilar to your mate McCluskey.
My dad was from the Rhondda, so I’ve grown up with the credo the Tories are not to be trusted, especially after the Tonypandy Riots.
I’m actually starting to think, however, the Tories are the more “honest” politicians. Yes they are looking after no1 and the interest of their ilk only. Any behaviour like the Hamilton’s, Aitkin etc is just them being true to form.
Whereas labour and union leaders whom one would expect to be more socially conscious are just as self serving, which to me makes them worse.
Len McClusky, Ian Lavery and their ilk are utterly shameless and self-serving. They’re no different from the Derek Hattons of the Militant tendency. Cozily lining the pockets of themselves and their cabal while mouthing prehistoric 70’s platitudes
They give no more of a shit about the people they’re meant to represent than the Tory’s do. Which plenty of people could see through, hence Borises massive majority. Not many people had any confidence that Jeremy and the clowns and millionaire Marxists around him offered a viable government
The fact that all but one of the leadership contenders of the Labour Party not only wont point this elephant in the room out, but continue to genuflect to these self-serving, egomaniacal dinosaurs means the Labour Party will continue its journey into total political irrelevance. A weird sect steadfastly stuck in the 1970’s
The rest of us are left with permanent Tory rule. Not that they care, as long as they can carry on with their pointless posturing while living nice cozy gold-plated lifestyles funded by union members subs and taxpayers
Jeremy Corbyn has been picking up his nice fat salary as ‘leader of HM opposition. I reckon we’ve got a good case for breach of contract there
He barely phoned it in
The lot of them are more interested in their gravy train than they are about their much much vaunted socialist values, which their own lifestyles do little to back up.
Charlatans and hypocrites, the lot of them