You have missed the point. They would not become criminals in the first place. They need a nice life from birth not after it has already gone wrong
By extension of that thinking no prisoner should ever be let back in to society as your statement indicates they will reoffend and can’t b rehabilitated as their life has already gone wrong.
As already pointed out there is no shortage of criminality further up the socio-economic chain, just different crimes committed.
I think my last post came across badly. I find this whole thread )and the different opinions contained within it) fascinating.
Do some people view certain, or indeed all, criminals as victims of circumstance or upbringing? Genuinely curious to know. I’m a big believer in taking charge of your own life, although I know how easy it can be to try and blame everything and everyone else other than yourself for how life turns out. As somebody stated earlier behavioural patterns can be extremely hard to break.
Anybody have recommended reading on the subject?
I’m a big believer in taking charge of your own life
I think the thing that's hard to reconcile is recognising that circumstances give certain people a much better start in life, while not taking away personal responsibility. Obviously some people can overcome very trying upbringings, and that should be commended.
I can see how the liberal mindset of 'blaming society' can be perceived as meaning people don't have to accept responsibility, but I feel like we should come at the issue from both angles. Seems to not be possible in our weird black and white world.
Do some people view certain, or indeed all, criminals as victims of circumstance or upbringing?
Its not as simple as an either or and if anyone knew what led to all criminal behaviour we would be able to eradicate it. All we know are what are the factors that exacerbates the risk. For example if you look at the incarceration rates of LAC [ looked after children - ie those brought up in care] and compare there incarcerations rates with the normal population then its hard to argue that the environment does not provide additional risk factors for these people. Of course not all of them end up in prison so there are also other factors at work- some see this as "personal responsibility or a moral compass" hence we can have this debate endlessly
Some people are just bad, some are made bad by their environment, some are down on their luck, some are just ****ers etc. There is no one simple cause *[ for all criminals] and the debate is more nuanced than a STW thread could cope with.
* i know a guy whose father solved every single issue with fights/violence and when old enough involved his kids in these fights [ started about 15 as he was a big lad]. the child ended up in prison, as an adult, for a variety of violence offences. Was this inevitable ? Probably not quite inevitable but was it much more likely than the father who did not do this to his child.
With what we know that seems the right result. But for most people, taking a life in almost any circumstance is no small thing. I hope he doesn't struggle with what happend and can get on with his own life without any negative side affects.
Arise Sir Osborn-Brooks
lets hope he gets all the help he requires.
Agreed taxi..
I had a really really good mate at school. We did a bit of partying with others once we reached the 17 ish mark. He was adopted as a baby, but by a wealthy local business owner. He knew the whole story. All was rosy for a while. He took liberties with money etc. I could see him going off the rails, as we reached 18, I started to distance myself from him as I could see it going south. He started pinching from shops, once when in tower records on a school trip. We both got pulled for that but let off due to my I like to think quick talking and charm. He then started pinching car steroes. He got ran over by the police one night whilst they were pursuing him. By now I'd stopped seeing him all together. He went to prison for a good while when things started getting serious, drugs etc.
He's now married a dad of two own house and car etc. That's an example of turning your life round and being an example to your children. Not like that ****tard who frankly deserved to meet his commumpance and I'll honestly say I'm glad he did. I hope the old boy doesn't suffer in any for his actions either lawfully or mentally.
Does the recent decision now open up Civil Claims by the family against the home owner ?
Career criminal enough said !
Hopefully not bikebouy, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it did. Old fella should be seeking counselling after what he’s been through. Must be a very traumatic situation to be in. My main concern would be reprisals against him. Hope he’s safe and well
Good article on self defense here:
https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/04/05/bashing-burglars-and-the-law-of-self-defence/
Does the recent decision now open up Civil Claims by the family against the home owner ?
On what grounds? he's been released without charge.
The police quite rightly arrested him whilst they investigated, and came to the conclusion he was simply defending himself and his wife from whatever thier intentions were, which given the nature of the situation, they weren't calling round for a cup of tea.
Unlawful Killing.
Its a thing, he was killed unlawfully.
Plenty of Civil cases backing up actions against perpetrators of the killing.
If it’s self defence, then it’s not unlawful killing, pretty much by definition. (IANAL etc)
It wasn’t unlawful he was killed using reasonable force which is covers up to lethal force. Hence why he has not been charged.
Yes they might look at a civil case but won’t be for unlawful killing as that’s not a civil offence.
At least that’s how I understand it.
Without getting into an internet fuelled argument, he was killed unlawfully. No one can kill lawfully unless they have Home Office approval.
Reason I bring it up is there are cases that have been brought against the offender, whether you agree or not, and the cases have been heard.
But without backing any of my points up, I’ve done no research on any cases.
Just a thought.
He was killed unlawfully
Nope, don’t think so.
A person is guilty of murder if he/she kills a person unlawfully (ie not in self defence or defence of another or accidentally, each of which provides an absolute defence)
Sauce;
Unlawful killing is a coroners verdict and would not be the correct one for this case.
what they going to sue for loss of earnings?
even if they could they are not going to win
Dunno, it was a thought I had earlier.
I’ll read that link tomorrow, thanks for posting it.
'If' this ever came about, it would confirm that this country is FUBARED.
I mean, it has been for years but it just hasn't been confirmed.
Without getting into an internet fuelled argument, he was killed unlawfully. No one can kill lawfully unless they have Home Office approval.
Reason I bring it up is there are cases that have been brought against the offender, whether you agree or not, and the cases have been heard.
But without backing any of my points up, I’ve done no research on any cases.
Just a thought.
Law changed in 2013
CPS info;
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/self-defence-and-prevention-crime
Subsection (5A) allows householders to use disproportionate force when defending themselves against intruders into the home.
Although, the conduct of the suspect resulted in severe injuries to another or even death, this conduct may well have been reasonable in the circumstances.
Just been reading about the shitbag burglar....
What goes around etc etc...
Just been reading about the shitbag burglar….
What goes around etc etc…
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/pensioner-burglar-stabbed-death-named-henry-vincent-london-hither-green-kent-a8290576.html
Aye, the old boy did us all a favour, I’d gladly buy him a pint.
The old boy did extremely well to overcome the scumbags and not get hurt, and I won't exactly be in mourning, but the way some of you are revelling in someone's death is pretty shameful TBH.
yes but that is because they are the good people Grum and have proper morals unlike the scumbag, its what separates us from them.
See also killing terrorists without trial.
A witness said his alleged accomplice dragged him away towards a white van before leaving him for dead. He described seeing a white Vauxhall Astra van pull up next to a man “moaning and groaning” and ”bleeding heavily from his chest through his shirt”.
The van’s driver attempted to drag the man into the vehicle before driving off north when he noticed he was being watched, the witness said.
Well, that’s what friends are for, covering your back, ets...
but the way some of you are revelling in someone’s death is pretty shameful TBH.
Get real FFS. Junky & I have 1st hand experience of the type of shitbag that Vincent was (along with his family from what I've read)
Until youv'e worked with them, done your'e utmost to rehabilitate them & realised it's futile...you really have no idea have you?
Anyway, 'revelling' is hardly the right word. More 'thankful'.
I'm always the first to jump to the defense of folk who are driven to criminality by poor fortune... and I havta say, I don' t think any crook worth his salt would be seeking redemption if they got injured in this particular line of duty.
it's a tired ol' cliche but live by the sword and all that
Dead pikey burglar?
What's the problem?
You stay classy sbob :-/
On influences in society
Crime rates go up and down with the prosperity of the country. when people become relativly poorer crime goes up, when people become relatively richer crime goes down
Societies that are more equal have less crime
Societies that use jail more and have punitive approach to crime have more crime, societies that us a rehabilitation approach in the criminal justice system have less crime. Jails are simply finishing schools for criminals when all you do is warehouse them
All 3 things are well proven
People on here are confusig influences on society as a whole and individual responsibility. Two very different things
The chap that this thread started about is released without charge
Until youv’e worked with them, done your’e utmost to rehabilitate them & realised it’s futile…you really have no idea have you?
I've worked in Young Offenders Units and prisons, and I still think your attitude is deeply unpleasant. I worked with one young person who told me 'the only thing I've ever been good at is fighting' and that his dad had taught him the only way to get respect was by being the hardest etc.
He was a total PITA to work with and I never felt like I got anywhere with him. Found out he got stabbed to death by a neighbour during an altercation not long afterwards. Suffice to say I just don't recognise/accept the callous lack of compassion and regard for human life displayed by you and numerous other posters.
I wouldn't want to 'revel' in anyone's death, but having seen the impact of burglaries on innocent people i have no patience with descriptions of it as "just a property crime", and i have little sympathy for a man who preys on pensioners.
By extension of that thinking no prisoner should ever be let back in to society as your statement indicates they will reoffend and can’t b rehabilitated as their life has already gone wrong.
Continuing to miss the point. It is not about reoffending and reahilitation it is about going down that route from an early age due to socioeconomic factors. Yes there are people who have low morals whatever the upbringing and they will rob in their own way (burglary or fraud etc,.) but the others may not have gone to crime if circumstances were different.
Ohh, plenty to read..
Thanks for the links. 👍
You must understand I do not support the actions of burglar, I too believe “reasonable force to defend yourself and your property” is erm.. reasonable.
What intrigues me is the Law or Regulation of both sides of the argument. I’ve spend 80% of my working life pulling apart or check/challenge Laws and Regulation within the Business environment and it interests me how Laws are considered when applied to scenarios... and this topic interests me because I’m fairly sure there are a few cases similar where civil actions have been raised...
it's one thing working with scumbags, it' another if you have been on the receiving end of a crime like burglary. the level of stress it caused me has made me very ill, and I'm suffering all sorts of mental issues I'm only 18 months later starting to get a handle on. the fact they were not caught, and robbed us in the hour we were out of the house (therefore watching us) leaves me freaking out even now at the slightst strange sound outside the house.
whilst I would not reveal in their untimely end I most certainly think it would be a good thing for society. Burglary should have a fair higher profile and be a higher priority for our police. if two blokes break into your home with a hammer it should be up there with armed robbery
@bikebuoy - "lawful killing" is the opposite to "unlawful killing" which is defined as killing without lawful excuse and in breach of criminal law. So it doesn't mean that a judge has given the go-ahead for someone to be killed, i.e. it's not a pro-active judgement it's reactive.
In this case self defence is seen as lawful excuse, I doubt there was any intent to kill or even injure the intruder. The householder's statement will have been checked against evidence at the scene and the post-mortem results. A single stab wound to the front abdomen consistent with a struggle vs multiple stab wounds to the back for example. There's also the comment that "after discussion with the CPS no charges will be brought" would indicate that the legal defence of self-defence would mean that if there was to be a prosecution it would be very unlikely to result in a guilty verdict.
Continuing to miss the point
Continuing to have a different opinion to you. That seems to be the point. You’ve said it yourself ‘may not have gone to crime’ lots of factors involved. You stated that the experiment wouldn’t work as ‘Life had already gone wrong’ ergo, give a 30 year old criminal a life whereby he has no need to commit crime, your statement indicates he will still commit crime does it not? That’s the same as shrugging and saying ‘criminal going to always be criminal because, hey, brought up poor’
Glad the victim has been released...he did exactly what the law allows any of us to do and protected himself and his property...
...the fact that a grubby thief lost its life is unfortunate for its family but the wider public won't lose any sleep.
If you go equipped to a robbery with a screwdriver (offensive weapon) you run the risk of being on the receiving end of similar...that's classic reasonable force in action.
Hoping the family of the criminal will understand this in time but I doubt it...listening to his family bleat on the news the other day was nauseating, you'd think he had every right to rob someone's house and it was a legitimate career choice from the way they were banging on...
...live by the sword, die by the sword 🔪
See also killing terrorists without trial
No issues with that, either..
Until youv’e worked with them, done your’e utmost to rehabilitate them & realised it’s futile
Its not futile, and it is difficult, but it can be done.
Just caught up on the story in that Indie link - still amazed that a old guy of nearly 80 was able to overpower a bloke under 40, but glad that the right man won.