If it were me I'd be happier being arrested and taken to a station for questioning than being questioned at home at the scene. I'd have a solicitor with me before saying anything and the converstaion should at least be recorded.
I am not a lawyer but aiui in order to arrest someone the police have to have reasonable grounds to suspect an offence has been committed, and that the arrestee has committed it. Wanting to question someone does not in itself provide grounds for arrest. In the circumstances, the presence of a corpse doesn’t really seem that suspicious to me. Though as I said before, I haven’t seen the body.
I am not a lawyer but aiui in order to arrest someone the police have to have reasonable grounds to suspect an offence has been committed, and that the arrestee has committed it. Wanting to question someone does not in itself provide grounds for arrest. In the circumstances etc. etc
luckily we had someone who is a Lawyer point out, one page1, that this is always what happens, and it’s totally standard practice to arrest in these situations.
So we don’t really need to examine the circumstances too closely.
There was reference to the 'Burgler' in inverted commas previously, surely they actually have to make it out of the house with some goodies to achieve burgler status? Aren't they more of an uninvited guest at this point? Like my booze sodden auntie turning up on Boxing day, even she doesn't deserve a sound stabbing.
Vincent was also placed on Kent Police's 'most wanted' list over another burglary, this time in Gravesend, in 2013.
I starting to doubt what I heard, but I'm sure I just heard on the local news Vincent's cousin describe him as a lovely bloke. Obviously in that case the Guiness fueled murderous grandad should go down for good.
Such a top bloke, lovely man, he'd rob anybody's house for me.
The interview with the dead guy's cousin on R4 PM yesterday was exactly what had previously been predicted on this thread.
I couldn't listen to it without a wry smile.
I applauded the cousin's bravery in going on the radio, but I found it hard to see the dead bloke as a victim, as she did.
Well that depends on what sort of life people have had and how much that has a bearing on how they turned out/what things they did.
A child of a single mother alcoholic who looked after themselves from the age of 8 and got into groups which led to a life of crime would to me be seen as a victim. One of those burglars that a lot of people on this thread seem more than happy to kill with their own hands could be that person.
kerley
Well that depends on what sort of life people have had and how much that has a bearing on how they turned out/what things they did.
A child of a single mother alcoholic who looked after themselves from the age of 8 and got into groups which led to a life of crime would to me be seen as a victim.
True, but that doesn't change the fact that unless you work for emergency services you probably won't want to get on the wrong end of such a person. If you're awakened by a disturbance in the middle of the night and you go downstairs and catch someone in the process of robbing you, protecting your family should be your main goal. Sympathy in that situation is going to get you further victimised/killed.
That's not to advocate murdering people with impunity, but the truth is some people are violent degenerate assholes / broken people and if you encounter a stranger in your home at night without invitation you have no way of gauging the limits of their intentions.
She said he was a nice man, loved his kids, and the 78 year old was wrong to have stabbed him. I don't condone arbitrary killing of folk, but I do think he couldn't have been that nice, breaking into pensioners homes tooled up with a mate.
Looks like he is from a family of scumbags. Lots of previous form for conning and robbing old folk. Seems like it's the family business, it may be a loss to them but it's societies gain.
She said he was a good father and a good son.
Gonna have to agree to disagree there. This is not a man who had a bad run of luck, got hooked on drugs and stole a couple of bikes or car stereos to fund his habit while trying to turn his life around. It was a long series of crimes against vulnerable people.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/05/burglar-killed-pensioners-home-wanted-previous-robbery/
How can you be a good father when that's the example you're setting?
Man breaks into your house to steal from you and he’s armed. Struggle tales place and he ends up dead. Good news story I’d say. Moral is don’t break into people’s homes.
There's an interesting Secret Barrister blog post from yesterday if anyone wants a good overview of the law surrounding self defence in this case.- https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/04/05/bashing-burglars-and-the-law-of-self-defence/
How can you be a good father when that’s the example you’re setting?
Who says he is setting it as an example/ Maybe his kids don't know anything about it and all they know is their dad spends time with them, develops them, is interested in them etc,.
My dad was a good father but I wouldn't know if he did any burglaries (he didn't get caught if he did)
Well that depends on what sort of life people have had and how much that has a bearing on how they turned out/what things they did.
A child of a single mother alcoholic who looked after themselves from the age of 8 and got into groups which led to a life of crime would to me be seen as a victim. One of those burglars that a lot of people on this thread seem more than happy to kill with their own hands could be that person.
This doesn’t wash with me. I had what many would describe as a pretty shitty upbringing and one thing I detest is people who use that as an excuse to be an utter dick. I’ve met (and grown up with) plenty of them. You’re responsible for your own actions.
It appears to me that the guy was a career criminal. Living that life has inherent risks attached to it. He gambled, he lost.
This doesn’t wash with me. I had what many would describe as a pretty shitty upbringing and one thing I detest is people who use that as an excuse to be an utter dick. I’ve met (and grown up with) plenty of them. You’re responsible for your own actions.
It appears to me that the guy was a career criminal. Living that life has inherent risks attached to it. He gambled, he lost.
^^^^^ this x 1000000%
forgive the goodwin but there is a great documentary on the children of senior Nazis - some of whom were brought up in concentration camps [ unaware of what was going on] and they struggled to reconcile the wonderful father with the Nazi scumbag. It is possible to be reprehensible and a good father
You’re responsible for your own actions.
You are going to have to explain why socio-economic factors are so strongly linked to crime. What is your explanation?
Some of you really need to read the parable of the sower
<span class="text Matt-13-1">That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake.</span><span id="en-NIV-23542" class="text Matt-13-2"><sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore.</span> <span id="en-NIV-23543" class="text Matt-13-3"><sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Then he told them many things in parables, saying: <span class="woj">“A farmer went out to sow his seed.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23544" class="text Matt-13-4"><span class="woj"><sup class="versenum">4 </sup>As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23545" class="text Matt-13-5"><span class="woj"><sup class="versenum">5 </sup>Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23546" class="text Matt-13-6"><span class="woj"><sup class="versenum">6 </sup>But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23547" class="text Matt-13-7"><span class="woj"><sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23548" class="text Matt-13-8"><span class="woj"><sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23549" class="text Matt-13-9"><span class="woj"><sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Whoever has ears, let them hear.”</span></span>
You are blaming the seed rather than seeing the wider picture. Yes I grew up in a poor area and i assure you more of my friends ended up criminals than the children who went to Eton.
Its simplistic to ignore all factors involved.
Thank God for the Secret Barrister - but obviously that piece only explains the legal situation, and doesn't help justify certain personal opinions.
You are going to have to explain why socio-economic factors are so strongly linked to crime. What is your explanation?
Some people refuse to be responsible for themselves. See rule number one ‘Don’t be a dick”
I’m not disputing the fact he could have been a decent father to his kids. He lived a life of crime and paid the ultimate price for doing so. He chose a certain life and paid for that choice.
I too have plenty of old acquaintances who are now dead, serving time or have served time. Considering my socio-economic background why aren’t I a criminal. You’ll need to explain that?
JUNKYARD
You are going to have to explain why socio-economic factors are so strongly linked to crime. What is your explanation?
Some of you really need to read the parable of the sower
<span class=”text Matt-13-1″>That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake.</span><span id=”en-NIV-23542″ class=”text Matt-13-2″><sup class=”versenum”>2 </sup>Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore.</span> <span id=”en-NIV-23543″ class=”text Matt-13-3″><sup class=”versenum”>3 </sup>Then he told them many things in parables, saying: <span class=”woj”>“A farmer went out to sow his seed.</span></span> <span id=”en-NIV-23544″ class=”text Matt-13-4″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”>4 </sup>As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.</span></span> <span id=”en-NIV-23545″ class=”text Matt-13-5″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”>5 </sup>Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.</span></span> <span id=”en-NIV-23546″ class=”text Matt-13-6″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”>6 </sup>But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.</span></span> <span id=”en-NIV-23547″ class=”text Matt-13-7″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”>7 </sup>Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.</span></span> <span id=”en-NIV-23548″ class=”text Matt-13-8″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”>8 </sup>Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.</span></span> <span id=”en-NIV-23549″ class=”text Matt-13-9″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”>9 </sup>Whoever has ears, let them hear.”</span></span>
You are blaming the seed rather than seeing the wider picture. Yes I grew up in a poor area and i assure you more of my friends ended up criminals than the children who went to Eton.
Its simplistic to ignore all factors involved.
And how is this going to effect your decision making when you encounter a complete stranger in your house in the middle of the night who's motives are criminal at best?
kerleyWho says he is setting it as an example/ Maybe his kids don’t know anything about it and all they know is their dad spends time with them, develops them, is interested in them etc,.
My dad was a good father but I wouldn’t know if he did any burglaries (he didn’t get caught if he did)
I totally disagree with that. A huge part of being a good father is setting yourself as an example.
Going to work every day or working hard to find a job.
Following the law.
Being kind to people.
Those things are tricky to demonstrate when you repeatedly get caught for stealing large sums from vulnerable people and go to jail, do it again when you get out, and then (while already being publicised as a wanted man) getting stabbed to death by somebody defending their home which you were invading.
If he'd gone to jail then come out and gone straight, and used it as a life lesson for his kids "don't be an idiot like I was". Yeah sure, he could be a great dad. But he didn't, so he's not.
Some people refuse to be responsible for themselves.
And some people refuse to recognise how their relatively advantageous background has benefited them and made life easier for them.
how is this going to effect your decision making when you encounter a complete stranger in your house in the middle of the night who’s motives are criminal at best?
WHAT ?we were discussing what were the factors likely to lead to someone being a criminal you have completely missed the point of the post- very odd as others got the point.
Considering my socio-economic background why aren’t I a criminal. You’ll need to explain that?
Socio -economic factors are a cause, and as you note, it interacts with other factors. It alone is not a cause but it cannot be ignored either- i never said anyone in poverty ends up a criminal but statistically it is much more likely than those born into wealth.
Basically it is much harder for the seed that falls on the stony ground to thrive. Some of us will, i did you did but not all of us did. Do you think if we all swapped to massively wealthy estates and the lap of luxury those that failed would have all had exactly the same outcomes? If you do not you have to accept that socio economic aspects are factors and al we can do is discuss the extent.
Is this actually true though? Had a brief google but couldn't find anything so would be interesting in seeing those stats. I'd agree that poorer people are more likely to commit violent crime like robbery or burglary but then richer people are way more likely to commit financial, fraudulent/confidence crimes etc. Some people would just rather take than earn legally, I don't think their background particularly matters.i never said anyone in poverty ends up a criminal but statistically it is much more likely than those born into wealth.
I think it's possible to both see the wider picture and not mourn an utter toerag like this.
Isn't it?
junkyard
how is this going to effect your decision making when you encounter a complete stranger in your house in the middle of the night who’s motives are criminal at best?
WHAT ?we were discussing what were the factors likely to lead to someone being a criminal you have completely missed the point of the post- very odd as others got the point.
Yes yes, everyone's blown away by the profundity of your analysis re the socio-economic factors that lead to criminality. You're amazing, erudite, empathetic and you come from the hood. We see that. However, since the thread is about the actions of a home owner, in the heat of the moment, and the thread is called "Murder or reasonable force?" it's amazing that you cannot tie the two aspects together and consider that your SJW waffle is irrelevant to the victim of a crime while that crime is being perpetrated upon them. It's very odd as others can see that one is relevant to the other.
Or are you reverting to your meta deconstructionist troll character where you're not concerned with making coherent points or representing you own views honestly?
And some people refuse to recognise how their relatively advantageous background has benefited them and made life easier for them.
If if that was aimed directly at me then you couldn’t be further from the mark to be honest.
Do you think if we all swapped to massively wealthy estates and the lap of luxury those that failed would have all had exactly the same outcomes?
Not all no, but I truly believe some people are just wrong uns and would commit crime regardless. It would be interesting as an experiment though. Provide a bunch of criminals with a nice life, see how many thrive and how many carry on as before.
You also have to factor in that immorality committed by the rich and powerful is often legalised, or at best requires individuals to sue rather than being dealt with by the state criminal system.
I think it’s possible to both see the wider picture and not mourn an utter toerag like this.
Isn’t it?
Erm... this is the internet, 'pick a side, be a dick about it'
I think it’s possible to both see the wider picture and not mourn an utter toerag like this.
Isn’t it?
You could well say the world is a better place without him in it but the world would be much better still if he hadn't ending up being the way he was.
I’ve sympathy for the family, they’ve lost a husband & father, but I’ve SFA all for him.
Can’t do the time? Don’t do the crime..
A career criminal who came to an appropriate end. Breaking into a pensioners home? Scum, didn’t deserve to live.
The socio blah blah I’m not getting into.
If if that was aimed directly at me then you couldn’t be further from the mark to be honest.
No it wasn't sorry, I don't know your circumstances obviously. I see it all the time though. Very easy for people to see themselves as 'self-made' and discount all the help they have received.
It’s heartbreaking that society creates an environment where someone felt they had little or no recourse other than being a career criminal - but, that’s where my sympathy ends.
You could well say the world is a better place without him in it but the world would be much better still if he hadn’t ending up being the way he was.
This.
No it wasn’t sorry
No problem 👍🏼
It’s heartbreaking that society creates an environment where someone felt they had little or no recourse other than being a career criminal
Was it society’s fault or did he choose that path? I don’t know either way, but I don’t believe it’s thst simple.
Or are you reverting to your meta deconstructionist troll character where you’re not concerned with making coherent points or representing you own views honestly?
all that ad hom, to garner a response, and then you call me a troll.
Some days I just love the internet and the amazing , weird and strange characters it presents.
Wow, that Telegraph article is a depressing read.
[i]Junkyard wrote:[/i]
You are blaming the seed rather than seeing the wider picture. Yes I grew up in a poor area and i assure you more of my friends ended up criminals than the children who went to Eton.
The kids who went to Eton just ended up being the sort of criminals who the government bailed out when it went all wrong for them. 👿
Not a totally facetious point - given sufficient opportunity, amoral scumbags don't have to go round burgling people's houses to make a living.
given sufficient opportunity, amoral scumbags don’t have to go round burgling people’s houses to make a living.
Give a man a fish...
Give a man a bank...
It would be interesting as an experiment though. Provide a bunch of criminals with a nice life, see how many thrive and how many carry on as before.
You have missed the point. They would not become criminals in the first place. They need a nice life from birth not after it has already gone wrong
Not all no, but I truly believe some people are just wrong uns and would commit crime regardless. It would be interesting as an experiment though. Provide a bunch of criminals with a nice life, see how many thrive and how many carry on as before.
I think current thinking is that a lot of the damage is done during pretty early development. By the time people reach even teenage years a lot of attitudes and behaviours are firmly entrenched and it becomes very difficult to change them.
I’d agree that poorer people are more likely to commit violent crime like robbery or burglary but then richer people are way more likely to commit financial, fraudulent/confidence crimes etc. Some people would just rather take than earn legally, I don’t think their background particularly matters.
Hypothesis; there's also a socio economic pyramid, there are more 'poor' people, and 'poor' people are more likely to commit crimes like robbery or burglary than white collar crimes.... there are less people at the top of the pyramid and the crimes they're more likely to commit are siphoning money off pension funds, fraud, ponsi schemes, etc. And because the base is wider than the apex there will be more robbers than pension fraudsters.
I wonder what the numbers are proportionally - once corrected for total numbers how much more likely are you to follow a life of crime just because you were born on the wrong side of the tracks?