[Closed] Mountain Rescue Member Down

Agree. And asshats who don’t abide by the guidelines should be given a good finger wagging.

Travelling from Liverpool and Leicester is blatantly not allowed at the moment, ****s. Hope for a speedy recovery.

Not good, hope he's okay. Those pair will get rightly pilloried in the press for this, bawbags.

£200 fine for leaving a guy in his 60's with "significant" injuries? Fud.

£200 fine for leaving a guy in his 60’s with “significant” injuries? Fud.

That wasn't the offence they were fined for, and the mountain rescue teams, as ever, have specifically asked people on social media to not get involved in the ways and wherefores.

This could have happened outside of a pandemic and lockdown. I’m not defending the campers.

Its a reminder that these volunteers are out there in all weathers if it goes wrong. It certainly can’t be an easy rescue for the team having to respond to their own member.

It could have happened outside of lockdown but this exact incident would have been avoided had the pair not travelled from Leicester and Liverpool, smashing Rule 1 into smithereens.

I know you said that on the other thread too, MCTD, and I understand that MR are there to do this duty, realise the risks, and have asked not to comment on that.

But this isn't just a normal MR incident. It's two people that have travelled substantial distance during a pandemic, against the current restrictions. You can't uncouple the two, they should not have been there but because they were this has happened.

When I'm sticking to going within 5 miles of home, not MTBing because I think it's too risky, yes I'm pretty pissed off when others just flaunt it. And I'm not the one who'll be dealing with life changing injuries.

Everybody just needs to chill the **** out. And no I'm not saying its fine to travel long distances for exercise, but lockdown has nothing whatsoever to do with this accident.

Bollocks, they should not have been there. They were wild camping on Red Screes in winter in a Storm.

There is no justification for their self-entitled selfish behaviour. I hope they get cat AIDS and die on the way home.

If this has happened 12 months ago it would of just been an unfortunate accident.

It shouldn't of happened now though, this should be the quietest time ever for the MRTs.

That wasn’t the offence they were fined for, and the mountain rescue teams

He shouldn't need to be on a shout during a lockdown for a pair of arses who shouldn't be there.

Why would you go wild camping in this weather unless you were practicing for an expedition, and then surely you go somewhere you don’t need rescuing from.

but lockdown has nothing whatsoever to do with this accident

Apart 2 guys being somewhere they shouldn’t be of course due to lockdown rules.

But this isn’t just a normal MR incident

But it was though. These guys put themselves on the line for people who've made a stupid decisions week in, week out. The fact that there was a breach of lockdown leading to this call out is swaying opinions here. The logical extension is that anyone needing MR for being daft shouldn't get help or should pay for the service, and none of us want that. Especially MR people.

The logical extension is that anyone needing MR for being daft shouldn’t get help or should pay for the service, and none of us want that.

That seems illogical to me. Why would charge them? The rescue is the same yes but they should not have been there due to lockdown rules, not because of a trespass,  it because of the weather forecast or not because bikes aren’t allowed on that route.

Why would you go wild camping in this weather

Perhaps because they enjoy it (or, alternatively, because social media has told them they should enjoy it)?

These two guys, given where they travelled from under the current circumstances, are clearly over entitled assholes, and it's very unfortunate for the MRT individual (and his family).

But, as others have said, this incident could have happened any time. Covid has no bearing on the specifics of this case. MRT members are volunteers. It's not their job, they don't have to do it; they choose to do it, for often complex human reasons.

I am uneasy about MRTs being portrayed as the moral guardians and gatekeepers of the hills and, to be fair, they largely avoid doing that themselves (although they've been treading a fine line lately). However, there's a vocal subset of the outdoors community (whatever THAT is) that regard them as saints keeping 'us' safe from harm. Nope. The only person keeping me safe from harm is me, applying my judgement and learned experience.

A wider conversation needs to be had about personal responsibility, and the role of modern MRTs in an outdoor leisure industry that's changed beyond all recognition from when MRTs first started to evolve. I feel the CRO is still close to its origins: experienced cavers helping out fellow enthusiasts who've had a bit of bad luck. MRTs in honey pots like the Lakes and Peak District? Less so....

I realise some people will jump on this post and miscontrue what I've said.

I broadly agree with what you have said. The leader of the Cairngorms team set out the arguments for and against paid/insurance very well about 10 years ago in his autobiography. If anything pressure on the teams has increased in that time.

Heard about this on FB and predictably it has descended into madness with posters wishing harm on the campers and demanding they be fined £5million instead of £200.

I don't agree with what the campers did, but where do you draw the line? What about someone injuring themselves doing non essential DIY at home and requiring help from the emergency services?

Spot on Montgomery.

Apart 2 guys being somewhere they shouldn’t be of course due to lockdown rules.

THIS.

I agree Montgomery.

There is an understandable frustration with not only irresponsible behaviour on the hill but irresponsible lockdown breaches. The lockdown breach is a separate issue however, and one they are fined £200 for.

Our local MRT also seem to spend a lot of time assisting the police searching for vulnerable people who've gone missing, sometimes in fairly urban areas. They seem to have become an extension of the blue light services in that respect, rough ground search and rescue. One wonders whether this should be paid for by the tax payer. As said above their call outs are along way from the original ethos.

As for the campers, they should have the book thrown at them for blatantly breaking lock down rules, not the injury to the MET volunteer.

Also maybe those on the cycle to Cardiff for work thread who think it's a good idea might want draw some parallels.

if any of the guys camping were carrying the virus, they could well have just infected all the rescuers and their families. That's the risk the lockdown is there to avoid. thats the fundamental. Breaching lockdown to enjoy the Lakes while everyone else is stuck at home is another aspect which just makes them c**ts.

Remember that a significant proportion of most members of MRTs are already members of the emergency services or involved in health care.

At the start of the first lockdown last March I was speaking to the team leader of one of the Lakes' MRTs and his team was 40% down in manpower due to either self-isolation for whatever reason or being frontline medical staff. He said that figure was typical for all the Lakes' MRTs.

Certainly during the first lockdown the legislation explicitly prohibited overnight stays away from your home unless under specific circumstances.

“6.—(1) No person may, without reasonable excuse, stay overnight at any place other than the place where they are living.”

The following is a quote from a conversation (last year) with a senior officer with Cumbria Police about the above:

There are some exceptions that are not really relevant to this debate. In response to an issue that was raised earlier in the week I have taken legal advice on possible interpretations of this wording. This advice concludes that the act of being somewhere other than your home overnight in any manner is a breach of the Regulations and potentially enforceable. As you will be aware numerous campers & campervanners have been fined in relation to this Regulation recently.

... but the legal advice is clear that being anywhere other than your home constitutes an offence, regardless of whether you are stationary or sleeping.

As others have stated, we should not conflate the breaking of the lockdown rules with the unfortunate incident to the MR team member. My hope is that his injuries aren't as serious as currently being reported and that he mends quickly.

A couple of points to consider.

Being in MRT carries risk, no problem at all with that. Currently though that risk is higher. Attending a callout forces multiple people who would not otherwise be in contact to be crammed in a Land Rover and otherwise up close and personal. Sitting in a group shelter, administering first aid, prolonged stretcher carries and time in base cleaning down and sorting equipment, all avoidable activities that increase risk.

In most areas MRT are not currently in a priority group for vaccinations and most MRT insurance policies will not cover loss (including loss of earnings) resulting from COVID as it would be nearly impossible to prove where you caught it

Just stick to Rule Number 1 and everything will (usually) be fine.

You can't conflate the action (going on a jolly to the Lakes despite Covid restrictions) with the unintended outcome. No one goes with the intention of getting caught out but it's a risk they have taken and someone else appears to have borne the brunt of it. That's the same for any travellers who flout the restrictions though.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone caught in the Lakes for leisure right now (while the rest of us are all suffering and staying at home!) can have a hefty fine. They're all taking the same irresponsible risk these guys appear to have taken.

I was speaking to the team leader of one of the Lakes’ MRTs and his team was 40% down in manpower due to either self-isolation for whatever reason or being frontline medical staff. He said that figure was typical for all the Lakes’ MRTs.

One would hope that their call-out rate at the moment is reduced by more than that 40% but perhaps I'm being too optimistic.

It sounds like a bad accident though. I hope the guy who was injured makes a good recovery.

Being in MRT carries risk, no problem at all with that. Currently though that risk is higher. Attending a callout forces multiple people who would not otherwise be in contact to be crammed in a Land Rover and otherwise up close and personal. Sitting in a group shelter, administering first aid, prolonged stretcher carries and time in base cleaning down and sorting equipment, all avoidable activities that increase risk.

In most areas MRT are not currently in a priority group for vaccinations and most MRT insurance policies will not cover loss (including loss of earnings) resulting from COVID as it would be nearly impossible to prove where you caught it

This. MRT members accept risk, but that does not at any time give us carte blanche to factor them in as a backstop when planning and provisioning an activity. At the moment that is particularly true, as the consequences for team members, many of whom are aged 50+, could be very severe. Any kind of injury which requires hospital treatment right now is not a trivial situation, as there is an increased chance of both transmission in a hospital environment, and less than optimal care because the system is on its knees.

You cannot eliminate risk in cycling, or winter hillwalking, but the whole point of staying local is to reduce the risks involved in both the activity and the journey to reach it.

I can only hope the MRT member involved heals up quick.

The only issue I'd have with this is that the maximum penalty is too soft. The pair of fuds can't be charged with the very unfortunate events that followed, but the punishment for travelling for a hill camp hours from where they both reside needs to be increased, enough that it'll make these type of selfish folks think again.

this should be the quietest time ever for the MRTs.

I'd sincerely hope it is in the Lakes, but I know my local MRT have been very busy because lockdown prompted everyone to go and get some fresh air and exercise on the local hill (a good thing) at the same time as it got coverd in snow and ice (not so good).

So they've mainly been scooping up middle-aged or elderly people who've slipped over in trainers, or young adults who've broken a leg while sledging.

Plus the missing persons searches mentioned above.

They aren't normally the sort of MRT that preaches, but they did suggest people should consider their actions in the cold weather. Which I don't think is overstepping the mark really.

I must be being a bit thick cos I can't divorce the two elements. It seems highly contrived to claim the effects on the poor MRT bloke are unrelated to the guys being out against current regs.

They shouldn't have been there - not because of bad planning, poor mountain judgement, bad luck, Swiss cheese holes aligning but because we're in a pandemic and if it's not absolutely illegal, it is bloody brainless.

If they weren't there, neither would the poor ****er who now has 'serious and life changing injuries'. Yes he knew the risks, yes he might have been injured at any other time but he wasn't. He was injured attending to those two ****s being imbeciles.

Finally, yes it's not illegal to be an imbecile so they've been fined for COVID-19 infractions rather than moronity (made up word of the day kids...) though I thought the amount was now £800 for utter tossers not £200.

BTW climber/mountaineer etc since the early '80's so some experience of this area though thankfully not via a direct rescue (yet...).

http://www.rescuebenevolent.fund/

Finally, yes it’s not illegal to be an imbecile so they’ve been fined for COVID-19 infractions rather than moronity (made up word of the day kids…) though I thought the amount was now £800 for utter tossers not £200.

I think the higher fine is for mass gatherings and the lower fine for individuals breaching travel rules (happy to be corrected)

though I thought the amount was now £800 for utter tossers not £200.

I realise some people will jump on this post and miscontrue what I’ve said.

Montgomery - probably! But I'd support it entirely. I'd also add that whilst there was a rescue, it was to someone experiencing chest pains. That sort of medical situation can befall any of us, anywhere, at anytime. Of course they shouldn't have been there at that time - but had it been someone local walking a local trail who got in bother I still suspect that there would be people blaming the casualty for the rescuer's injuries.

if any of the guys camping were carrying the virus, they could well have just infected all the rescuers and their families. That’s the risk the lockdown is there to avoid. thats the fundamental.

Actually the risk is bigger than that - the chain of transmission is not just from camper to team, its from team member to team member, potentially paramedics (air/land/CG winchman) to team (and vice versa).

The only issue I’d have with this is that the maximum penalty is too soft. The pair of fuds can’t be charged with the very unfortunate events that followed, but the punishment for travelling for a hill camp hours from where they both reside needs to be increased, enough that it’ll make these type of selfish folks think again.

I'd agree. I'm not sure the MAX penalty is too soft though - but the oversimplistic use of fixed penalties is. I haven't studied the regs in detail, but ordinarily, where a fixed penalty is an option, it is precisely that an option, and the prosecution should have the discretion to refer to court instead (that can work both ways, there may be times when a FP is too harsh, but also too soft).

Two weeks ago, two women who had travelled from Fife to walk up Ben Lomond and called the rescue team were charged with Culpable and Reckless Conduct (see here).  Last week two men who had travelled from Glasgow to Ben Nevis and had to be rescued from Minus Two Gully were issued with a fixed penalty notice for breaching the coronavirus regulations (see here).  The first is a very serious offence,with a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.  The second is a minor offence (£60 fine reduce to £30 for prompt payment), which is deal with administratively (like a parking ticket) and which does not result in a criminal record.

http://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2021/02/06/the-criminalisation-of-outdoor-recreation-during-the-covid-crisis/

They were two people camping in a remote part of the UK in the middle of winter. Very few people would want to do it even if they could. The injury to the Mountain Rescue chap whilst unfortunate has nothing to do with lockdowns or covid or otherwise.

It's very unfortunate what happened, but these things do happen. Leave your internet smugness at the door and let's get on.

The injury to the Mountain Rescue chap whilst unfortunate has nothing to do with lockdowns or covid or otherwise.

Please explain how this is the case? The law says they shouldnt have been there. If they had done what is within the law then MRT wouldnt have needed to go out.

Perhaps if you live in Ambleside you could have walked up there to camp, and then it would have been an unfortunate rescue but you could still argue going out and putting yourself at risk at the moment is a very selfish attitude.

I never fail to be impressed by the level of vitriol aimed at folk who have to call out the MRT who fail to meet with some “standard of preparedness”deemed acceptable by the internet.

yes these particular guys made a bad judgement, but they didn’t do it thinking that they’d have to call out the MRT. Would folk have preferred he just quietly snuffed it on the hillside? As that could’ve been the alternative to calling for help. Yes, I understand that the answer is probably “ they shouldn’t have been there” but they were, so what would you have done?

All the angry posts seem entirely at odds with the responses of various MRT teams who invariably call for calm, and are often totally ignored by folk who would otherwise claim to be their supporters. Weird

You're right.
**** it. Let's just all do what we want because someone else will deal with any problems.

because someone else will deal with any problems.

so chest pains then? Couple of paracetamol..? There are some problems that are always going to end up “with someone else dealing with it”

It’s very unfortunate what happened, but these things do happen. Leave your internet smugness at the door and let’s get on.

If one of your mates got knocked off their bike by a car but it was a genuine accident you would be upset but you could probably reconcile it as an accident.

If your mate got knocked off by someone who wasn't allowed to be driving in the first place, I suspect you wouldn't be saying "these things happen".

But hey, he chose to go our riding and knew the risks.

yes these particular guys made a bad judgement, but they didn’t do it thinking that they’d have to call out the MRT. Would folk have preferred he just quietly snuffed it on the hillside? As that could’ve been the alternative to calling for help. Yes, I understand that the answer is probably “ they shouldn’t have been there” but they were, so what would you have done?

A bad judgement would be maybe to a lamb bhuna when you really should have ordered a chicken biryani. Planning and then driving from two different cities to climb a mountain during a national lockdown isn't a "bad judgement". Its retarded.

Would folk have preferred he just quietly snuffed it? Well, yes I would given that their quite staggering stupidity not only broke national lockdown rules but put others at risk which has resulted in someone who yes, knew the risks of being in the MRT but shouldn't have been out dealing with morons on a mountain.

Blunt but sometimes natural selection should just be left to run its course.

We’ve now reached the stage of some really genuinely unpleasant sentiments being expressed on this thread. I’m out.