MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
We have 5 year old (non-identical) twins and both have strops now and again as you'd expect at that age.
However, one has real emotional outbursts - for example, this morning she got up and was fine then something just clicked and everything was wrong for her - her school tights were uncomfortable, she was cold, we hadn't sat with her 'properly' at breakfast etc. She then went on to say she 'just wanted' to hit things, wanted to say 'poo' (she knows she isn't allowed to say naughty words). She calmed down a little for a bit but then 20 minutes later we had it again, her shoes weren't right, she wanted her blankie etc etc etc. We get these sort of outbursts most days and we've tried talking to her, listening to why she is so angry, ignoring her, shouting at her, rewarding her etc.
She often says things like 'I don't like you looking at me' or 'I don't like it when people talk to me'. She also hates being praised - if she does a nice drawing or says something funny and we respond she'll say 'don't say that' and often it leads to tears and her running away to hide.
This morning I was *VERY* close to running away to hide....
🙁
My little lad (also a non-identical twin) can get a bit aggressive and angry when he's overtired and stressed. (Or when I tell him to stop playing Minecraft with his mates, but that's quite normal.)
Presumably she's just started school this term? It can be very tiring and stressful, for some kids at least, for the first couple of terms at this age.
No it's their second year and she has actually settled into the new year better than she finished her first (although we have had a dip since coming back after the half-term holiday, mainly due to having lovely lazy time as a family which she really enjoyed).
Another example, put them to bed last night and we give them a choice of mummy or daddy holding their hands for a minute after bedtime book has finished. Her sister wanted mummy, she wanted me so I said 'fine, we'll both do it then' but she kicked off saying she wanted me to hold her sister's hand too.
What Martin said,
My Lad is 9 now, but at 5-6 he was an emotional little tyke - this coincided with him starting school 'proper' he loved reception class but hated year 1 - at first we just thought it was because it was more work and less play - but he said his teacher was mean, we told him over and over that he couldn't expect to play all the time - but he kept saying she wasn't very nice.
In fairness to the Lad, fist time I met her a parents evening, I knew he was right - she was a Dick, couldn't wait for that year to end.
It'll be worth asking how school is going etc - it could be deferred angst.
Sounds like my youngest when she's tired...
I don't think anyone on here should be trying to 'diagnose' anything.
Talk to her teacher and see if she exhibits the same behaviours at school would be my first step.
Then give it a couple of months and if it hasn't changed then talk to someone who's a professional.
[edit] maybe that sounds over dramatic. I think I mean, 'find out if she's just a bit stroppy at home and give her time to adjust to being at school, new routines etc'.
My two certainly were little angels at school, but all that enthusiasm and good behaviour meant they saved up all their stroppy, unreasonable side for us at home. Which I suppose was a good thing, because it meant home for them was a safe environment to release all that pent-up stress/emotion.
Not so good for us, though, and at 5 years old, it's hard to reason with it. I still think we start school way too early in this country.
Transition from reception to year 1 is a big change in the teacher/pupil atmosphere in most schools.
I don't think anyone on here should be trying to 'diagnose' anything.
This. Of the gazillions of variables, unless there's a continual issue over a long period it could be anything. They are growing, learning and experiencing things that their brains are adapting too at an alarming rate. Its not easy for them, and its hard for them to know why its not easy.
Just roll with it. If she starts killing animals on a more disciplined basis than burning ants with a magnifying glass or burns the house down, seek professional help. 😀
I suppose a lot of the reason for asking this isn't for a diagnosis, rather than the reassurance that we aren't the only ones experiencing such things - we only have her twin sister to benchmark against and (although she does have strops as I said before) she is overall more emotionally developed.
Sounds normal. Got a 4 year old going on 15 that "Hates" everyone and "I'm not listening to you"
So if she is normal, it's the quiet one we need to be watching out for when we are sleeping is it?
i work in Special needs education, I suggest you ask for a referral to an educational psychologist for an assessment. Sounds as though she is possibly frustrated, possibly there's a conflict between cognitive and verbal IQ which can result in dyspraxic tendencies - how is her balance and ability to catch a small ball?
Difficult to tell without knowing her but it's worth checking, tends to be a male problem more than girls though.
Sounds as though she is possibly frustrated, possibly there's a conflict between cognitive and verbal IQ which can result in dyspraxic tendencies - how is her balance and ability to catch a small ball?
Interesting, do go on...
Our 4-year-old has strops - generally it seems when she thinks we're being patronising. She taught herself to read at age 3, but is physically less confident than other kids, and can't catch.
Ben, busy at moment but will come back to thread tonight - loads of stuff on net including alternative therapies of which some really work!
how is her balance and ability to catch a small ball
Balance is pretty good - she does gymnastics and has done ballet so can do beams and pirouettes. Catching seems fine too, although we don't do loads of it.
I suppose a lot of the reason for asking this isn't for a diagnosis, rather than the reassurance that we aren't the only ones experiencing such things - we only have her twin sister to benchmark against and (although she does have strops as I said before) she is overall more emotionally developed.
All kids develop differently - our twins are so diametrically opposed in all areas and developing at different speeds that it's hard to try to find a baseline for comparison. But even for us there's a tendency to compare and contrast and wonder if one or other of them is behaving normally. And despite being a boy and a girl, quite a few people asked us if they were identical...
Regarding dyspraxia, I have just read up on it and she doesn't seem to display many of the signs - she learned to walk before her first birthday (in fact she achieved most developmental milestones early such as rolling, sitting up etc) , runs well, never bumps into things and has good spatial awareness (moreso than her sister).
Still can't ride a bike though, but's that's our fault for not getting them out enough on them.
Ben, busy at moment but will come back to thread tonight - loads of stuff on net including alternative therapies of which some really work!
Well, she's not got dyspraxia - at least doesn't fit any of the lists of symptoms I've read. I was just interested with the connection with being able to catch.
johndoh - very much like our daughter. For her, I think it's not anything clinically wrong with her, it's just that she gets frustrated with being treated like a child. It's when she thinks we're laughing at her or patronising her that she gets stroppy.
This is a great book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00APJOY3A?btkr=1
Sounds like hippy nonsense, but it worked for us with a child with very similar behaviours.
My two certainly were little angels at school....they saved up all their stroppy, unreasonable side for us at home
I have to smile at this. I've three and the eldest and youngest are great at school and right moody gits at home.
The middle one is the calmest and happiest at home, but a complete liability at school.
g5604
Err, we have that 😳
We were just saying this morning that we should pick it up and start reading it properly again...
@Johndoh, if it makes you feel any better I have twins who are about to turn 4 in a few weeks, also a boy and a girl.
My little girl is amazing but can have episodes now and again but it usually tiredness that can cause it. She went nuts at me when I was dressing her the other day because I didn't make her laugh when doing so. I think it's just part of them developing. At pre school Nursery we get told how polite and patient they are in class and we are doing a fantastic job but like someone mentioned above they save it all for us at home. The hardest part of the day is when I get them at lunchtime when Nursery has finished, they are not good eaters in the morning no matter what they try. My daughter has snacks at Nursery and my boy is a bit fussier and will only eat yoghurts at if thats on the menu at snack time. They just cry at me until they have eaten lunch and got the energy levels back up, then the rest of the day is normally cool. Don't look for something that isn't there and just like the others dads on here just keep on winging it. It'll be ok.
🙂
We have five year old identical twin boys who just started school. They are in sperate classes for the first time. They had been together in crèche but were a bit overdependant on each. One of them is is doing great the other is not so good. Everyday it's like rolling a dice when I get them home in terms of who is going to throw a strop!
Some days it's plain sailing some days I count to ten every 10 seconds it's great fun.
Can only echo what others have said, all kids are different, and try not to worry about it too much.
she kicked off saying she wanted me to hold her sister's hand too.
Who's the boss then in that situation ??
Although cyclelife has a point, I listened to some very interesting stuff on Radio 4 the other week about how the modern world almost creates excuses for different / bad behaviour in kids, and its actually now that we give kids too many excuses, when in a lot of cases they just need to do as they are told a bit more.
Our sweet little 3yr old girl's first words to me this morning were: "I need to chop you up, and mummy", followed by a description of eating us then opening her belly and getting us back out. I was somewhat worried by this but it later transpired that mummy has been reading Little Red Riding Hood with her!
Hmm, hunger - I am sure that is it lots of the time, she is tiny (still weighs less than 15kg!) and, although she can have a good appetite when she gets going, she doesn't often get the hunger messages so she'll wake up and be angry or whatever and even when we get her breakfast out she'll pick at it for a bit until she realises it's food and food is good - then she'll usually sit and finish it.
Sometimes everything just goes wrong.
At least thats how it seems with our (nearly) 3 year old.
One thing is wrong, then he wants something else (which doesn't go quite right) and it all quickly snowballs into the mother of all meltdowns.
Luckily its not a daily thing for us. But it doesn't sound unusual.
Yeah the link between hunger and happiness hasn't clicked with my two yet.
she kicked off saying she wanted me to hold her sister's hand too.
Who's the boss then in that situation ??
Us I would say - we explained we wouldn't do that because it would be unfair on her sister. I went downstairs leaving her with mummy and she was still crying 5 minutes later after mummy had gone out of the room so I tucked her in, gave her a kiss and left her - she then went to sleep.
Hmm, hunger - I am sure that is it lots of the time, she is tiny (still weighs less than 15kg!) and, although she can have a good appetite when she gets going, she doesn't often get the hunger messages so she'll wake up and be angry or whatever and even when we get her breakfast out she'll pick at it for a bit until she realises it's food and food is good - then she'll usually sit and finish it.
Actually, that does sound an awful lot like my lad. He's a skinny fella, and you sometimes have to force him to eat a bit more, sneak him a few biscuits, or you can.get mega-strops and meltdowns. I'm starting to get better at recognising this now rather than just tell him off. He's 12 next year. 😀
We have 5 year old (non-identical) twins and both have strops now and again as you'd expect at that age.However, one has real emotional outbursts - for example, this morning she got up and was fine then something just clicked and everything was wrong for her - her school tights were uncomfortable, she was cold, we hadn't sat with her 'properly' at breakfast etc. She then went on to say she 'just wanted' to hit things, wanted to say 'poo' (she knows she isn't allowed to say naughty words). She calmed down a little for a bit but then 20 minutes later we had it again, her shoes weren't right, she wanted her blankie etc etc etc. We get these sort of outbursts most days and we've tried talking to her, listening to why she is so angry, ignoring her, shouting at her, rewarding her etc.
She often says things like 'I don't like you looking at me' or 'I don't like it when people talk to me'. She also hates being praised - if she does a nice drawing or says something funny and we respond she'll say 'don't say that' and often it leads to tears and her running away to hide.
This morning I was *VERY* close to running away to hide....
You could be describing our eldest (also five) of late OP, it comes and goes and general tiredness is a factor, possibly something related to the season too?
we've had the "Stop looking at me" thing, she has to have the right socks or tights or dress for school, Screaming, Shouting, stamping and most recently Baring her teeth and Growling like some sort of feral animal, I think there's some sort of frustration behind it, once she's wound up she often complains "You're not listening to me"... she has a younger sister and I think she might perceive a bit of "unfairness" in the way we treat the pair of them at times, so I make a point of telling them both to behave, or trying to tell our youngest that the eldest knows the "Right" way to behave, trying to win her round with a bit of pop psychology...
I can sometimes spot the signs of her going into meltdown and head her off by being generally nice, offering some incentives, We have a "Good behaviour Chart" now where she earns/loses point based on general good behaviour and deeds, threats to remove toys and or treats seldom work but have done on occasion...
I will say this, I'm more patient than my Missus, if Daddy shouts she knows she's gone too far, Mummy tends to run out of patience quicker and hence she knows when she's getting to her, I worry that getting vocal starts to normalise shouting and losing your temper...
It's not all that frequent she's lovely 90% of the time, she's good for grandparents and we've asked if she's behaving like this at school and they reckon she's one of the better behaved kids, so it's clearly something she only does for us, but it does concern me...
so I tucked her in, gave her a kiss and left her - she then went to sleep.
She got what she wanted then 😆 ie was the boss
They are manipulative clever little buggers !
Aah, they're great aren't they?
"Daddy, soon you'll be dead and gone forever, won't you?"
"Daddy, your awesome has been and gone!"
The last one was particularly hurtful.
OP - my eldest 2 boys (4 and 5 1/2) have strops in exactly the same way. One minute everything's fine, then the school shoes aren't tight enough and it's the end of the world. Or it's the wrong colour undies. Definitely worse when they're tired or hungry, but totally normal. They just don't understand they're being unreasonable, and questioning that mis-understanding only makes it worse. And trying to reason with a 5 yr old makes you certifiable anyway! 🙂
I find a sudden and random distraction helps, and ignoring the strop as much as possible is a good thing, you don't want to reward the strop by giving them the attention.
Good luck!
She got what she wanted then
Well she didn't because I didn't hold her sister's hand. If I had gone back in and done as she'd said she would have got what she wanted. I just went in to settle her because she had had one almighty meltdown.
At least I hope I did the right thing...
With our twin girls (now 12) there used to be a bit of competition between them as to who gets the most attention from mum/dad. One of them was more inclined to act this way than the other. My money is on this.
She's getting bigger and realised that she can wrap you round her little finger. Just go with it and don't read too much into it.
Sounds like my 3 year old boy. Very vocal. Today's dinner was "eeerrrrrggghh smells like mouldy chocolate and lavender" (been reading Beatrix Potter books)
What would you like to do now I'm home from work?
"I would like to fight you and shoot you"
ANYTHING he doesn't want to do ends up in a growl, a scowly face and coming at me, punching at my thighs.
He also noticed he has a pimple on his cheek. We officially have a threenager!
Screaming, Shouting, stamping and most recently Baring her teeth and Growling like some sort of feral animal
Thanks. I just had an inappropriate fit of giggles in the office.
Thanks. I just had an inappropriate fit of giggles in the office.
So you're not a parent then?
I felt sympathy...
😆
Not yet, but I can't wait after reading this thread. I'm still giggling now 😆 .
I dunno johndoh but from what you've described, I'm wondering what her css skills are like? I predict a future career in Frontend dev. 😉
Rachel
It does seem to be the case that parents with twins can experience particularly challenging behaviours. A friend of mine with twins volunteers on twinline (I think that's what it's called). What you're describing soynds very similar to her 5yr old twins. Perhaps you should get in touch, I'm sure they'd have some good advice. Hope tjings pan out!
Nothing so far sounds odd or unusual, and OP, sounds like you are doing fine to me! At our wits end some days and we have the most beautiful, intelligent and loving daughters (2 & 4) most of the rest of the time.
Nobody had mentioned tantrums so loud, long and audibly violent that their kids have burst the blood vessels around their eyes, leaving a rash of red spots? They were positively epic! Wondered what we were doing wrong at the time (and still do) but stuck to trying to be firm, fair and consistent. It get better, it will continue to get better, it will never be perfect but then life would be boring. Wouldn't it?
My 5yo (just started in year 1 like yours) used to be a really lovely little boy. Always very obedient etc. Recently he's become a complete pain in the backside, whilst his 7yo brother has now calmed down a lot and does tend to do things a bit better. It might just be an age thing (and as to why it's only one, well they're all different).
Think I'll be showing the Mrs this thread when I get in, should buy me a bit more time.
It does seem to be the case that parents with twins can experience particularly challenging behaviours.
Nah, it's just in stereo rather than mono, so feels a bit more intense.
Compared to parents with differently-aged combinations of kids, its a bit like a death metal track, whereas the rest of you have to get through a prog-rock epic.
Well this morning it took 50 minutes of gently cajoling her to get dressed for school (a combination of leaving her to get on with it and popping in to see if she needed any help) whilst she alternated between hiding in the corner and screaming that she didn't want help, didn't want us to look at her, talk to her etc and culminated in 10 minutes to get breakfast, brush hair, clean teeth, wash face, get shoes and coat on, get in the car.
T'other one was happily getting on, doing everything herself, playing with their little hamsters etc.
Saying all this though, my wife had to go out for a hospital appt. last night and she was a little angel for me, really well behaved and just got on with stuff and went to bed really well.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
It will get better.
I Think one thing we found was that it's easy to get in a pattern of behaviour for both the children and you.
Every morning ends up being groundhog day with you stressed and expecting trouble, them picking it up and being troublesome and so on.
Maybe make a little chart with all the things that she has to do each morning and she puts a sticker on each one as she completes it within an 'agreed' time (5 year olds can understand '10 minutes' as a concept). At the end of the week if she has stickers on each item on the chart for each day then there's a reward.
If her sister also had one beside it maybe that would help the troublesome one to focus as she could see her sister completing tasks each morning and would want to keep up?
There's a danger she 'fails' and has a complete meltdown one day but it sounds like that's where you are already, tbh.
woody2000 - Member
Or it's the wrong colour undies.
Had that this morning. Son has just turned 3 (two days ago) and declared, on getting dressed as usual:
"NO, I no need undies, I big boy now"
"Everyone needs undies, I wear undies, mum wears undies, Abbie and Oli* wear undies. Babies wear nappies, big kids wear undies"
"No, I big boy now, no need undies"
Cue a couple of minutes of unsuccessfully tryng to wrestle undies onto him. Screams, scratching, snot bubbles, the works.
"How about you wear these football undies and I'll kick your bottom and pretend it's a football**"
"No, want my monkey undies"
"These ones?" (selecting undies with monkeys on the front)
"yep" (all smiles, like the previous tantrum had never happened...)
Just got to grin and bear it some days...
*kids of the daycare nanny
** he has a pair of undies in a geodesic football pattern, when he wears them he finds it hilarious if I pretend he's a football and kick him...
We have 5 year old twins and one is the same as many describe above. Good as gold for school, grandparents but can have mega outbursts on us.
3 things I have realised
Hunger and tiredness don't help
Rewards can help, we have a sweetie chart which translates to a bag of sweets if you get one a day
Kids are alowed an off day, they are afterall only kids
Kids are alowed an off day, they are afterall only kids
Absolutely. What we would like is an [b]on[/b] day at the moment....
its a bit like a death metal track, whereas the rest of you have to get through a prog-rock epic.
I love this, the wife gave birth to identical twin girls 5 and a bit months back and this is so very true. If anybody wants a rider for a 24 hour race team I have the sleep deprivation down pat, I'm a pro!
It will get better.
Yeah, it's just a phase. It'll wear off in about fifteen years.
It'll wear off in about fifteen years.
Well not quite - they will just be at Uni and be someone else's problem 🙂
Internet Diagnosis - utterley stupid.
Walk away OP, stop googling, everyones kids go through these phases, and bear in mind that before the current times where there's a medical diagnosis / pigeonhole for "everything" and before you commit your daughters records to a lifetime of scrutiny and bias, everyone's kids demonstrate this kind of behaviour at some time.
Like has been said, if you think there's something abnormal see a professional, but FWIW (my MIL is a senior social worker) consider you actions careful with the welfare of your daughter as the first priority.
Well this morning it took 50 minutes of gently cajoling her to get dressed for school (a combination of leaving her to get on with it and popping in to see if she needed any help) whilst she alternated between hiding in the corner and screaming that she didn't want help, didn't want us to look at her, talk to her etc and culminated in 10 minutes to get breakfast, brush hair, clean teeth, wash face, get shoes and coat on, get in the car.
Same here this morning, it soon calmed down when I told him I wasn't taking him his Rugby training on Sunday. He's now under "good behaviour" orders for today / tomorrow to get it re-instated.
T'other one was happily getting on, doing everything herself, playing with their little hamsters etc.
They might be twins but they are two different people, stop comparing.
Walk away OP, stop googling, everyones kids go through these phases, and bear in mind that before the current times where there's a medical diagnosis / pigeonhole for "everything" and before you commit your daughters records to a lifetime of scrutiny and bias, everyone's kids demonstrate this kind of behaviour at some time.
As I said yesterday...
I suppose a lot of the reason for asking this isn't for a diagnosis, rather than the reassurance that we aren't the only ones experiencing such things - we only have her twin sister to benchmark against and (although she does have strops as I said before) she is overall more emotionally developed.
She often says things like 'I don't like you looking at me' or 'I don't like it when people talk to me'. She also hates being praised
Sounds a bit like me, and the Mrs.
Some people just don't like overt attention. My advice - leave her alone as much as she needs it.
Re the kids tantrums thing - sometimes ime you need to make them think they've won when they haven't, like the wrong undies story. Ours hates every clothing suggestion we give her, unless you give her a choice of three and let her pick.
My advice - leave her alone as much as she needs it.
I would be happy to do this, but as was displayed this morning, leaving her alone as much as we could led to 50 minutes before she was dressed and left us 10 minutes to feed/clean and get in the car to school.
unless you give her a choice of three and let her pick
When we do that we get 'eeni, meeni, mini, mo' games that 'keep going wrong' and we have to start again.
!!!
Firstly, great to hear we are not alone in having generally great kids who 99% behave but then can 'meltdown'. Our smallest twin boy is the worst for it - he also tires far more easily.
I dunno johndoh but from what you've described, I'm wondering what her css skills are like? I predict a future career in Frontend dev.Rachel
Genius! 🙂
we all have days like that. "what's the matter?" is a good opening to allow any problems to come out and be talked over, and a cuddle...
i work in Special needs education, I suggest you ask for a referral to an educational psychologist for an assessment. Sounds as though she is possibly frustrated, possibly there's a conflict between cognitive and verbal IQ which can result in dyspraxic tendencies - how is her balance and ability to catch a small ball?
Difficult to tell without knowing her but it's worth checking, tends to be a male problem more than girls though.
..or go for Plan B which is give her a slap. You will feel better and she will feel better. Didn't do our twins any harm when they started brattish beahviour.
I would be happy to do this, but as was displayed this morning, leaving her alone as much as we could led to 50 minutes before she was dressed and left us 10 minutes to feed/clean and get in the car to school.
They've two options here, no?
1) get dressed
2) go to school in your pyjamas
[i]They've two options here, no?
1) get dressed
2) go to school in your pyjamas [/i]
It's a dangerous game that one.
Do you know how embarrassing it is as a parent to be walking a howling child in a pair of pyjamas through the school gates? It's not a choice I offered her again.
My daughter's strength of mind is feared by all who've run into it.
One teacher in a slightly awed voice at our first parents evening (daughter was 4 and half): "She's got an iron will when she wants to hasn't she."
Do you know how embarrassing it is as a parent to be walking a howling child in a pair of pyjamas through the school gates? It's not a choice I offered her again.
So she's won, then.
[i]So she's won, then. [/i]
Well, I learned it's pointless offering a 'punishment choice' that the child is prepared to accept rather than do what you want.
It doesn't mean we didn't have the battle again, I just chose to use a different weapon 🙂
If she was howling the place down, she clearly doesn't like it. I'd have thought that next time you threatened her with it and she knew you were prepared to go through with it she'd take you seriously?
I Am Not A Parent.
at this age they don't understand the argument, the debate, the situation like an adult, trying to negotiate with kids this age is pointless, they dont and wont understand. They get naughty steps, and maybe getting sent to their room to think about something and not coming back down until they are ready to apologize, but don't try to use rational words. this isnt the oxford university debate society. 🙂 Good luck fella.
Kids scream, my 14yr old has teenage strops, my 10 year old just has melt downs. It happens.
Only thing I might suggest / ask: how often do your girls get a chance to be on their own with either you or their mother? Might be worth having a "special time" where you split them up, give them a chance to get all the attention (from one parent) instead of sharing.
Only thing I might suggest / ask: how often do your girls get a chance to be on their own with either you or their mother? Might be worth having a "special time" where you split them up, give them a chance to get all the attention (from one parent) instead of sharing.
This is a very good point - they are both *much* better when one on one. Unfortunately we don't really get enough chances to do it (and when I try to suggest it - for example, asking one of them if they want to do an errand with me, they invariably both want to do it) - perhaps we should make more of an effort to do it.
Good luck with the girls, small bits of advice which feel free to disregard. Give plenty warning of any transition times as children live in the moment and rarely think what is happening next. Offer forced alternatives e.g. do you want x or y, not what do you want? Keep your instructions simple and ask them to repeat what you have said. When they/she are displaying challenging behaviour use "shouting finished" rather than "will you stop shouting now" as your instruction is clear and given calmly. It's very easy to get into a negative spiral, so where possible ignore the negative and praise the good. One good thing to try and do is reduce the number of questions asked, try to just comment on what is happening. We ask children far too many questions and that is stressful. Enjoy yourself and your time with them. Cheers 1 shed
Well, I learned it's pointless offering a 'punishment choice' that the child is prepared to accept rather than do what you want.
If I've translated this correctly, I do the same, in fact an hour ago I picked jnr up from school, then went to the supermarket to collect some bits and bobs;
[whiney voice] "Daddy,I'm huuunnngry...."
Me: Nope, its dinner time soon.
x5
then
"but Daddy,I'm huuunnngry...." *starts that I'm about to cry thing*
Me: Ok lets do a deal. You can pick one thing from the shop but it has to be fruit
Jnr *pause* Ok Daddy can I have an apple?
Me: "Yup. One more thing, if you eat that apple before dinner, you still have to eat all the dinner mummy gives you, if you don't, you can't play with your scalextrics before bedtime ok?"
Jnr: "Ok Daddy" [/whiney voice]
So, As soon they apple rolls of they conveyor belt and he picks it up I reinforce this, and he agrees again. Its now important to enforce the rule, but basically the evenings events and how they play out have been mutually agreed based on the outcome that I want.
Maybe try that proactive style rather than reactive?
On a more sympathetic note, parenting is the hardest job in the world sometimes....