[Closed] Molgrips car #4 - A New Hope

Is that a life lesson you could take to heart?

Yep, certainly - I'll choose my garages with far more care next time.

But remember, every other thread on here tells you NOT to go to the main dealer. So should I have ignored that advice?

it's time to call in someone with the right knowledge and the tools to fix it.

And that's exactly what I tried to do.

So should I have ignored that advice?

Yes. Really, Yes.

There are times when Main Dealer is the best way.

This was one of them.

There are times when Main Dealer is the best way.

This was one of them.

Hindsight is good like that.

Of course, if I'd done enough research myself, I'd have had it fixed for £40, since that's all the original problem cost to fix. But that's apparently the wrong thing to do according to this thread.

Has no-one picked up on the fact that the mobile guy seems to have lied through his teeth?

Has he tho really? It could be argued that fixing cars isn't an exact science and he did what he thought was the best thing to do with the limited equipment he had available to him. Apart from that and you paying more for the ECU than you thought it was worth when has he lied?

Well, he told me that the specialist had told him the ECU was water damaged and needed replacing, as he'd originally thought.

The specialist themselves told me that they'd told him they'd tested it and there was nothing wrong with the ECU, and he'd gone back several times trying to persuade them that it was faulty. Eventually they sold him a new one to get him to go away, despite knowing that the old one was not faulty.

Now it may be that the specialist is lying to try and stitch him up, but that does seem rather unlikely.

Of course, if I'd done enough research myself, I'd have had it fixed for £40, since that's all the original problem cost to fix. But that's apparently the wrong thing to do according to this thread.

but you still took it to 3 other garages? since the original troubled one.....

Sod it - I call troll.

You only just realising that? Molgrips is the Keyser Söze of trolling.

but you still took it to 3 other garages?

You're not following. I only found the real problem AFTER the ECU had been replaced.

So, youre initial issue was a result of CAN bus errors, caused by water ingress into the TrCM. This had a knock on effect (due to the CAN data corruption) into other control modules. I assume the TCU was changed erroneously because the transmission was going into limp mode when it "lost" its CAN data exchange.

There is, in reality, unlikely to be a fault with the "new" ecu (assuming it is roughly of the correct type. All these modules are now "coded" to your car, and that includes the firmware (the operating instructions) and the calibration (the operating variables) data. These devices are also fully 'adaptive' and aim to learn your driving style and modify their shift points etc to suit you. As such, if this adaptive data has not been properly reset, the TCU may do funny things, or if the coding is incorrect, it may also not operate exactly as before.

If it were my car, i'd want to have the following done:

1) an independent review of the CAN data to ensure the bus is viable (using software that records the raw data stream and identifies arbitration and bit errors)
2) Talk to VW Uk to identify the exact variant coding for your car
3) Get the TCU flashed with this s/w and the adaptive tables cleared
4) Once 'fixed" data log some important parameters to validate the fix is working!

Sorry, just saw Maxtorque's post.

The engine ECU was changed, the tranny was never in limp mode, never has been.

I've had the adaption reset procedure done twice by garages and done several times by me. No change.

Canbus is fine NOW since I've taken bits of it out of water. Car works perfectly well apart from the two problems. ECU and gearbox have been flashed with the appropriate software from Autologic. No change...

...and your ECU still reports a ground fault on the manifold flap sensor thingummy.

something not right with dat dere doohickey.

I took the (18yr old) Micra in for an MOT the other day.
Had to spend an extra bloody pound on a rear number plate bulb!
Cars are just money pits. 😥

😀

So is it fixed? And if not what needs doing now?

...and your ECU still reports a ground fault on the manifold flap sensor thingummy.

something not right with dat dere doohickey.

Yeah, and it still says it when the flap is disconnected...

Yeah, and it still says it when the flap is disconnected...

Good point, I don't know. The flap actuator is made by Pierburg, I found some blurb on it but no pin out diagrams. There are 5 pins - motor +ve, motor -ve, controller power, position sensor and ground. So in saying there is a short to ground on the position sensor, it is being very specific about a fault on a particular wire. The thing is, using my multimeter I can't detect any shorts to ground.

So the ONLY possibilities are an internal fault or I'm not testing it properly. I opened up the case on it to check for bits of swarf etc but nothing.

The internet is full of people with faults in this flap, almost all are bad motors or implausible signals, some are open circuit too.

I'm not sure how the sensor works, but it could be a variable resistor type, so if faulty it 'could' look like a short, but it's very poor fault reporting if this is the case. I'd always put money on the mechanical bits being faulty, esp. if they sit somewhere hot.

And the clutch and valve thing?

Yeah lots of possibilities for a faulty flap actuator, but why is there a fault when it's unplugged? Seems odd.

Ed, dunno about the gearbox, current thinking is still that it's caused by the engine issue. Or some other engine misconfiguratiom.

Good that with all your research you're getting close to working out how to fix it then Moly. Y'know, without giving any more money to experts 🙂

Stop pissing about. Either sell or pay to fix it (or put up and stop moaning). Every time you drive it, it's just going to wind you up wondering what could have been....

You mean every time I post on here I get wound up...

Inlet flap pin out according to autodata

Pin 1 brown wire earth
2 white & red 12v
3 violet & yellow pin 25 engine ecu
4 violet & grey pin 60 engine ecu
Doesn't show a pin 5 i'm affraid

Unpluging the motor won't erase the fault from the control unit , therefore the fault will still be present .
Do you happen to have a cooling fan fault also saved in the engine ecu ?

I don't get everyone's faith in main dealers, they know very little about car ECUs, esp VW dealers who know naff all about car electrics. They are just trained to read fault codes and swap parts. I had endless miss-fire problems on my V6 4Motion Golf, which had no end of parts swapped under warranty by VW's highest qualified 'technicians'. In the end I went to a specialist engine tuner who ran it up on a rolling road and spotted the fault in about 5 minutes. Cost me about £600 to get it fixed, but finally solved the problem (Air mass filter fault which only affected power under load).

The VW professionals were a joke. I forced the local dealers 'specialist' to go for a test drive with me and demonstrated the missfire and he agreed there was a fault. Drove back to main dealer, plugged it in to Computer, which said 100% OK and then he said 'well it's fixed, there's no fault'. Complete idiot. This had been going on for months at this point with all sorts of random things changed eg fuel pump, HT leads, Coil packs, etc.

Footflap - what was the engine ? My mates 1.4 tsfi scirocco had similar misfiring change coil packs etc etc went on for weeks at the specialist ( volks centre kingswells)

Specialist cars vw sorted it in a week - turned out the ecu was fapped but the code reader always said coil pack- live diagnostics while driving showed otherwise.

Doesn't show a pin 5 i'm affraid

Huh.. That backs up the different hardware version theory. There's at least two versions of the wiring on ELSA for slightly different variants of the car, and Pierburg make a 4 and 5 pin version of the flap. The pin numbers I have from ELSA are quite different.

Unpluging the motor won't erase the fault from the control unit , therefore the fault will still be present .
Do you happen to have a cooling fan fault also saved in the engine ecu ?

Yeah I know, I erase them every time and the flap fault immediately reappears. Followed after a bit of engine running by the EGR insufficient flow one, which is linked. No other fault codes for the entire car.

Footflaps's story is exactly what I'm afraid of.

Footflap - what was the engine

2.8l V6

Footflaps's story is exactly what I'm afraid of.

My advice would be find a local tuner who can do custom remaps and has a rolling road (as they will know a lot more about ECUs than VAG dealers). I used AMD in Bicester, but they've since gone out of business and been bought up by someone else.

Yeah they're on my list. Tempted to do the 'give it back when it's fixed' thing too, but I'm convinced they'll either spend hours finding out what I already know or change half the car and then say 'dunno'.

Going to call http://the-ecu-doctor.co.uk/ today.

EDIT: I might offer to do them a new website in exchange for fixing my car 🙂

That's why you go to an ECU place with Rolling Road....

They can try things, test in situ etc.... instead of you going back and forth etc. You then know exactly where you are.

Just to get this right. I haven't read all so bear with me.
You take the car to a garage who buggered it.
Instead of taking it back to them to fix you take it to everyone and his brother who are struggling to diagnose what the first garage did. Maybe instead of posting on here about what it could be (which seems to take most of your time) just bloody take it back to the first garage and get them to fix it.
Or have I missed something?

[i]Or have I missed something? [/i]

yep.

Or have I missed something?

Yes, the months of me entreating him to fix it and being put off, at which point he admitted he knew f-all about electrics, couldn't help, and gave me the name of the specialist he went to.

So Trading Standards couldn't help?

Trading standards took my call and tut-tutted at the story.. I said I'd contact him asking for refunds first. I dunno if they can actually act though?

EDIT apparently they can.. hmm...

Not now you've gone to 30 other garages as who knows where the damage was done.

Not now you've gone to 30 other garages as who knows where the damage was done

I'm not repeating it all here but I know exactly what caused the issues and what was done.

iolo - I think if you can't even be arsed to read this thread and its predecessors there's no point leaping in on page 5 of this one and stirring things up further?

There's at least two versions of the wiring on ELSA for slightly different variants of the car, and Pierburg make a 4 and 5 pin version of the flap. The pin numbers I have from ELSA are quite different.

I'll say this again

it sounds like the ECU you have been given simply isn't matched to your car's wiring loom - wrong model or year or variant or something.

Until you have an ECU that matches your particular car's model & variant, all bets are off.

And for that reason, I'm out.

I know.. that's my conclusion also - either that or a fault.

Need to get back to Permoveo, but my chances of persuading them are pretty much nil because they are arseholes.

Molgrips have you tried any of the VW/AUDI forums like UKPassats ? Maybe someone's had the same issue.

I've combed the internet, not one single reference to these problems. Very few people get the exact same error about the flap, and if they do it's part of a longer list caused by wider electrical problems. Not one single reference to slow shifts.

At least, I couldn't find any.

Molly,

You need to forget about what you know, what's happend in the past, who's done what etc.

Take the car to a PROPER expert and say

"My car doesn't shift right since getting an ECU swap, can you check, diagnose and sort please"

then go home and wait 🙂

This probably is of no use whatsoever but - my car had the gearbox drained/removed during a flywheel replacement and when it came back it was slow to shift up (i.e. revved too high before shifting).
Took it back to the garage who said that it was probably gear oil level - they topped it up and it's been fine since.

The moral of this story is - how sure are you it's an electrical fault?

Hmm. I did think about oil level. I had a look in the box and it seemed ok, but I wasn't on flat ground.

Given you've said that though I might have another look. Or do a top-up based on the procedures online. But like I say, problem only happened when the ecu was changed, it'd done about 20k miles since the gearbox oil change without this problem.

It's slow both up and down btw.

Hmm. I did think about oil level. I had a look in the box and it seemed ok, but I wasn't on flat ground.

sorry but you do sound incompetent

Hence my previous comments that I got flamed on