[Closed] Modern Art - SPOILER ALERT

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Nowt up with purple squares.

I find i appreciate modern art more when the tabloid press go so far out of their way to completely remove any context from a piece, then publish a 'look at this piece of pretentious old crap' article. Come on! Lets all laugh at the beard-scratching posho's.

Who's the thick one then? The person de-constructing the artwork? Or the person who's had his opinions spoon-fed to him by a Sun journalist?

Modern art as it should be:

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🙂

I'm not knocking modern art.
Just think that sometimes people search for meaning where there isn't any.

Look Yeti! A big slide. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 😀

Where is that Binners? It's Awesome!!

But what does it mean? Probably nothing more than someone thought it'd be nice to have a big slide there...

[img] ?w=480[/img]

Oh my god you are so completely and utterly wrong. Wrongest. Modern and abstract art is unbelievably important.

I used to date the daughter of a world renowned abstract artist and he and I ended up in many discussions about his work, which he takes very seriously.

I asked him how long it took him to do a painting, which appeared to my untrained eye to be a few boxes with a ladder in one of them, he looked angry and said 72 years (his age). He took it very seriously indeed as did the international art community. He is a royal Academician!

I think what I am trying to say is that even though you cannot fathom any meaning, it does not mean that the artist is not very serious about it. Even if it is rubbish (which I think most of it is).

Visual language my arse...

[img] [/img]

what did he use to make the stain? is that 72 years worth of, erm?

what did he use to make the stain? is that 72 years worth of, erm?

Do not belittle the lifetimes work of a man exploring the human experience. 😉

At least spaff would be a statement!

I'm not knocking modern art.
Just think that sometimes people search for meaning where there isn't any.

And sometimes people don't see search for it when it is there.

Having said that, the piece shown by Torminalis is not very good at all.

Torm - he was laughing at you! Like this >> look 😆

But why isn't it just ART!?

Surely the monica of Modern Art is becuase it isn't art, but is something different?

What is clever about half a cow (butchers have been doing that for years) or a submarine made of tyres?

I mean, if I put my unmade bed up for sale would it be worth millions?

It's all crap.

I mean, if I put my unmade bed up for sale would it be worth millions?

but it wasn't just an unmade bed was it, it was what the bed evoked and represented

Torm - he was laughing at you!

No, hundreds of people attended his last collection and they were all very serious, none moreso than he. Prices start at £10k.

but it wasn't just an unmade bed was it, it was what the bed evoked and represented

Like all those quaint galleries in Amsterdam?

What it evoked and represented?

Er, that the stiggy cow needed to make her bed and tidy up!

It's all crap.

Yes there is some crap modern art. There is also some crap Renaissance art and some crap Post-modernistic art and some crap Neo-Classicist art and some crap...

Prices start at £10k.

He's 😆 all the way to the bank then!!

It's all crap.

To be honest, I am pretty interested in this. It all started with DuChamp's urinal, he declared it was art and thus it was a modern abstract art was born. Modern art tends to be about the concept rather than the content. The name is often as telling as the form. Most of it is rubbish but some things are (to me) very clever and very highly regarded by people outside the art world.

No, hundreds of people attended his last collection and they were all very serious, none moreso than he. Prices start at £10k.

Wow, that is a lot, especially as if you look closely, you can see he only got 33 out for 50 for it.

Er, that the stiggy cow needed to make her bed and tidy up!

What do you want from art? just pictures? stuff that looks exactly like the thing it represents?

A broad, sweeping and completely unjustified statement.

Not really - my opinion is it's all crap.

Charging millions for half a cow just means nothing to me. There's no skill apart from conning people into buying it.

Charging millions for half a cow just means nothing to me. There's no skill apart from conning people into buying it.

Is any art worth anything?

What do you want from art? just pictures? stuff that looks exactly like the thing it represents?

No. I do like more classical stuff. But I just think if it needs a seperate name then it's probably the Emporers New Clothes.

I like things that have needed skill. Taking a chain saw to a cow isn't that skilful (not that I've tried mind).

Dr, where do you live? Are there any farms near by? I have a chainsaw...

Good idea TSY. Although I don't want to copy Mr Hurst. Would you mind holding down my neighbours Spaniel while I do the cutting (the Spaniel or the nerighbour - makes no odds to me)?

I feel another experiment coming on... all in the name of art you understand...

'What is easiest to cut in half with a chainsaw?'

All suggestions welcome, the Dr and I will get no pleasure from it whatsover. Our 'creations' will on display for a limited time only.

I propose to chop a chainsaw in half with a chainsaw.

It is a reflection on the recursive nature of our own self destructive tendencies.

That'll be £5 please.

I like things that have needed skill.

For me, that's just technical, mechanistic.

A broad, sweeping and completely unjustified statement.

Not really - my opinion is it's all crap.

Charging millions for half a cow just means nothing to me. There's no skill apart from conning people into buying it.

DrR**** what you said was a braod sweeping statement. Just because you don't understand something, does not mean there is no meaning there. It just reflects you can't or won't see it.
To clarify what you mean you need to say, "to me" or "I think" or if you want to get artsy say "I feel". 😉

Being even more pedantic I would argue that Duchamp started modern art but I agree with the sentiment.of the post.

For me, that's just technical, mechanistic.

Which is fine 🙂

Torminalis - I don't understand. Wouldn't the chainsaw need to chop itself in half for your reflection to work?

But that's why I don't like Modern Art. It's like a bad joke - if it needs explaining it ain't funny.....

because you don't understand something, does not mean there is no meaning there

OK - so this is where I lose the plot. WHY do I need to understand it?

I can look at a sculpture and appreciate it. But why should I bother trying to understand what half a cow in a fish tank means?

Surely it's just all a little bit up it's own bottom?

But that's why I don't like Modern Art. It's like a bad joke - if it needs explaining it ain't funny

I think the joke analogy is good, but not a 'bad' joke. just like a joke , and you don't get it. I don't mean that pejoratively

OK - so this is where I lose the plot. WHY do I need to understand it?

you don't [i]need[/i] to understand it, but if you did it would be one more rich experience in your life. You don't need to like Westlife, but if you did, it would allow you to enjoy a whole lot of stuff. (whether or not it's worth it is you call) Many things are an "acquired taste" but some folks find it worthwhile to acquire that taste.

I can look at a sculpture and appreciate it. But why should I bother trying to understand what half a cow in a fish tank means?

You don't need to like [b]Westlife[/b], but if you did, it would allow you to enjoy a whole lot of stuff.

Your argument just took a nose dive - LOL!!!

But, for sake of argument, let me think about Ms Emins unmade bed. What do I think was going through her mind as she lay there farting, doped out of her head? Dunno. And, to be frank, don't care.

I'm not sure what I should 'get' from looking at her dirty stained sheets, apart from annoying my natural OCD tendencies.

If, whilst sitting at my desk, I tipped out the pot of bulldog clips and said it was to demonstrate my feelings of despair - would that be modern art or a mess?

Perhaps that's what I need answering. When does a pointless pile of rubbish become something more? Afterall, we can analyse almost anything......

Just think that sometimes people search for meaning where there isn't any.

Yes. I think a lot of Shakespeare was originally meant to be nothing more than a ripping good yarn, blockbuster entertainment. Possibly knocked out the morning after a drunken night out for a deadline.

I like things that have needed skill.

I'd like to draw an analogy here. Posted the other day in some other context was the story of an engineer brought out of retirement to fix some huge complex arcane machine that no-one else understood any longer. He comes in, walks around for a few minutes listening and puts a chalk mark on a component with an instruction to replace it. He then charges $10,000. When questioned about this seemingly high hourly rate, he says that the chalk mark was worth $1 and knowing where to put it was worth $9,999.

I feel that way about good art. It doesn't take any skill to wheel your bed into a gallery and mess it up, but I feel it DOES take skill to find a long detailed story inside yourself and sum the whole thing up beautifully and impossibly concisely; expressing it all not with a few hundred pages of words but one single scene. I think that if you don't understand the un-made bed then you should go back and look again (if indeed you looked at it in the first place) carefully and use your imagination.

OK - I have seen it.

But - it's just an unmade bed.

Why is it different from any other unmade bed? Why is it special? It's not.

Surely if I have to use my imagination then it's my mind that is the piece of art? OK - I'm even confusing myself now!

When does a pointless pile of rubbish become something more?

This is a good one, I think it is when the artist uses it to convey something. It's not just with piles of rubbish either, after all a spider can create something beautiful, but the result is not art .

For me, the bed invites you to consider that everyday object again. Think about the people you have shared a bed wit, from when you were a baby. Many of them will be significant people in your life. Think about the things you do in your bed, the role it plays in your life.

Only by pulling the bed out of it's normal context and confronting you with it does she make you pause to consider it.

Why is it special?

It's in an art gallery.

But otherwise, it's not special. Any un-made bed could tell a story...

Surely if I have to use my imagination then it's my mind that is the piece of art?

No, the art work is (or should be) prompting your imagination and therefore invoking a range of emotions in you. Good art will do this.

Think about the people you have shared a bed wit, from when you were a baby

+1. The bed, iirc was surrounded by things like paperbacks, tea mugs and used condoms etc. Slices of life. What would each of those sexual encounters have meant to the artist (I think it was meant to be autobiographical)? Who were the men? What happened on those evenings..?

ach.. It'll all move on soon... it made an interesting statement at the time.. and opened up new avenues for artists to explore.. but it's had it's day... is very passe and as soon as we as a nation can breed an interesting generation again we'll get something new to be irked/in love with..

the artists life is made increasingly harder by the 'art industry' and the inevitable sheizenfreud that it's afficianados bombard the public with..

yeah..
chilli con carne time I say..

ciao

I can look at a sculpture and appreciate it. But why should I bother trying to understand what half a cow in a fish tank means?

Both 🙂

And why is it beautiful?

For example, why is this beautiful?
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And is being able to craft something from a piece of stone more skilful than being able to cut an animal in half and successfully preserve it?

And which one shows more creative insight?

Any un-made bed could tell a story...

But it took Tracy Emins to make people think about that and thats why hers is special !!!!

Edited to clarify and to say I know you get that molegrips but I thought it made the point well.

Wait, right, cos I'm a bit busy and shoon't be on here wasting time at all, but I'll be along later to sort all this nonsense out propply.

I really like this:

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If anyone, anywhere, at anytime considers something to be art, then it is.
It's the only definition that works. 🙂

I look forward to your input Elfin.

Rusty that is quality. I also really that mahoosive chair that was on Dartmoor. I love loads of art stuff.

This thread was actually started as an artistic reflection on the pseudo analysis of the movie Inception, carried out across 4 or 5 seperate threads in the last week or two.

I was going to comment, but now we're all waiting for Fred, I don't think I can. He's from that London tha knows? He's bound to be, like, dead cosmopolitan and that. And understand about abstract expersionism and stuff.

Anyway, In the meantime, here are a few of them square things. Nice ones too

[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRioNbRHMIF4jAuQxAUN2fHv0IL_XF1KflDg195eX0HoBDCgjQL [/img]

[img] http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGWt93ncQMmbLYre96Bk7CcKrTyv7ZPj43OyYdbuV612rQq0zE [/img]

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:shakeshead:

So a blue square.

A black square.

Something a four year old has done.

Art? Probably only becuase it was done by an artist and the world has been told that it's art.

See I like those too. A red version of the first is almost exactly what I'm looking for, for my bedroom... 'ah much?

You want me to paint a red square on your bedroom wall?

£50 plus a four pack of Stella.

It needs to have the same sort of depth though. In red it'll look quite sultry me thinks. It'll need to fade to very dark red, almost black?

If you don't like it you can keep the £50.

But I will be drinking the Stella whilst painting.

Best not get any paint on the new carpet then!

Why don't you do it on a canvas then if I don't like it I can make an installation out of it with a sawn in half otter.

To be fair, the Rothko stuff has to be seen in real life to achieve its full impact

DrS**** - I see you are still with us - would you care to pass comment on my much earlier post then - I would like to know how you feel about the piece I have exampled and how you feel it differs from modern art.

It'll cost you a case of Alcopops for a sawn in half otter!

Actually, it depends which direction I saw it in half.

Across the mid-riff is cheaper.

I just want the top half. Thnx x

And is being able to craft something from a piece of stone more skilful than being able to cut an animal in half and successfully preserve it?

Sorry, I forgot.

I would argue that cutting a cow in half (as in a slaughterhouse worker) is slightly less skilled then creating a realistic female form from stone using a hammer and chisel.

If I want to see half a cow I'll go down to the local butchers thanks. And while I'm in there choosing between Lamb or Pork chops I won't get all emotional about what they mean to me spiritually. I'll just drool and get hungry (damn I want a lamb chop!).

Venus will be a wonderful piece of art in a thousand years time still (hopefully) whereas a cow in a fishtank won't be.

As a final argument - you can see her norks 🙂

Send me your address TSY and I'll pop an Otter Top in the mail 🙂

I was going to comment, but now we're all waiting for Fred, I don't think I can. He's from that London tha knows? He's bound to be, like, dead cosmopolitan and that. And understand about abstract expersionism and stuff.

No seriously I do know about art and stuff, and live in That London, which qualifies me to talk about art and stuff. And I am dead cosmopolitan. [i]Urbane[/i], even.

I just don't have enough time to go in depth at the mo, too busy. Soz. Shoon't be on here at all really, but I'm having a cup of tea and some Haribo for lunch.

I have designed some furniture today though. 🙂

Venus will be a wonderful piece of art in a thousand years time still (hopefully) whereas a cow in a fishtank won't be.

Or is it just because he was good with a cold chisel?

Yadda yadda Elfin, you don't know about stuff, everyone knows that!

I have an image of Elfin eating the 'Venus de Gummy' from that Simpsons episode. Video ain't on YouTube though.

Well MF, if you can't define what art is then nothing is art.

I like it cos I can't imagine being able to do it. The form is pleasing and the skill amazing.

What an idiot you truly are TSY. I [i]do[/i] know about art and stuff, and will be along later to prove so.

Tea break over.

Venus will be a wonderful piece of art in a thousand years time still (hopefully) whereas a cow in a fishtank won't be.

But what is so special about Venus? What doe sit make you think, other than, hey that looks just like a woman. I bet that was really hard to do. The difficulty here is that, if the same thing could be mass produced, would it still be as 'worthy'?

The cow in the fish tank, challenges complacency towards animals and meet in modern society, in brings us back to the reality of our relationship with meat as food. Highlighting the extent which we separate food meat from its animal origins. The cow is no more a cow than the slab of meat we stick on our plates. from one side we can see the meat we often see in the butchers, but on the other we see the cow.

What an idiot you truly are TSY. I do know about art and stuff, and will be along later to prove so.

How long [i]does[/i] it take you to trawl wikipedia??

I like it cos I can't imagine being able to do it. The form is pleasing and the skill amazing.

The cow in the fish tank, challenges complacency towards animals and meet in modern society, in brings us back to the reality of our relationship with meat as food. Highlighting the extent which we separate food meat from its animal origins. The cow is no more a cow than the slab of meat we stick on our plates. from one side we can see the meat we often see in the butchers, but on the other we see the cow.

You're thinking too much. That's what I don't get. I don't want to spend a month thinking of some clever explanation as to why something is art so my dinner party guests will be impressed.

It's a cow in a fish tank. Nuff said.

If he'd put gold fish in the tank with the cow I might have at least found it amusing.

The VdM is just lovely (for me). It looks great. It's a pretty woman, well depicted with skill.

How about my above example?

MF - it's a blob. It fills a space. It does NOTHING for me.

You're thinking too much.

Not at all, its fairly blatant.

Incidentally, for me sculpture is fantastic, because the VdM for example was

always

MF - it's a blob. It fills a space. It does NOTHING for me.

But you just said this about the VdM

I like it cos I can't imagine being able to do it. The form is pleasing and the skill amazing.

Bit harsh that Elfin. Please come and share your knowledge later. You too can be part of my 'exhibition'.

So could you imagine being able to do the second example?
Is the form not pleasing?
Is the skill not amazing?

Nope.

I couldn't imagine doing the second example - but becuase it's a pointless blob and nothing would motivate me to do so.

The form isn't pleasing - it's a pointless blob.

Skill - I dunno how it's made. It takes more skill then I have to make lots of things - but that doesn't make them art.

The blob just looks like the sort of rubbish local councils spend money on. Some local 'artist' is commissioned to produce a grafitti magnet. It's unvieled by the mayor, featured in the local rag, and promptly forgotten about.

It's a blob......

Bit harsh that Elfin. Please come and share your knowledge later. You too can be part of my 'exhibition'.

Do you want me to chop him in half?

I'll have to think about the going rate for a human.

I'll have to think about the going rate for a human.

Well, don't charge too much. For elfin, they will be a lot of people wanting that contract

DrS****, I do not understand your reasoning - the reasons you argue you like the first piece can be easily argued for why the second piece has equal artistic merit.

What it comes down to is that you appear to have a very simple view of what makes art have value to you.