[Closed] Mobile Speed Cameras and Overtaking

if you have to break the speed limit to overtake then it's not safe in the eyes of the law to overtake surely?

Thats almost exactly how they got me 🙁 It does feel a bit unsporting.

The cameras are there for your safety. Who knows what dangers may lay in wait...

[img] [/img]

new driver in poor judgement shocker...

peterfile

Absolutely no promises here, but the guy who operates that camera van says that when he sees cars overtaking he doesn't ping them when they're doing so. If they pull back in and don't return to the speed limit straight away, he considers them fair game, but if they do, he leaves them.

That's what he [i]told[/i] me, so fingers crossed!

if you have to break the speed limit to overtake then it's not safe in the eyes of the law to overtake surely?

Obviously the law considers any excess of speed to be "unsafe", but surely this is subjective? This section of the road is around 30 miles long and has very, very few safe places to overtake. Build ups in traffic due to slower moving vehicles are common, leading to some drivers making unsafe overtaking moves. The position of that van seemed to penalise those drivers overtaking on the only safe area to do so.

new driver in poor judgement shocker...

OK, so using the judgment of an experienced driver, where would be a safe place to overtake on the section of the A82 which you obviously know well enough to be able to comment on my judgment?

You broke the law. Safely or not. So it's down to the whim of the copper behind the camera as to whether you'll be getting a ticket or not. And that will depend on your driving, the car you were in, what you look like, whether the copper got laid last night, what he had for tea, the temperature that day and anything else that dictates one's judgement.

Not judging you myself at all, sounds likely I would've done the same thing in your situation. But that's the way it is. Keep an eye on your doormat and you'll find out soon enough.

EDIT: and if you are a new driver, get used to driving like a granny for the next two years while the [i]'six point and out rule'[/i] applies.

OK, so using the judgment of an experienced driver, where would be a safe place to overtake on the section of the A82 which you obviously know well enough to be able to comment on my judgment?

That's dependant on the other traffic... if the other traffic drives at the speed limit there is legally nowhere. If the other traffic sits at 30mph the whole time there are rather more!

You broke the law. Safely or not.

Absolutely, like I said, if I get a ticket I'll suck it up (and drive like a granny for a while!)

Just mulling over whether the position of the van actually prevents accidents or just encourages drivers to overtake in less safe areas.

Like shooting fish in a barrel

Think of it as yet another tax. Also your insurance may go up, so there will be more tax on that. Meanwhile the really nasty places don't get cameras because of visibility rules.

Oh, and a satnav will ping you when you're near a camera.

Double points for Merc drivers in Scotchland I hear.... 😀

If the car you overtook was doing 40 mph, did you really need to exceed 60 to pass him safely? Assuming the camera van / PF is using the normal rules of thumb for deciding on prosecutions you'd need to be doing 66+ to get a ticket.

If you missed a speed camera van on the other side of the road I'm not convinced you really assessed the overtake properly.

Whilst I appreciate the point you are trying to make, you have unpicked your own argument with the following
statement "speeding is a strict liability offence". If you really believe that you had a reasonable excuse for speeding you can go to court and try to justify it. As you probably know, you will never justify it to STW.

I'd have probably done the same. And sucked it up if it resulted in a ticket. Can't imagine you would need to go much more than 65 to take them though, and you'd hope that there would be an element of discretion applied.

Coppers can't win though. They need a section of straight road to set up on, and for every driver doing a legitimate overtake, there'll be a couple of loon bikers doing a ton who fully deserve the points. So setting up there is fine in my view.

The answer to that will be that if it's safe to perform a legal overtake you won't get done, and if it's not, you shouldn't do so. It could also be argued, if one wished too, that by parking on a long straight with good visibility, a driver should see the van a long way off.

Double points for Merc drivers in Scotchland I hear....

It's an estate though, so i'm hoping they were thinking more along the lines of Ned Flanders rather than Nigel Mansel 🙂

If you missed a speed camera van on the other side of the road I'm not convinced you really assessed the overtake properly.

I did see the van, but it's the A82, there's a van/camper/car parked in every available spot! I've never spotted a police van in that location, it's always at White Corries.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to argue that I don't deserve a ticket if I was speeding, more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served - i.e. a reduction in accidents.

I must admit that section of the road traffic act bugs the nipples off me as well but you also have to take into account the increased braking distance and reduced reaction time as your speed increases, an "average" of combined reaction/braking distance from 50mph is approx 220 ft, raise your speed to 70mph and this rises to 380ft, a rather significant increase that is on your conscience if, god forbid anything goes wrong - obviously the above is dependant on your reaction time/road conditions/braking capability of your car etc.

It may possibly be safer to overtake at speed that minimises your encroachment on the other carriageway whilst breaking the speed limit dependant on how fast your car accelerates but on a road you are unfamiliar with you also have to take into account factors such as hidden junctions where a car may pull onto the road without fully checking for closing traffic from the left at speed or other such perils outwith your control so it pays to exercise caution but i freely admit......when the road is clear and it is a road i am confidant driving on, if i want to pass anything on a normal road travelling 50mph or less i do tend to drop it into 3rd and floor it. takes a couple of seconds and i'm back on my side of the road in my mk2 golf but just a blink of an eye in my mates rs4 and it can stop from 120mph to zero in the time it takes my car to stop from 60mph to zero so it's relevant to the car what you feel comfortable doing.

However if it is a road i am unsure of i'm quite happy to pootle along at whatever speed till it is perfectly safe to overtake at leisure.

peterfile - Member
I'm not trying to argue that I don't deserve a ticket if I was speeding, more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served - i.e. a reduction in accidents.

I thought the aim of the camera was to catch people breaking the speed limit?

How do you overtake without going over the speed loimit on a motorway or dual carrigeway.

Easy stay in the outside lane doing 70 mph.

you also have to take into account factors such as hidden junctions where a car may pull onto the road without fully checking for closing traffic from the left at speed

That's a biggie, imo. When people look for cars before doing any manoeuvre, they don't tend to also check the wrong side of the road for cars doing 50% over the limit... Having said that I do floor it when overtaking, but the power of my cars is such that I rarely pass 80 anyway.

Absolutely no promises here, but the guy who operates that camera van says that when he sees cars overtaking he doesn't ping them when they're doing so. If they pull back in and don't return to the speed limit straight away, he considers them fair game, but if they do, he leaves them.

What he said

Its been my experience too. If you have briefly exceeded the limit and returned to the 60mph you might be okay.

How fast do you think you were going?

Bear in mind and indicated 70mph is probably only 65mph and you are unlikely to get done for less than 66mph

for every driver doing a legitimate overtake, there'll be a couple of loon bikers doing a ton who fully deserve the points.

That's right, because only motorcyclists deserve to be penalised for speeding, car drivers should be exempt.

I hate to break this to you, but if you're speeding in a car, you're no more superior or privileged than anyone else on the road, even if it is a "legitimate" overtake.

For what it's worth, I'd probably have done the same thing in the OP's position, though I'd like to think I'd have seen the camera and thought better of it. Either way though, I wouldn't then be claiming the moral highground and bleating on about 'proper' speeders, ie, any demographic that wasn't me.

I'm not trying to argue that I don't deserve a ticket if I was speeding, more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served - i.e. a reduction in accidents.

Million dollar question, isn't it. They need a straight line to operate the camera, so they have to set up on the safest part of an otherwise (presumably) dangerous stretch of road.

I think he said 'biker' in that sentence because they are often going much faster than motorists, due to being on very fast machines.

you'd need to be doing 66+ to get a ticket.

you are unlikely to get done for less than 66mph

68, no? Rule of thumb is 10% + 2, up here at least.

Oh, and,

I'll suck it up if I was speeding

Don't you know?

How fast do you think you were going?

Bear in mind and indicated 70mph is probably only 65mph and you are unlikely to get done for less than 66mph

For the purposes of this example, hypothetically speaking of course, it could have been an indicated 75mph.

Don't you know?

Not too keen to admitting to any offence on here. Just saying that I was performing an manouevre which required my full attention on the road, not my dashboard, so just concerned I could have drifted over slightly 🙂

Perhaps didn't express myself clearly. Trying to draw a distinction between seriously fast riders/drivers who are averaging well above the SL and those who perhaps exceed it briefly during an overtake but are happy to cruise at 60. So not just bikers, just a turn of phrase. Apologies.

(Although I do use the A65 frequently, so perhaps it's subconscious anti-biker bias).

So it's down to the whim of the copper behind the camera as to whether you'll be getting a ticket or not. And that will depend on your driving, the car you were in, what you look like, whether the copper got laid last night, what he had for tea, the temperature that day and anything else that dictates one's judgement.

Are those kinds of camera vans not fully automated and staffed by civies rather than plods?

Edit: Peterfile - get yourself a caravan for your weekend excursions and all your speeding worries will be gone 😀

Edit: Peterfile - get yourself a caravan for your weekend excursions and all your speeding worries will be gone

I've actually got something on my car which allows me to limit the speed to a specified figure. Truthfully, I rarely exceed the speed limit, too worried about clocking up 6 points in my first two years, but if I have drifted over it will be when overtaking...therefore not too sure if limiting my cars speed is particularly safe in those circumstances.

more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served - i.e. a reduction in accidents.

I've never been under any impression that they're there just to reduce accidents. It's a good old money making scheme too. I'd be annoyed if I was in your shoes, but as someone said above, it's just another tax.

stilltortoise - Member

more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served - i.e. a reduction in accidents./quote]

I've never been under any impression that they're there just to reduce accidents. It's a good old money making scheme too. I'd be annoyed if I was in your shoes, but as someone said above, it's just another tax.

It's really not.

 

A tax on those who fail to adhere to the law? Seems fair

If they wanted to make money they'd be far more arseholey about it than they are.

There are loads of places where everyone speeds where I live, and they could rake in tons of cash. They don't, I think because they themselves think the speed limit is not necessary in those places.

I wish they would though, because if everyone stuck to the limit there it'd make traffic flow far better and merging etc would be much smoother.

It's a tax on lawbreaking I suppose 😉 And bad obs.

Seriously though, it's a "there but for the grace of god"- it's a big, fast, straight road with visibility all the way to the nearest mountain, and an awful lot of dawdlers on it (ooh, look at the view).

Course, for that reason you also need to be extra careful! I remember coming down from Glencoe on the bike when the car in front suddenly stopped in the middle of the road. Asked if they were OK, could I help? Since y'know, they'd just slammed on the brakes in traffic and stopped in the middle of an A road, presumably there was a reason for that. Oh no, he says, he saw a bird and he thought it might be an eagle. So you've got to plan for that sort of nonsense.

Personally for me, safety is more important than legality but you can't ignore either. I exceed the limit when I deem it reasonable to do so, but my definition of reasonable isn't the law's... and if/when I get caught for it, I will not whine. I especially won't say "Oh, the van wasn't supposed to be there"- the offence isn't "speeding in the vicinity of a speed camera" ffs!

It's really not.

It should be. I like to drive spiritedly, but I can't think of many fairer ways to "tax"* people than fines for breaking the law.

*put in speech marks so we hopefully don't go off at a tangent discussing whether speeding fines are actually taxes or not.

They aren't, they are fines, it's very obvious. People whingeing about it are just being children complaining about not being allowed to do whatever they want. My daughter asks for crisps for breakfast. She'd probably tell you I was being just as unfair and not seeing the whole issue etc etc etc blablabla.

To add insult to injury, in Scotlandshire, we dont even get offered speed awareness courses as alternatives for first offences - they do in England*

*terms and conditions apply

WHich is the reason that Penrith is popular with the Scotch Speeder...

There is a speed camera near Bath that was installed on a dual carriagway before the road was opened. the road has a 50mph limit rather than 60, and the camera was hidden just the other side of a bridge where the road straightens up after a long curve and junction.
The road is a bypass around a village which was a blackspot, and the camera was put there because it was within 2km of a known blackspot.
Tell me that was there to catch speeders to avoid accidents.
It was clearly a revenue generating devise, as it couldn't have been there because of accidents on a road that wasn't even open.

To be fair, there are very few speed cameras in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK

There are one or two hotspots for mobile cameras. The A9 is one, the M80 another and now it seems the A82 is getting more focus.

Speed enforcement in Scotland isn't paticularly intrusive I would say. If it was I would have a lot more points on my license!

[quote=richmtb ]To be fair, there are very few speed cameras in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK
can I just say A68?

I don't care what anyone says they are mainly a money making devices. Up my way I have seen countless number od vans operating right in front of the fixed speed camera (when you know the road it can be annoying!). But agree a fixed speed camera is usually before a problem junction, black spot etc.

The one where the OP mentions to me (not knowing the road well) is a money making device as you know it will be a busy road, people doing stupid overtakes etc. I can't see how sticking to the speed limit when overtaking is safe, get past and back in as quick as possible. So yiou get penalised for speeding with a safe overtaking move, but can cause an accident overtaking at the speed limit. Think I know what one anyone would choose! Hopefully the operator is decent and realises its safer to get past as quick as possible then slow down back to speed limit(if you did!).

Speed limits are a load of crap in my opinion. There are to many variables such as your car, how you are feeling, weather, temperture, other drivers, road surface, etc.

OP - Hope your not done and agree with your point.

So yiou get penalised for speeding with a safe overtaking move, but can cause an accident overtaking at the speed limit

There is a third option of course...

Well you are in good company.

700 odd drivers caught in speedtraps on A9 between Perth and Inverness the other week in 10 days. There was a massive publicity campaign and you can see the vans from the moon.

Worrying that people with such poor observation skills and awareness are driving over the limit. There is a fatality roughly weekly on that road, and campaigners are trying to blame the road. Maybe if less money was spent scraping people off the road and into coffins there might be more for road building ?

Everytime I see a mobile van on the A9 its enforcing the speed limit on the dual carraigway sections rather than the single carraigeway sections.

Surely the single carraigeway sections are more dangerous and deserve the focus.

Or are they simply placing cameras in the sections where they know more people will speed.

I agree its a dangerous road and needs to be enforced but it needs to be done properly otherwise the usual criticisms of "revenue generation" seem justified

There is a third option of course...

Speeding, getting penalised, and causing an accident! Hopefully that will never occur! (by a camera van!)

[quote=richmtb ]Everytime I see a mobile van on the A9 its enforcing the speed limit on the dual carraigway sections rather than the single carraigeway sections.For balance, I've often seen a van on single carraigeway sections of the A9. However, as already pointed out above, placement is determined by the need to have a decent straight with good visibility for the camera.

It's not 'revenue generation' it's penalising people for speeding.

What speed where you going at?

I know that road very well, and it's not all that wise to go hell for leather along it as deer have a nice wee tendency to jump onto the road without warning.

I'm guessing that you already know the rules regarding disqualification and retesting on newly qualified drivers.

Take it as a rap on the knuckles and learn that you need to improve your observation and decision making in the car.

For balance, I've often seen a van on single carraigeway sections of the A9. However, as already pointed out above, placement is determined by the need to have a decent straight with good visibility for the camera.

To be fair my comment is from a fairly limited set of observations. And the fact that the one and only speeding ticket the wife got was on a dual carraigeway section of the A9!

I don't drive on it very often (too many speed cameras!)

Its an interesting one though. Given the rules about where they can site speed cameras they are pretty much always going to be placed on stretches of road that are "overtaking opportunities"

druidh - Member

richmtb » To be fair, there are very few speed cameras in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK

can I just say A68?

[quote=richmtb ]To be fair my comment is from a fairly limited set of observations. And the fact that the one and only speeding ticket the wife got was on a dual carraigeway section of the A9!
I don't drive on it very often (too many speed cameras!)
Your observation skills really are poor then 😉 The only [i]fixed[/i] speeding cameras between Perth and Inverness are at Dunkeld (Northbound) and Blair Atholl (Southbound).

On single carriageway you tend to be limited by the caravan driver in front of you. Dual carriageways allow the Audi drivers amongst us a mandate to drive 3 inches from your bumper thus can actually be more dangerous.

Your observation skills really are poor then The only fixed speeding cameras between Perth and Inverness are at Dunkeld (Northbound) and Blair Atholl (Southbound).

But still on the A9, there are an additional two north/east bound - one at Blackford and one at Auchterader plus a south/west bound one at Blackford too.

MS - speed limits are a load of crap in my opinion. There are to many variables such as your car, how you are feeling, weather, temperture, other drivers, road surface, etc.

ehhh... no they are a MAXIMUM speed if all the other things are in order, not a target. If the conditions dictate you reduce from the MAX not increase when favourable.

Custard Cream?

sometimes i feel bad about driving at the speed limit cos of the odd obviously furious driver screaming and swearing at me in my rear view mirror... but then i remember that only a complete and utter crusty underbeard gets that angry about somebody daring to drive at 60 on a single carriage way or 70 on a motorway. if i'm overtaking slower vehicles i have every right to move into the overtaking lanes on a motorway whether they wanted to be doing 90+ or not.

Bearing in mind that your speedometer probably over-reads by maybe 10% or so. So whilst you're happily 'doing the speed limit', you're actually doing nearer 60mph on that dual carriageway.

Not that I'm saying you have to strive towards doing exactly the posted speed at all times; drive at whatever speed you like, of course. Just, worth considering next time you're making yourself into a rolling roadblock in the outside lane and wondering why the guy behind with a GPS speed display is getting a little frustrated.

Also, arguably, just because you [i]can [/i]do something, doesn't mean you should. I have every right to stand in a doorway doing up a soluble child's coat, for instance.

If someone drives up fast behind me, I'll try my best to get out of the way. It's not my place to punish speeders or get all pissy about it just because they're going faster than I am. I've no idea what their motives are; they could just be an impatient arsehole, or they might have just got a call that their child has fifteen minutes left to live for all I know.

Besides, if someone is pushing to drive at licence-losing speeds, I'd rather they did it in front of me than on my back bumper.

I was under the impression that they could struggle to get an accurate reading if there are other cars nearby.

I'd expect that would be wholly dependent on the type of technology being used.

I'd expect that would be wholly dependent on the type of technology being used.

So we need the most super duper 'with it' GPS in order to accurately not piss people off?

I'll just look at the speedo, thanks. Works for me.

i do try to get out of the way... but if i'm overtaking a long line of cars doing 50 approaching an exit i'll sit at the middle of what my speedo says is 70 and what my sat nav says is 70... so speedo reading about 73-74mph. i'm not going to race up to 90 just because a fool appears behind me or pull over if there isnt a safe gap to do so.

its not my place to punish other drivers for driving faster than me no, thats down to the 5.0 if they're around to catch em, but i wont be forced into risking my life or other drives life because they want to break the speed limit.

if they've recieved a call saying their kids got 15 minutes to live they're probably not in the mindset to be driving safely at 20-30mph over the speed limit so i'm not going to start entertaining every possibility about why somebody might be doing those speeds when i'm not.

Now if you were on a bike, you'd be able to overtake at will [i]and[/i] reduce your chances of getting a ticket... A lot of those vans take front on piccies and these don't work so well on a boik 🙂 Poddy will be along soon to help out 😉

So we need the most super duper 'with it' GPS in order to accurately not piss people off?

I'll just look at the speedo, thanks. Works for me.

Sorry, I thought Mark was tangentially talking about speed cameras for a minute there.

Anyway, that wasn't really the point I was making. Just that if you're going to take the moral high ground on the basis that you're "doing the speed limit" and so everyone else can lump it, the chances are that you're not actually doing the limit at all.

So your stance should actually be "I'm doing about 90% of the limit," which somewhat invalidates the fundamental premise that anyone daring to overtake you is breaking the law.

bigyinn - Member
Completely ruined a lovely road to drive quickly. Good visibility and decent surface. Begged to be driven fast.

If you want to drive fast book a track day.

i'm not going to race up to 90 just because a fool appears behind me or pull over if there isnt a safe gap to do so.

Sure. I don't think anyone was suggesting you should?

if they've recieved a call saying their kids got 15 minutes to live they're probably not in the mindset to be driving safely at 20-30mph over the speed limit so i'm not going to start entertaining every possibility about why somebody might be doing those speeds when i'm not.

... which is why it's best practice to get the hell out of their way, IMHO. (-:

Sorry, I was talking about cameras I thought the problem was the signal could bounce off the wrong car giving a false reading

Now if speed cameras also recorded tailgating, they'd be a little less unpopular.

Now if speed cameras also recorded tailgating, they'd be a little less unpopular.

I would dearly welcome tailgating cameras.

why dont people leave earlier? then there'd be none of this rushing around and speeding surely.

I would dearly welcome tailgating cameras.

+1squillionz

and box junctions, why dont people understand box junctions!?

well done you've just added an hour onto everyone in reading's journey by locking up the entire one way system through town because you can't use a box junction.

and box junctions, why dont people understand box junctions!?

HULK SMASH!!

I drive the A9 north to Inverness quite often and it is a lethal road, what it needs more than anything else in the short term is average speed cameras. I think putting white crosses at each fatality location like they do in australia would get people to reel it in a bit too, there have been so many fatal accidents on the road they would be a constant reminder.

People seem to think its OK to do ridiculous speeds overtaking traffic, but it just makes the consequences that much worse - I've driven past the remains of head on crashes and the remains of the cars are just unrecognisable, is it really worth putting your engine where your body used to be and doing the same to someone innocent, when everyone you overtake will be 20 feet behind you in the queue at the next roadworks lights anyway?

I don't care what anyone says they are mainly a money making devices.

If that were true then everyone exceeding the limit by 1mph would be prosecuted.

Exactly the same thing happened to me on the A65. Bit north of Settle heading south where you get a 3 lane bit. I'd been stuck behind a 40mph chap for a while and overtook. It was straight, road clear, so I nipped past. When I saw the copper with his hand camera I was doing nearly 70mph. My fault for letting go a bit, I needn't have, but I wanted to get the manoeuvre done. I spent the next 2 weeks on tenterhooks having never had a conviction of any kind. Guess the copper used his discretion. Made me think though - just how much of a hurry am I in?

I hate the A9. Every time you get to a long straight, there is at least one set of headlights bearing down on you on the wrong side of the road, in a very dodgy overtake. If the person coming the other way has to brake hard to make room for you, it's not a safe overtake !

But I guess if you have ninja driving skills and the latest GPS technology then you know better than me.

They should put up those signs "X number of people killed in the next 8 miles since December".

I get quite angry about this, so much risk and such violent death if it doesn't work out, just to get home 20 mins earlier.

when everyone you overtake will be 20 feet behind you in the queue at the next roadworks lights anyway?

There's nothing wrong with overtaking safely.
Its called making progress and on long journeys that are mainly single carraigeway it makes a big difference to journey times.

The A82 is single carrage way all the way from Ballock to Inverness.

So if you were setting out to head to say Spean Bridge thats over 90 miles of single carraigeway. Thats 90 minutes of driving at 60mph or 135 minutes driving stuck behind someone at 40mph (in reality your average speed is lower than both due to villages etc but you get my point)

I hate the A9

To be fair the A9 is probably an exception to the idea of making progress. Its busy enoough to make most overtakes in the single carraigeway section either dangerous or pointless. I just wait to the dual carraigeway bits.

I hate it too!

Lifer - Member

bigyinn - Member
Completely ruined a lovely road to drive quickly. Good visibility and decent surface. Begged to be driven fast.

If you want to drive fast book a track day.