MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Examples have to be made of these critters.If not other children will find it acceptable to behave in such a way.
Examples do have to be made, examples of the parents. Appropriate punishment should be handed out to them. If the Children are morally unaware of there actions are they any different to an animal that attacks after an horendous upbringing.
Punishment for the parents and an inquiry into how the system let things get this far should be the first things on our minds. The situation is horrific but one that we hope not to see again if it can be avoided
Their primary school and mine feed the same secondary. I'm asking myself if I'm happy with one of them joining my kids form in school in five years. I can't say yes to that.
i saw plenty of children during my 3 tours of bosnia that had been brought up with/subjected to some terrible treatment torture/rape/murder of family and no doubt worse
Presumably most of those kids had some exposure to a loving family though? I suspect it is easier for a young mind to see that something is wrong/bad when it's an external person that arrives and commits those acts.
When the very people who should be bringing you up and teaching you these things are drugging and torturing you then I suspect the effect is far more insidious.
But still, are you saying that all children in Bosnia are well behaved because their legal system is much better at dealing with child offenders??
...mass graves and ethnic cleansing
So clearly no signs of a cycle of violence then? 🙄
Double entry
mi©k - Membercoyote yes ive got four as it happens. my point was not so much that a 10 year old is the same as a 16 year old but why cant a 16 year old be treated and turned around if the ten year old can. or why dont they really seem to attempt to at least try ?
You can with a 16 yr old and good prisons will try to. Rehabilitation is a part of what prisons should do.
The real difference is that we can expect a 16 yr old to know right from wrong, we cannot at 10 yrs old.
ah but graham that was the adults doing that and they according to most cant be helped as theyve already broken their moral compass
and not the children over there didnt murder each other out of bordom as they still no doubt knew right from wrong
anyways if they can be cured then good if they cant i hope non of my family are living in the area they get rehomed in
tj i simply cannot believe a ten year old didnt think that what they did was wrong regardless of upbringing. but if they can be fixed then good but i hope the two lads they did it to have as much time and effort put into trying to turn their lives around too and they too can have some kind of normality brought to their lives.
barnsleymitch - Member
"What surer way to minimise the risk of reoffending than to lock them up forever?"
Because life sentences in this country only rarely mean life. If you look back at my other posts on here, I'm sure you'll see that I'm not saying they shouldnt have recieved a custodial sentence, but should be given adequate and appropriate help whilst serving that sentence - I agree that what they did was vile, evil even, but the bottom line is that they are children.
The bottom line is surely that they have ruined somebody's life. They have lost all their rights to any sense of normal life. If this involves locking them up and forgettign about them, then so be it. They do not DESERVE to be allowed to walk the streets. Not for the fact that they may reoffend, (as already said, probably likely) but because they simply no not DESERVE to be around. If they had done the same to my children, I wouldn't be concerned about using them as a study to understand why they did it. I know why they did it. Their parents are idiots. The kids are ten, and in my eyes, completely aware of what they were doing. No psychology about this and that. They're evil. Simple.
I genuinely wonder if we can ever sort out kids like these. I hope we can. Ideally we would have a good system of adoption in place, as the statistics suggest that kids brought in car have a fair chance of being further abused and ending up in prison.
In my opinion, there should be serious consequences for the parents. Preferably longer jail sentences than the kids get. Something needs to be done to give the message that people need to bring their kids up in a sane manner.
the children over there didnt murder each other out of bordom as they still no doubt knew right from wrong
And was that because they knew they would face execution?
No psychology about this and that. They're evil. Simple.
You mean the devil made them do it?
Maybe we should consult a priest. 🙄
mi©k - Membertj i simply cannot believe a ten year old didnt think that what they did was wrong regardless of upbringing. but if they can be fixed then good but i hope the two lads they did it to have as much time and effort put into trying to turn their lives around too and they too can have some kind of normality brought to their lives.
thank you for actually thinking about this rather than just jerking that knee.
"but if they can be fixed then good but i hope the two lads they did it to have as much time and effort put into trying to turn their lives around too and they too can have some kind of normality brought to their lives. "
I hope so to.
Someone needs to be punished for this. Blame and consequently the punishment should first and foremost be distributed to the parents. Secondly the Social Services needs a complete and utter overhaul, like from the ground up. There role, as i understand at least, is to be the safety net for children such as these little shites. As in this case, they were and had been involved with this 'family' for years, then what the hell have they been doing...But no they walk away and move on to the next 'case', unpunished or even questioned. Also the people who committed this act of sustained violence must be punished. How, well i will keep that to myself, but they must realise that there is a consequence to their actions.
Finally the 'true' victims in all of this, the poor kids who were put through the sinks, bricks and other ridiculous items that they were battered with, the ones who have really been at the rough end of the failings i have already put down must be compensated. By whom...
Who else but the government, they are the over-seeyers of every single thing that goes off in this country... The end
GrahamS - MemberNo psychology about this and that. They're evil. Simple.
You mean the devil made them do it?
Maybe we should consult a priest.
No GrahamS. I didn't say the devil made them do it, did I now?!
quite possibly it was graham s i will never know as im not going back ;-0
anyway like ive said lets hope all four kids can be turned around to some kind of normal life
The only thing I hope for is that they are not allowed to breed until they have shown themselves to be relatively normal (whatever 'normal' is) after secure rehabilitation.
The last thing we need is for this level of violence to go to the next generation.
I'll never have kids (the idea scares me because of the responsibility of looking after another life!) but the idea that having children is a right and not a privilege is waaay out with these two.
No GrahamS. I didn't say the devil made them do it, did I now?!
So what made them "evil" if it wasn't psychology or the devil? Martians maybe?
"Evil" is a cop out word that people use to reassure themselves.
It suggests that some other thing is responsible.
What they did was evil, but to suggest they simply did it [u]because[/u] "they're evil" is as meaningful as saying they were possessed by demons.
anyway like ive said lets hope all four kids can be turned around to some kind of normal life
Agreed.
No child of ten has a fully developed moral compass
When I was ten, if I stayed out after the time I was supposed to be home I knew I was in trouble!
If at ten years old, regardless of exposure to whatever films/ video games etc have supposedly corrupted them, they couldn't tell that extreme violence was wrong then they deserve to taken out of normal society. If they are unable to be rehabilitated then they do not deserve to ever rejoin society.
Edit: I couldn't see it mentioned on the BBC site but I assume the father will be charged with obstructing the course of justice:
A short time later, as police and locals gathered to search for the 11-year-old who was still missing, officers were approached by the attackers and their father.He said his sons had been with him and were not responsible for any attack. The two brothers just stood there and at no time volunteered any information about where their victim was lying.
dickydutch - I find your suggestion that I feel the most appropriate course of action regarding the two boys would be to 'use them as a study to understand why they did it' both naive and insulting -(I presume that the comment was aimed at either me or TJ). You're absolutely right, the victims lives have effectively been ruined, and our priorities should lie with them, but the children who carried out the attack had their lives ruined a long time ago. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out why they did it either - no boundaries, 'parents' who never gave a toss, exposure to drink and drugs, overexposure to sex and violence - not difficult is it? If anyone should be 'punished', it's the parents, but that's unlikely to happen, and ultimately wont make what happened go away.
barnsleymitch - ygm
TJ - email in profile.
barnsleymitch - Member
dickydutch - I find your suggestion that I feel the most appropriate course of action regarding the two boys would be to 'use them as a study to understand why they did it' both naive and insulting -(I presume that the comment was aimed at either me or TJ). You're absolutely right, the victims lives have effectively been ruined, and our priorities should lie with them, but the children who carried out the attack had their lives ruined a long time ago. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out why they did it either - no boundaries, 'parents' who never gave a toss, exposure to drink and drugs, overexposure to sex and violence - not difficult is it? If anyone should be 'punished', it's the parents, but that's unlikely to happen, and ultimately wont make what happened go away.
Fair cop. It has come across like that though - admittedly not from yourself when re-reading.
You seem to imply that the kids shouldn't be punished though? That, to me, is illogical. It certainly doesn't teach them to be responsible for their own actions.
No GrahamS. I didn't say the devil made them do it, did I now?!So what made them "evil" if it wasn't psychology or the devil? Martians maybe?
"Evil" is a cop out word that people use to reassure themselves.
It suggests that some other thing is responsible.What they did was evil, but to suggest they simply did it because "they're evil" is as meaningful as saying they were possessed by demons.
How is it a cop out word? It's an adjective as per:
Evil–adjective 1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition
Sadly no reference to martians, or how it is used as a form of reassuring oneself that something else is responsible for the depraved actions of someone.
This notion that they didn't know that what they were doing was wrong is pissweak. Hitler thought what he was doing was right!
Am I the only person who's read articles about their mother lacing their food with cannabis? All the "blame the parents" comments seem to be focussing on the father, but the bits I've read imply that the mother wasn't any better.
I'd be in favour of stringing the parents up, and trying to civilise the kids, but I don't have kids or experience of psychiatric work, so that's just an opinion.
Do we know whether the victims have made a physical recovery?
Dicky - I've worked in forensic psychiatry for over twenty years, and only twice in that time have I come across people that I feel deserved the description 'evil'. Both were well publicised, high profile cases, but as they are still alive, It would no doubt land me in the s**t if I were to discuss them further. More often than not, people who carry out these kind of acts are very much damaged themselves. I'm not saying this excuses their actions - at the end of the day we (usually) have a choice in what we do, but in situations such as this, where kids are the perpetrators, we just dont know how developed or otherwise their moral compasses were. I'm rambling a bit here, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I dont feel the two boys were (entirely) responsible for what they did. I'm not for one minute trying to 'excuse' their actions or minimise what they did, I just feel that the people who were supposed to be providing a safe, appropriate environment for them have played their part in this sad affair as well.
How is it a cop out word? It's an adjective as per:
It's a cop out because you are saying that they did it, not as a result of their terrible upbringing, their own abuse, their morale-less environment, or any [i]"psychology about this and that"[/i], but purely because [i]"They're evil. Simple."[/i]
The truth is, it's not "simple".
You may wish it to be so: that way we could deploy righteous mob mentality and punish them. String them up without a second thought. No point wondering if there are any lessons to be learned that could prevent this, because there aren't. They were just inherently "evil".
That's why it's a cop out.
By declaring someone "evil" as the justification for their actions you are disassociating yourself from them. You're reassuring yourself that there is no possible way YOU would have ever done that, when the far uglier truth is that any child brought up as they were, could turn out the same.
barnsleymitch.
I understand and appreciate you have more relevant experience than me - indeed, I have zero relevant experience.
I feel a lot of it boils down to the fact that recently, parents seem to be able to leave their kids to do whatever they want, with little or no consequence. I thinkt he whole system needs addressing fromt he bottom up.
I enjoyed the verbal spar!
Graham S.
We're going to have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.
They maybe weren't born evil but they sure are now, they've been dealt a shit hand in life which has made them evil. I don't know if its possible to undo that.
Now if you want to start a 'hang draw and quarter the parents' thread, I'll join in without (too much) persuasion 😈
Now if you want to start a 'hang draw and quarter the parents' thread, I'll join in without (too much) persuasion
+1
BoardinBob - Member<other quote>No child of ten has a fully developed moral compass</other quote>
When I was ten, if I stayed out after the time I was supposed to be home I knew I was in trouble!
That's exactly the point - you'd be in trouble, but with your Dad. You wouldn't be thinking "I'd better get home now, or I'll be half-asleep at school tomorrow and won't be able to study". Your sense of moral responsability would be pretty limited - and if your Dad didn't care what time you got home, or the fights you got into, what would stop you?
+1 for kick the hell out of social services.
They will dodge doing anything if there's any difficulty in doing it (ie, being old to f-off by the man of the house). To the point where there are cases where women move in their new chap who's a known sex offender, kids will be in genuine danger and they won't do anything about it. Or a kid's been kicked out by their parents, but SS won't do anything because it's the weekend. They are absolutely unreal.
And whilst I'm at it, most of the services designed to engage with these sorts of parents fail. Surestart is a case in point - the govts own research says the impact it makes is unmeasurable, and it's because the people who engage with these services aren't the problem parents.
mogrim - well put. Nice to see there are some who can think on this forum. Thats exactly the point
Three pages and I still haven't a clue what you're all on about, a link in the first post would have been useful.
Edukator - theres a link from the thread entitled "Absolutely shocking, dispicable, and many other words not suitable...." elsewhere on the forum.
Sometimes my stance against the death penalty is somewhat stretched...
^^ MUDDYDWARF
It was definitely a sick and amoral attack, but these are kids, FFS. Are you honestly suggesting we strap them to a table and snuff out their lives?
What they should get is thorough psychiatric help - indefinite if necessary - which in 5, 10, 15 years or whatever, will allow them to lead a normal and fruitful life.
I doubt you'd argue that had these kids enjoyed the privileged upbringing any of us have, they wouldn't have attacked the other two boys.
It really annoys me that they will get more care and help and money spent on them than their victims will.
Thank you Mitch, that thread is now on page two or well beyond where I normally look.
As I can't think of anything to say that wouldn't be slagged of by the social worker types I won't comment.
For those that think the sentence is soft [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/the-end-of-innocence-inside-britains-child-prisons-1874053.html ]this article[/url] in Yesterdays Independent might help dispel that notion.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/the-end-of-innocence-inside-britains-child-prisons-1874053.html ]This article[/url] in the Independent yesterday should help explain the regime the two damaged boys will be subject to. It didn't seem that soft to me.
Where is Henry VIII when you want him?
Feed them to the poor starving salt water crocodile ... parents too.
SSsshhiiiitteeee!
😈
Kuco - MemberIt really annoys me that they will get more care and help and money spent on them than their victims will.
and you know this how? Imprisoning them cost 30 000 pa so there is some money - £600 000 for the 20 yrs some folk want them to get.
The boys who were beaten will get support and help - and more than likely will recover well and easily - that sort of trauma can be dealt with well.
[i] more than likely will recover well and easily [/i]
What a load of bollocks. Where the heck do you get your rose tinted glasses from TJ not matter what scroate or scum bag does anything wrong that is posted on here you defend them.
TandemJeremy - MemberKuco - Member
and you know this how? Imprisoning them cost 30 000 pa so there is some money - £600 000 for the 20 yrs some folk want them to get.
The boys who were beaten will get support and help - and more than likely will recover well and easily - that sort of trauma can be dealt with well.
Henry VIII style or feed them to the crocs ... priceless!
😆
I'm generally pretty right wing about most things, and with law and order I'm usually in the "hang 'em and flog 'em" camp. However these are still children, and having heard what they've been through I think they deserve another chance. It might be too late, an d maybe they are beyond help, but we owe it to them to try, after letting them grow up with scum as parents.
As for the parents, well I would flog 'em, and sterilise the pair of them too.
As for those who say "well what if they'd done it to your kids" then I'd say "well what if it were your kids that had done it".
kennyp -"... "well what if it were your kids that had done it"".
Same ... Feed them to the poor starving salt water crocs or Henry VIII style. Simple.
😈
hmmmm how many liberal wet fish? yes these boys are just boys, yes they have had a bad life, yes the social should have been on the case but THEY TORTURED AND NEARLY KILLED TWO YOUNG LADS- Are you lot mad- of course these couple of scrotes are criminals and they couldnt give a **** about it either. Let em rot- dont waste the money and energy on them that could be used to save other youngsters from a similar life.
Kuco - I am not defending the boys from anything but the lynch mob mentality.
Its my understanding that traumatised children such as the ones that are beaten in this incident can and likely will recover well. Yes tehy will need serious counselling and yes they might be mentally scared for life but children are resilient and do recover.
You on the other hand are asserting without any knowledge or evidence. Worked in the criminal justice system as I have ? worked with disturbed children as barnsleymitch has? Some understanding of psycopathic personality disorder?
Gunners - and that achieve what exactly? The two perpetrators are badly damaged CHILDREN
No your right I have no experience but I know one thing I'm with gunners hang the ****ers they won't be able to do it again.
Kuco - these are children were talking about. Fu**ed up - definitely, Dangerous - certainly, evil - like I said before, I've not come up against many truly 'evil' people in my career so I'll pass on that one. I could understand it more if it was the parents you were demanding were hung, but children?
So children of ten years old that have been neglected, beaten, fed drugs, viewed violent films and porn and as a result of this appalling upbringing have committed an nasty crime should be hung? really logical that is.
The worst thing about this crime is I find myself agreeing with TJ 🙄
Out of interest, of the people saying "string them up": how many of you have kids of that age? I've got a 9 year old daughter, intelligent, pretty well adjusted (as well as any female can be 🙂 ), but she's nowhere near an adult's level of empathy, she doesn't think things through the way an adult would... There's no way I would consider her responsible enough to be tried in an adult court, were she to commit a crime.
Well I can honestly say TJ i've never been accused of thinking logical.
Sorry Mogrim.
as usual - the middle ground is - unexciting - but the correct position. obviously, stringing them up is nuts. but all this overly fashionable left wing pc nonsense drives me nuts!
and mogrim - i have kids and all i can think about is the actual victims. the poor kids that were tortured.
spending any amount of time talking about these kids (perpetrators) - is a waste.
and by the way - my 5 year old ABSOLUTELY knows right from wrong. All 10 year olds do - irrespective of upbringing.
pjbarton. some adults never learn right from wrong. go read up on psycopaths A five year old will very rarely understand right from wrong in the abstract. What she knows is what Daddy says is wrong - not the same thing and not what these kids could possibly do as their parents gave them such a warped upbringing.
The fact that children cannot understand right from wrong is why we have an age of criminal culpability.
had a rethink and am not so sure now. does evilness run in genes, or is it learnt?
"all this overly fashionable left wing pc nonsense drives me nuts!"
What do you do for a living PJ? I dont do what I do because it's fashionable FFS, I do it because I want to make a difference. I've read through every post on this thread, and unless I'm missing something, I havent read anything that suggests we give the perpetrators a cuddle and a nice holiday - some people state that they're badly damaged children that need help, the rest seem to be demanding the death sentence (which we no longer have in this country) for kids! I for one have stated that the victims should be a priority, and yes I've got kids as well - what difference does that make? The so called parents of these two had kids, and it doesnt seem to have made much difference to them. Sorry if I seem to be jumping down your throat, it just appears that unless we're agreeing that the boys should be put to death, we automatically become bleeding heart liberals.
I blame TJ.
Kuco - I'm used to it. As a white middle-class man of English protestant descent I am the oppressor personified. I ain't even ginger!
Ask any oppressed group and you will find the oppressor is a white middle-class man of English protestant descent
lol@Kuco!
All 10 year olds do - irrespective of upbringing.
My wife works with psychopaths, they have [b]no[/b] idea that what they are doing is wrong. None. At best you can teach them that what they are doing is socially unacceptable, but it's not a lesson they actually understand, more something they do because if they don't something bad will happen to them.
With parents like the ones these kids had, what chance is there of them thinking something bad will happen to them for beating up some other kid?
TJ - i don't buy it. People who commit crimes know it's 'wrong' - morally unacceptable. but they're happy to step over the line - to varying degrees. surely no-one thinks a rapist believes it's the 'right' thing to do?!
children can be nasty but they don't take it to extremes. not normal children. incidents like this and the jamie bulger case are very rare because most kids are simply not capable of this.
all the angry nonsense press from the mail etc poisons - makes people believe there's bombers on every plane, pedophiles in every school - and murderous kids on every corner. it's not reality
Ask any oppressed group and you will find the oppressor is a white middle-class man of English protestant descent
Personally, I find that kind of generalisation fairly offensive, borderline racist. Please, no, I insist: take it back.
"and by the way - my 5 year old ABSOLUTELY knows right from wrong. All 10 year olds do - irrespective of upbringing."
I'm sorry to have to be so graphic, and I'll apologise to everyone before I say this, but I've worked with 10 year olds who have been systematically sexually abused by their parents - they didnt think it was wrong, it was 'normal' for them, because they'd lived with it for most of their young lives - dont tell me that all kids know right from wrong, it's not always the case.
TJ - i don't buy it. People who commit crimes know it's 'wrong' - morally unacceptable. but they're happy to step over the line - to varying degrees. surely no-one thinks a rapist believes it's the 'right' thing to do?!
No, they might understand it's socially unacceptable, but not necessarily morally so.
"She deserved it" is still alive and kicking as a justification for rape.
and by the way - my 5 year old ABSOLUTELY knows right from wrong. All 10 year olds do - irrespective of upbringing.
Absolutely! Lots of kids these days seem to have the mentality that they can do what they want and get away with it!
barnsleymitch - we're probably agreeing to the greater extent. i'm sure these kids need help (they're severely damaged) - i just think all the efforts - the attention - should be for the victims.
anyone genuinely suggesting the death sentence should shut up - be ashamed etc.
but wow!.. i can't bare to think of my kids hurt like this.
again - it's a balance - a few 'normal' scraps are going to happen. i'll deal with that!
i have a design agency by the way - as you asked
Until deprived, uneducated people are not grouped together in the same uneducated and deprived areas breading uneducated and deprived children this type of problem will not go away. Ultimately this and the canal behaviour occurs because parents and society do not know how to or often care about bringing their children.
There is clearly a lack of security, love and attention given to children from deprived families at an age where they need it to develop. Until this fundamental fault with society is sorted this type of behaviour will continue, this is not a modern problem but I do not think technology has helped the situation. When parents believe that an uncensored television or violet games console makes a worthy substitute for their time, love and affection children of an impressionable age will grow up to think it normal to act in violent ways and show a lack of emotion, respect and passion towards other individuals.
The tenet areas of Glasgow are a perfect example of this; hiding and ignoring the underprivileged lead to a huge influx of crime and violence. At the age of 10 all you know is the environment you have grown up in, if this is dirty, deprived and volatile then this will seem normal. Until families like this are educated, lifted from poverty and accepted into society this problem will get worse.
It is clearly not the children’s fault, they knew what they did was wrong, but not the extent of their crime. They also are not aware of the extent of their sentence. The uneducated parents are certainly to blame because they created a volatile atmosphere whilst the children grew up, but should they be punished? Surly the way families like this are left to rot on the fringes of society plays a huge part in these types of crimes, so if you really want to ‘sort out’ these kind of children education and motivation would be far more helpful than hanging or jail.
PJ - I'm just feeling overly sensitive because of what I do for a living (I work with both victims and perpetrators of acts not dissimilar to the one were talking about), and being viewed as a spineless liberal by people with (thank god) little or no experience in this field.
pj - you may not buy it but listen to an expert - barnsleymitch.
many normal children find right from wrong [i] in the abstract[/i] hard to understand. Given the very abnormal childhood these children have had then I am confident they simply did not understand. Its about empathy and the ability to reason in the abstract - both difficult concepts and something you have to learn.
These children saw violence as normal and something to be done for entertainment
Alwyn - spot on. TJ - I'm not worthy.
These children say violence as normal and something to be done for entertainment
I'll call BS on that statement. I'm sure the mother looked happy when the father was beating on her or whatever else happened, likewise if the kids were beaten i'm sure they know how horrible it is. the kids themselves said it was because the were bored, they just didn't think about the consequences as they had probably gotten away with a ton of other stuff before this.
I still agree that it was their upbringing that made them turn out like that, but it doesn't excuse all responsibility.
well barnsleymitch - i'm sure you know plenty more about this than me - and i'm happy to shut up and drink my wine and watch billy fuc&ing piper. - i haven't read the whole thread. i would reiterate that a balanced, intelligent view point is, while uninteresting, the best place to be.
good luck for the victim's recovery.
barneslymitch - amongst the welter of ill-informed ranting on here you are the nearest we have
pjbarton - Member. i would reiterate that a balanced, intelligent view point is, while uninteresting, the best place to be.
amen to that
" TJ - I'm not worthy." - a bit sycophantic?!
anyway - goodnight all. it's probably a good thing people care enough to talk about this stuff.