[Closed] Migrants from Africa, what to do?

Nicely written post, can't see any good coming from it though.

It's one of those 'there is no answer' things, but then I'm not a master in the various complexities of international issues.

Look after them when they arrive, try to get them involved in doing something useful.

Work like **** to help make the places they have come from the kind of place people want to stay in.

Help people get back there when it's safe to do so, but don't deport people.

We need an EU run reception area / camp in north Africa where it is relatively politically stable for the refugee's to aim for and get vetted there to take the trafficers out of the equation. Publicise its position so people actually go there.

Ah! Not a thread about the the first Swallows then.

how do we discourage a constant tide of economic migrants if they see their compatriots being looked after in Europe

I don't think you can stop being decent human beings to people in need just to stop them coming over.

It is a problem for Europe, in the short term a better coastguard system to either stop them departing or help them when it goes wrong. But in the long term Europe probably needs to help out its neighbours. Which will probably cost a lot more than putting up immigrants over here and take a very long time.

(Drac's post made me smile!)

"Work like **** to help make the places they have come from the kind of place people want to stay in."

"Oh, and here's hoping that we can discuss a serious topic without hysteria" good luck with that.

and
"Look after them when they arrive, try to get them involved in doing something useful.

Work like **** to help make the places they have come from the kind of place people want to stay in.

Help people get back there when it's safe to do so, but don't deport people. "
The above is the answer or 90% of it -10% for omitting don't leave them to drown in the med "pour discourager les autres" which is the current stated government policy.

Syria, Somalia, Libya - are such complete holes.

Therein lies the problem, no?

No real idea where to start with that one, but the current plan of "fixing" countries by forcibly installing "democracy" isn't going quite so well.

The thing is.... those fleeing war-ravaged hell-holes full of tooled up fundamentalist nutters, to head for a place of peace and stability, are merely doing what any logical rational person would do.

The more rational, logical people there are, the more will be heading our way. So we have to find a way to deal with that. There is a large element of 'you broke it, you own it', as we have to shoulder some responsibility for whats happening in a lot of these countries.

Maybe distribute them all between Tony Blairs many properties?

Hack into Elysium ?

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Halting weapons sales and scaling back involvement of intelligence services in destabilizing countries who have the potential to affect the resource supply to dominant western powers would probably be a very effective strategy in preventing the crises which give rise to refugees in the 1st place.

But then, certain sections of society wouldn't have such healthy portfolios and their influence would diminish and we can't have that.

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preventing the crises which give rise to refugees in the 1st place.

Right, very useful... But 'well, I wouldn't start from here' achieves nothing does it? We are where we are, what do we do next?

Instead of going over old ground, bring us some solutions JHJ!

Processing camps in Africa sounds viable - I presume the idea is that anyone reaching Europe or found at sea is taken there and thrn evaluated as a genuine refugee or not?

Let's do the decent thing and save their lives before worrying about what we are going to do with them.

If we can't house them in Europe, seeing as we started the problem, maybe we should negotiate with the "baddies" to get a chunk of land in North Africa as a safe refuge. Naturally it would have to be physically protected, but that's a better use of armed forces than waging war.

Naive, I know, but still better than letting folk die in huge numbers.

Desperate situation and with "ISIS" in Libya murdering another group of hostages the flow is only going to increase.

This Vice News documentary shows it not just boats to Italy but a problem for Spain and Greece too.

[url= https://news.vice.com/show/europe-or-die ]Vice News: Europe or Die[/url]

The medium term solution is to prevent them from coming by sealing off the ports in North Africa but this requires local government support and reasonably stable administrations.

The short term solution may be to refuse asylum to all people trying to enter illegally like this. The fact is these desperate people know if they can be rescued they have a good chance of being allowed to stay in Europe.

If the rescue operation is upscaled the number of people trying to make such a crossing is going to increase dramatically.

Right, very useful... But 'well, I wouldn't start from here' achieves nothing does it? We are where we are, what do we do next?

Prevention is better than cure... given the number of other situations brewing up due to western intervention, it would be wise to change policy accordingly, before tensions increase further and the exodus reaches true epidemic proportions.

In countries affected, we should do everything possible to curb tensions, by halting supply of ammunition...

Regarding refugees, we should offer them aid and safe haven. The bill should be presented to the arms manufacturers and brokers.

Its a very difficult situation, one that is certainly raising some interesting discussions.

I've been following the comments on some newspaper websites and I have to say the Guardian website had me in stitches (for all the wrong reasons).

The vast majority of comments from readers on that site were of the "let them drown, we have no room here" or "tow them back to Africa" variety.

It really shows you that the mentality of some on the left aren't as far off the right as one would think.

Personally I think that a multifaceted approach is needed, one which targets the traffickers (Interpol, other international crime agencies) to stop these boats getting launched in the first place, the opening of an asylum processing center in North Africa to process genuine claims, as well as a return to joint European patrols of the Med to stop these recurring humanitarian tragedies.

One reservation about the idea of a refugee camp in North Africa...

Are we just building another Gaza?

@devash, the Guardian might be a left leaning paper but plenty of right wing posters enjoy the fact it's a free website.

InterPol isn't going to work as Libya is completely lawless at the present time.

Are we just building another Gaza?

That depends if the west is continuing to aid regimes (financially, politically and militarily) which attack and subjugate the populace.

"It really shows you that the mentality of some on the left aren't as far off the right as one would think"

No it really shows cif is trolled by right wing nutters just as I always engage on daily mail comments about cyclists .

I sat in on a brief about 10-15 yrs ago given by some science types to senior military bods. Thrust of it was twin drivers of climate change (incr water stress equalling higher food prices) and demographics ( lots of young men) would mean North Africa becoming majorly destabilised over coming years, with the observation it was on Europe's doorstep.

Politicians have known its been coming.

Gwaelod - similar topic discussed on my O and A level geography courses.

The fact that they were O and A levels tells you how long ago this was being raised as a long term problem heading our way.

No idea what the solution is - we can't leave them to die, we can't cope with all who will want to come in the next however many years. And it's going to get worse - anti-migrant labour attacks reported in South Africa recently, the whole continent, and the Middle East, are a huge ticking demographic time bomb.

Migrants from Africa, what to do?

Welcome them with open arms, house and feed them?

I think we will house and feed some chewkw, but I dont feel the general public mood is very welcoming.
sympathetic yes.

Problem is what is the long term position for migration, and can the middle east/africa be stabilised?

I am fearful of a new religious war.

Welcome them with open arms, house and feed them?

Until something else is done, absolutely 100%. They have nothing, we have plenty.

Long term to solve the issues, not a clue. It's all a big mess and who knows if meddling has helped or made it worse. Even if it has helped there will be a lot of people who will say it hasn't and use it as an excuse to do something. And that something will probably result in the death and misery of more people who can't do anything about it.

Can't the gods just battle it out for themselves?

Suppose there's not as much profit in that for the arms dealers...

http://www.****/news/article-1370629/Libyan-gun-runner-friend-Prince-Andrew-Tarek-Kaituni-gave-Princess-Beatrice-18k-necklace.html

Sancho - Member

I think we will house and feed some chewkw, but I dont feel the general public mood is very welcoming.
sympathetic yes.

Unfortunately, general public have no say in the matter which is frightening and I think some of them will express their views rather differently.

Problem is what is the long term position for migration, and can the middle east/africa be stabilised?

Provided the foreign policy allows us to set foot back in the soil we messed up by creating buffer zones.

I am fearful of a new religious war.

What religious war? Where? How dare you say that! 😈

andyl - Member
Until something else is done, absolutely 100%. They have nothing, we have plenty.

How many are we absorbing? We have plenty to share ...

Long term to solve the issues, not a clue. It's all a big mess and who knows if meddling has helped or made it worse. Even if it has helped there will be a lot of people who will say it hasn't and use it as an excuse to do something. And that something will probably result in the death and misery of more people who can't do anything about it.

Ya, if you play god, you become the god.

😮

Can the UK cope with say 10,000 or even 5,000

We havent taken many from Syria.

I have no faith in our politicians, or civil service, so lets say we agreed to take 2,000.

how are these handled?
would we build a camp?
use hotels?
social housing? (is there any spare?)

I am doubtful we could organise a lot of drinking in a place that makes alcoholic drinks, so anyone know how it might work

But at the same time simple engineering projects like oil refineries, aircraft carriers, cruise missiles and nuclear submarines just seem to be funded, designed and constructed with minimal fuss.

Amazing what can be achieved when there's profit to be made...

ninfan - Member
One reservation about the idea of a refugee camp in North Africa...

Are we just building another Gaza?

I know. Ironic considering what I think of Israel. 🙂

If we do nothing it will be like the Armenian genocide all over again.

Hitler's "final solution" was apparently based on the fact no one bothered about the annihilation of a million plus christians in Armenia, so who was going to be bothered by knocking off a few million or so Jews?

Sancho - Member

Can the UK cope with say 10,000 or even 5,000

The numbers you are listing are equivalent to two to three weeks welcoming influx. You need to up that number many folds I am afraid.

We havent taken many from Syria.

Plenty of rooms left so all welcome. The more the merrier.

I have no faith in our politicians, or civil service, so lets say we agreed to take 2,000.

Errmm ... 2,000? 😯 You are kidding right? If you say 20% of their population then that might sound more realistic.

how are these handled?
would we build a camp?
use hotels?
social housing? (is there any spare?)

What? We got plenty of houses here? You know those £1 house say somewhere up North ... we can build an entire new community there with their own culture etc. With that we can be truly cosmopolitan and a multicultural society.

I am doubtful we could organise a lot of drinking in a place that makes alcoholic drinks, so anyone know how it might work

I am afraid you have to comply and to be understanding of others cultures. Drink coffee and tea!

😛

edit:

Sancho - Member

I think we will house and feed some chewkw, but I dont feel the general public mood is very welcoming.
sympathetic yes.

I am now truly a turkey looking forward to Xmas.

THe irony is that asylum seekers who do make it to the Promised Land of UK will probably end up dumped in some DSS dosshole in a failing seaside resort like Blackpool, no further inland than the day they first set foot on the island.

globalti - Member

THe irony is that asylum seekers who do make it to the Promised Land of UK will probably end up dumped in some DSS dosshole in a failing seaside resort like Blackpool, no further inland than the day they first set foot on the island.

How dare you not create jobs for them? Are you going to let them go hungry? No, you need to feed them. You need to let them settle down first so you need to provide housing, feed them, look after them, provide education to them (got to be Uni level), provide all the creature comforts, then teach them to find jobs and then perhaps prepare some jobs for them.

We are generous and we have plenty to go around ... everyone chip in.

ninfan - Member

In the longer term, how do we discourage a constant tide of economic migrants if they see their compatriots being looked after in Europe?

If I've got the numbers right, 1600 have died so far this year making the crossing, almost 1/20th of all those who've attempted it. If that doesn't discourage them, then they're pretty undiscouragable.

But also, these are motivated dudes... Someone who'll risk a 5% chance of death to come to the UK is going to get stuff done once they arrive. If we let them. More likely we'll stop them from working legally then complain that they're a drain on the public purse.

doesnt help the debate any, but this has been going on for a long time

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Hitler's "final solution" was apparently based on the fact no one bothered about the annihilation of a million plus christians in Armenia, so who was going to be bothered by knocking off a few million or so Jews?

Hitler was also quite impressed with British rule in India and used it as it an argument for the feasibility of the subjugation of Eastern Europe and Russia :

[i][b] A handful of Englishmen, Hitler said more than once, had been able to rule millions in India; surely the Germans could do the same in Eastern Europe.[/i][/b]

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/feb/06/why-obsessed-nazis-third-reich

How dare you not create jobs for them

we did, but the bloody Poles and Romanians filled them all 😀

ninfan - Member

In the longer term, how do we discourage a constant tide of economic migrants if they see their compatriots being looked after in Europe?

In the longer term they settle here because they have nothing much to return to if their entire family is here.

ninfan - Member

How dare you not create jobs for them

we did, but the bloody Poles and Romanians filled them all

You did not. They work for private companies/farms etc ...

You need to create govt jobs for them otherwise you are just degrading another beings.

Northwind - Member
If I've got the numbers right, 1600 have died so far this year making the crossing, almost 1/20th of all those who've attempted it. If that doesn't discourage them, then they're pretty undiscouragable.

Well, if your head is going to be chopped off would you take the chance of a boat ride? Undiscroragable? 😆 I think it's a gamble that is highly winnable.

But also, these are motivated dudes... Someone who'll risk a 5% chance of death to come to the UK is going to get stuff done once they arrive. If we let them. More likely we'll stop them from working legally then complain that they're a drain on the public purse.

No, what public purse? We are loaded.

In all seriousness, one of the big problems seems to have been that rather than claim asylum at the point of entry (as the law states) the Italian solution to their arrival seems to have been to stick them on the first bus to the French and German borders...

ninfan - Member
In all seriousness, one of the big problems seems to have been that rather than claim asylum at the point of entry (as the law states) the Italian solution to their arrival seems to have been to stick them on the first bus to the French and German borders...

Nahhh ... an easy way will be to ask then entire EU nations to absorb percentage of the influx. Once that is done the Italian will welcome the influx with open arms then bill the EU for the inconveniences.

Blackpool might be a dump*, but unless you're on some stag do you can at least go to bed at night safe in the knowledge that you'll wake up in the morning.

*Often described as a hell hole unless you're from Tripoli, Mogadishu or Aleppo

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One issue is that the boats are now traveling a relatively short distance from the African coast before calling for rescue. There is no real attempt to make it to Europe, everyone is well aware that the boats are not capable of making the passage. The actual patrol area (shown in blue) is quite far from where these sinkings are occuring.

scuttler - Member

Blackpool might be a dump*, but unless you're on some stag do you can at least go to bed at night safe in the knowledge that you'll wake up in the morning.

*Often described as a hell hole unless you're from Tripoli, Mogadishu or Aleppo

Ya, but what jobs do you intend to give them? Donkey ride on the beach?

jambalaya - Member

One issue is that the boats are now traveling a relatively short distance from the African coast before calling for rescue. There is no real attempt to make it to Europe, everyone is well aware that the boats are not capable of making the passage. The actual patrol area (shown in blue) is quite far from where these sinkings are occuring.

That's the idea to deliberately asked for rescue because they know you cannot let them die. You Must rescue them.

The influx is in the 100'000's as its so dangerous to get here. If we start welcoming/facilitating the migration it will become a million plus quite quickly IMO

jambalaya - Member

The influx is in the 100'000's as its so dangerous to get here. If we start welcoming/facilitating the migration it will become a million plus quite quickly IMO

Noooo you don't say ... how can that be? We have plenty of rooms here and plenty to share ... nooo ... cannot be.

Let's have at least 20% of their population.

@chew - we are on the same side of this argument. International law of the sea is you must respond to a distress call unless to do so would put you in danger.

jambalaya - Member

@chew - we are on the same side of this argument. International law of the sea is you must respond to a distress call unless to do so would put you in danger.

In that case they need the Italian cruise ship captain on board ... what's his name?

The question is can we create a buffer zones in North Africa?

No idea what the solution is - we can't leave them to die, we can't cope with all who will want to come in the next however many years. And it's going to get worse - anti-migrant labour attacks reported in South Africa recently, the whole continent, and the Middle East, are a huge ticking demographic time bomb.

The Chinafication of Africa may help...China is building up infrastructure and influence right across Africa, not hard to see Africa becoming part of a Chinese empire. The potential for solar energy investment across North Africa means it could become the energy farm for Europe. There is potential for Africa, but I can't see the west being able or willing to help it along.

There are some chilling parallels with what is happening now and a docu-drama I watched about 10 years ago (Europe on the brink, I think).

It started with huge immigration to Europe from the African continent, leading to a mediterrean wall due to rising nationalism if I remember correctly. Fossil fuel instability/increases, an inward turning fading America and a more aggressive Russia.

It didn't end well.

This has been happening for decades.

Sticking my neck out here. Landing in Italy and the Mafia isnt anywhere to do with this?........

Channel 4 reported that 1,000 arriving everyday. 😯

Landing in Italy and the Mafia isnt anywhere to do with this?........

Daresay the Vatican will want in on the action if that's the case...

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Plenty of empty beds in Poland and Romania surely?

ctk - Member
Plenty of empty beds in Poland and Romania surely?

Let's have 3 billion of the world population in EU after all you should welcome everyone.

There are people in S.America, Africa, Middle East and Asian continents who want to be here too so you better Not discriminate against them.

Please feed all of them and try not to blame other countries beyond EU.

🙄

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32446673 ]Tackle tabloid 'hate speech', UN commissioner urges UK[/url]

[b][i]This vicious verbal assault on migrants and asylum seekers in the UK tabloid press has continued unchallenged under the law for far too long," he said.

"I am an unswerving advocate of freedom of expression, which is guaranteed under Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, but it is not absolute.

"Article 20 of the same covenant says 'any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law'."

In a press release containing Mr Hussein's comments, the UN said the article followed "decades of sustained and unrestrained anti-foreigner abuse, misinformation and distortion".

It said the use of word "cockroaches" in Ms Hopkins' column was "very similar" to that employed by Rwanda's Kangura newspaper and Radio Mille Collines during the run up to the 1994 genocide, as well as in the Nazi media. [/i][/b]