[Closed] Middle lane hogs and tailgaiting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22770064

Nice idea, who's going to enforce it?

I don't do a lot of motorway driving anymore but when I do, what do I see? Middle lane hogs? Yup, lots. Tailgating? Yup, even more. Mobile phone use? Yes, though less on the motorway than around town I reckon. Polis to issue these tickets? Two fifths of bugger all.

Unless there's another way they're going to surveil the driving?

good nwws but they should also add the lost art of INDICATING!!! (Unless they have)

Ahhh, indicating. Yes that is a dying art.

You can tell what sort of state indicating is in by passing a lorry. Indicating to signal your intentions, then the lorry flashing you as you haven't indicated [b]after[/b] commencing the manoeuvre.

as nobody ever got stopped or taken to court why will it change? Back in the 90's I saw motorway cops all the time, when I left the UK last year I could go a week or 2 on the M6/60/62 and see none.

If the middle lane hogs move over then there is no need to tailgate

Tailgating? A nice firm dab on the brakes usually gets them to drop back a few car lengths. Love the look on their faces when they eventually pass.

I like the idea in theory, but not sure how they will enforce it.

I like the idea in theory, but not sure how they will enforce it.

It'll go down well with the Top Gear demographic. Can't see how it'll be enforced either.

Sounds like a good plan and about time this happened. Hopefully there will be more police on the road to enforce things.

Nice to see at last that the emphasis of road policing is becoming less focused on the soft target that is 'speeding' and more focused on the actual safety and quality of peoples driving.

Let's hope the police/council put as much effort in to catch these people as they have with their war on the speeding motorist.

obelix - Member
Tailgating? A nice firm dab on the brakes usually gets them to drop back a few car lengths. Love the look on their faces when they eventually pass.

oh like this you mean? 😆
NSFW!

obelix - Member

Tailgating? A nice firm dab on the brakes usually gets them to drop back a few car lengths. Love the look on their faces when they eventually pass

I think there is a case for fines without penalty points for this kind of minor offence.

Like for speeding, where in the UK, you get around 10mph leeway on speed cameras (in a 30), In Germany you get a smaller amount of leeway, then just a 20euro fine with no points, just to let you know you have been caught and to be more careful in future.

If the middle lane hogs move over then there is no need to tailgate

Lovely logic: "Hey you're driving badly, so I'm going to drive really badly and dangerously to teach you a lesson"

Tailgating? A nice firm dab on the brakes usually gets them to drop back a few car lengths.

Back to OP: nice idea, I support it, but how can it be enforced when the police can't even enforce the speed limit?

retro, It's better done when your not the only car on the m'way in the outside lane 😉

It's perfectly reasonable to increase the gap between you and the car in front if you feel you need more room to slow down due to the impatient arse behind.

I tend to use the washers first as suggested by a defensive driving course to suggest you might be too close - also works on tailgaiting motorbikes.

For general reference the stopping distance in the highway code is about double what most people think by the look of the roads these days.

retro83 - Member
oh like this you mean?
NSFW!

Love it!

Its good news and I hope it means more people move over left but I suspect it will largely remain the same.

Tailgating is largely due to either impatience OR the fact somebody hasnt moved left when they should. This pushes some drivers to undertake... which, if they have the space to do, then just shows the driver in front had the space to move left.

Trouble is, the legal definition of tailgating will probably cover about 50% of drivers on the M25/42/62 in daylight hours.

I suspect any enforcement will be done in a similar fashion to speeding in the motorway. At the discretion of the Police based (hopefully) on just how much of an idiot the driver is being.

That guy in the red Toyota Corolla I see on the way to Edinburgh airport between Kelty and Rosyth will hopefully get sone attention.

Doubt it, admittedly.

I think there is a case for fines without penalty points for this kind of minor offence.

That depends on which offence you are referring to. Threatening someone with over a tons weight of a vehicle at 70mph by trying to move them out of the way through intimidation is not a minor offence IMO. Of course, if everyone moved over to the far left of the motorway, then there wouldn't be any need for tail gating.

The Police don't have enough presence on the roads either for this to be effective. I often witness drivers who are breaking the speed limit, slow down to a more acceptable speed when they can see a Police motorway patrol car up ahead.

This is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of sloppy driving and disregard for others on the road IMO.

And they will use what resource to enforce this exactly?

I applaud the fact that they finally seem to have publically acknowledged speeding is not the only road safety issue but the police cant deal with that widely enough even with the assistance of all the cameras.

I have an idea how you could police this and mobile phone use quite easily.

Tailgaters are a pet hate as i often have my young kids in the car. More vulnerable than adults and first in line to get hit by some selfish **** who doesnt grasp the idea that the gap in front of me is there so i dont kill or maim someone AND to make traffic flow better. If you have to brake when a vehicle travelling at a similar speed to you pulls out you are more than likely too close to the car in front. The gap should be big enough that someone can pull out into it safely.

We should just give police guns. Then they can hammer down the motorway at a ton twenty to surprise people. if they see someone tailgating or middle lane hogging they can shoot a couple of windows out thus costing them the same as a fine and putting the squirts up chummy to the bargain. No delay in judgement and they can be back at the station in time for elevenses.

There is no way this suggestion can go wrong.

Lack of indicating probably winds me up most as it requires so little effort. In my car it means lifting your finger about 5 millimetre to indicate right, and dropping your finger about 5 millimetre to indicate left.

I do wonder how people who find that effort too much manage to muster enough energy to turn their steering wheels when required.

A while back I saw the inevitable, a car in the inside lane moving into the middle lane without indicating, whilst simultaneously a car in the outside lane also moved into the middle lane without indicating, lots of frantic swerving at the last minute was required to avoid a collision.

Arm the police, why stop there
[img] [/img]

Although not having a naff design for the Lawmaster would be needed.

I think there are way more serious offences to which the Police should be dedicating their time.

Failure to indicate on roundabouts would be on my list, but everything comes a poor second to the constant misuse of the possessive apostrophe I see all around me. If that was punishable by death people would soon learn !

Tailgating, hmm. And how are they actually going to define it?

What is too close and at what speed?

And that split-second when you come to overtake on an A-road, often you are very close - does that count?

My wife says I drive too close, but she's the one who's twice run into other cars, whereas I (in +30 years of driving) never have - so its less about distance and more about the driver.

,',:;-"',

Sorry, I mean "roundabout's".

yesterday I saw a car do a last minute no indicator turn off- crossing over the hashed box to do so at an mway on ramp that was backed up,
when I saw a police car do exactly the same a few car lengths back I chuckled thinking the copper was gonna nab them, nope he just drove on, didnt wanna sit in traffic either

this will never be enforced

What is too close and at what speed?

If you need to ask you probably shouldn't be driving.

Cameras on gantries. With a big flashing "AB63CDE You Are Tailgating/Middle Lane Hogging".

Lots of folk just don't realise they're doing it.

I seldom drive on motorways in Scotland, maybe once a year I drive down to France and the standard of driving to get there is awful. Even late at night with almost nothing on the roads there are still twerps sitting in the middle lane.

Driving on French motorways is a pure pleasure. Speeds are a lot higher and with good lane discipline it's a whole lot safer.

Fine and give them points, as it's dangerous driving their insurance premiums should rise too.

There is a god after all. 👿

Lane hogging should have a clearly stated rule/law against it. That's the first obvious step. It could be enforced by cameras in high accident areas.

It will take years to filter through peoples consciousness, but that doesn't make it a wrong thing to do, it just means we won't get an immediate benefit.

Sometimes it just takes time to change society's behaviour, and this is certainly apparent on the roads. When I left school in the mid 80's, drink driving seemed quite common in the older generation, now virtually everyone sees it as being quite abhorrent. That change didn't happen overnight, it took 20 years to become significant.

Every time there is a driving/roads type thread, most seem to only consider what will change between today and tomorrow, not where will we be in a generations time (especially when discussing cycle lanes). It's no wonder politicians are forced into short termism, when that's all the voters are capable of.

mcmoonter - Member

I seldom drive on motorways in Scotland, maybe once a year I drive down to France and the standard of driving to get there is awful. Even late at night with almost nothing on the roads there are still twerps sitting in the middle lane.

Driving on French motorways is a pure pleasure. Speeds are a lot higher and with good lane discipline it's a whole lot safer.

It's really strange. You drive back through France towards the tunnel, everything is fine, people staying in the correct lane, overtaking, moving back. Then as soon as they're back in Angleterre, it's straight back in the middle lane where they then remain for the duration. MOVE OVER YOU HELMET

Still not sure about the whole fines thing though, it just seems to indicate that you can buy your way out of shit driving.

Mobile phone use, I'd smash the phone at the side of the road, right in front of them. All their pictures, files, contacts, smashed into bits.
If they're caught again within a year, impound the car for a month.

The inconvenience of that is more effective than the loss of £100.

As above though, it's going to take another 10 years to change the perception of mobile phone use and the whole process still relies on enforcement - actually having some police out there on the roads to deal with it.

[i]It will take years to filter through peoples consciousness[/i]

Nah. It'll NEVER get into the head of most of them. Because THEY DON'T KNOW THEY ARE DOING IT.

Whilst middle lane hogging can be blatant (empty road, sat there for miles), there is also a grey area. If you are overtaking slower traffic in the left hand lane there can be that awkward distance between two vehicles that can be difficult to judge when you should indicate and move left or stay out to overtake the next vehicle. What that distance is comes from experience and takes into account the speed difference, the volume of traffic, if there is a junction coming up and so on and could be wrongly judged or indeed two people could have different interpretations. I hope this is enforced with some common sense - unlike speed which is evidence based this could be more subtle. Get a police bod in a bad mood.....

Will this include wagons overtaking another wagon and hogging the middle lane for two or three miles while they do it?

Nah. It'll NEVER get into the head of most of them. Because THEY DON'T KNOW THEY ARE DOING IT.

See that's exactly the attitude I was referring to 🙂

Will this include wagons overtaking another wagon and hogging the middle lane for two or three miles while they do it?

Yes, the classic "my speed limiter is in real life 0.01km/h faster than your speed limiter so I'm going to crawl past you over the next 5 miles" scenario. Just as disruptive to traffic flow as middle lane hogging cars imo.

Still not sure about the whole fines thing though, it just seems to indicate that you can buy your way out of shit driving.

Except that a phone can be bought, as can taxi rides, so you can sort of buy your way out of that as well.

Capital punishment is the only way.

In seriousness, think it's a fine idea, would love to know how the police (I assume) are going to have time to enforce it. I agree however that the fact is, the general population will start to use get the idea and hopefully standards will improve. Worked with seatbelts, drink driving, child seats. All unenforceable, yet now are just done.
Speeding is the hard one as the one thing speeding is, that the others really aren't, is good fun (before I'm shot, I don't think anyone will say in their heart of hearts that going fast isn't fun, whether it's advisable and safe, or should be done in a car at all is a different question)

Think many of the CLOC members are just in a daze, and haven't even realised they're doing it. Often been on the autobahn at 140km/h, remaining in lane 2 passing mostly trucks, and eventually catch up with someone doing 100-120 in lane 2 well past the last truck they passed, chatting away with other occupants, and running on hypnotic autopilot.

Also annoying are what I call "dippers". Those who pass a vehicle and pull straight in front of them, and instantly indicate and pull straight back out to pass the next vehicle. Presumably dipping back into lane 1 just trying to prove they're not CLOC? or just idiots.

They have the tailgating law in Germany. I was led to believe it was about €200+ fine. You should see the tailgating here. Totally unenforceable law.

Will this include wagons overtaking another wagon and hogging the middle lane for two or three miles while they do it?

Aren't there also trials of no lorry overtaking in some areas?

Sorry, I'm a realist!

See that's exactly the attitude I was referring to

MSP has it - attitudes do change given enough time. I was in a transfer coach coming back from holiday in Turkey last weekend and the driver was constantly on his phone. Not illegal in Turkey but the British passengers was all getting very twitchy about him not concentrating until the rep was instructed to get him to stop it. Yet I bet 10 years ago the same people would have been happy to use the phone whilst driving themselves but are now conditioned to think it's bad.

They have the tailgating law in Germany. I was led to believe it was about €200+ fine. You should see the tailgating here. Totally unenforceable law.

They also have a lane discipline law, which does seem to work to a certain extent, which I think is enforced by cameras.

I could go a week or 2 on the M6/60/62 and see none.

I see between 1 and 4 every morning. (Police vehicles)

The recognition that's a problem can only be deemed as positive imo. The fines, well why not?

then just a 20euro fine with no points, just to let you know you have been caught and to be more careful in future.

And that's exactly why proper driving isn't enforced, you should already know what the rules are, that's why you passed a test. This constant degredation of the seriousness of driving poorly makes things worse, it says don't worry will all do it really (and we do, me included). IMO fines should be significantly higher (to help pay for the enforecement, polluter pays type principle and to act as a true deterent) and points more rigourously enforced, 12 pts and you're off the road, no excuses.

Nearly 2000 deaths a year and no one takes it seriously, but heaven help us if someone slips walking up to an electrical cabinet on the side of the motorway and there's no staircase and hand rail, it's about time we got our priorities sorted.

They have the tailgating law in Germany. I was led to believe it was about €200+ fine. You should see the tailgating here. Totally unenforceable law.

I thought there were cameras that measured the gap relative to the speed. Either that or my German friend is telling porkies, as he claims to have received rather a large fine for it as he was caught by them as he was approaching a car he was about to overtake.

then just a 20euro fine with no points, just to let you know you have been caught and to be more careful in future.

To be fair, the only time I've been caught speeding was on a (almost - there turned out to be a copper hiding behind a sand due) deserted road in Tassie, where I received a stern talking to, and the fine/points suspended for three years. I can ho0nestly say it did actually have an effect on me, and I rarely speed any more, even on actually deserted roads in the middle of the middle of nowhere.

So a light touch (with the appropriate perpetrator) can be an effective deterrant

Driving on French motorways is a pure pleasure. Speeds are a lot higher and with good lane discipline it's a whole lot safer.

There must be another France that I am yet to discover!

patriotpro - Member
I could go a week or 2 on the M6/60/62 and see none.
I see between 1 and 4 every morning. (Police vehicles)

That's because you're a policeman silly 🙂

Driving while chatting on a mobile has been illegal for what, 10 years? Yet, almost every time I drive, I see people doing this. How on earth will the bobbies enforce their new powers when they can't quite manage their old ones yet?

<edit> and French peage is a pleasure to behold (mostly). Try averaging 80mph on a British road without driving like a complete moron.

Despite all this lauding of the French the last quote of that article by the guy from Road Safety Analysis Research Group suggests that GB's motorways are potentially the safest in Europe?

You can tell what sort of state indicating is in by passing a lorry. Indicating to signal your intentions, then the lorry flashing you as you haven't indicated after commencing the manoeuvre.

I think the flash actually means "you're clear to pull in".

What actually winds me up is a lorry sticking their indicator on when I'm alongside, which leads me to think that the driver hasn't seen me.

ernie

[i]If you need to ask you probably shouldn't be driving. [/i]

Ok, you define it then. The point I'm making is that unless they do define it then it's unenforceable with the exception of been handed a fine and believing it's cheaper just to pay then argue (which for most of us it is) in court.

And it depends what you are driving too, as following someone when you are sat higher (m/c, van, lorry etc) you've a better view vs sat low in a sportscar.

Edric 64 - Member
If the middle lane hogs move over then there is no need to tailgate

I was tailgated this morning by a dick in a brand new Golf, while I was in the outside lane overtaking several lorries (2 lane stretch of carriageway) with a line of cars in front of me as far as the eye could see. He was weaving left and right, getting really close before dropping back a bit and then zooming back up to my car. Perhaps he didn't like the fact that there was clear air between me and the car in front....?
It's an average speed camera stretch too and the outside lane was all doing 70 anyway, so he was never going to make much progress once he got past me.
I pulled over to let him past and he zoomed up to the next car and proceeded to do the same.

When I pulled off about 5 miles further up the road from where this all started he was still in the outside lane about 2 car lengths ahead of me so all that braking, accelerating, weaving and generally being a knob had gained him about 8 metres in 5 miles.

And it depends what you are driving too, as following someone when you are sat higher (m/c, van, lorry etc) you've a better view vs sat low in a sportscar.

And probably a longer stopping distance (van/lorry) which means you should be even further back. 😉

Does that bit of the M1 still exist with the chevrons on it to indicate (2 of them) the distance that should be between cars? Always thought that was a good bit of educational road marking we need more of as it was normally a lot further than most people (inc me) kept between cars. Education as well as big stick seems a more sensible method to change behaviour.

@ br
The IAM guy interviewed on the beeb this morning said "a 2 second gap"

I thought there were cameras that measured the gap relative to the speed. Either that or my German friend is telling porkies, as he claims to have received rather a large fine for it as he was caught by them as he was approaching a car he was about to overtake.

edit: and all cameras are front-facing too, so get a motorbike 😉

edit2: shed loads of cameras in Austria, and they just put in a whole load of new ones. And it feels really wrong sticking to a 100km/h limit for emissions reduction, after 4 hours on the German autobahn. Doesn't stop the Russian Cayenne owners fast-laning it on an empty road at 160+.

"Road Safety Minister Stephen Hammond said: "Careless drivers are a menace and their negligence puts innocent people's lives at risk."" Surely if it's putting other people's lives at risk it's dangerous driving and not just careless.

Interesting to see motorists actively APPROVING of new laws and fines.

Where are the usual [i]"War On Motorists"[/i] lot?

Perhaps all today's soundbites should be kept and played back to them in five years when they are complaining that these fines are just a "revenue raiser" or "stealth tax". 😀

I'd be interested to know if these laws will apply on other roads with other vehicles, given that cyclists often get dangerously tailgated by impatient aggressive motorists?

While lane discipline in France is pretty good they tailgate like maniacs.

Its interesting that coverage of this announcement in the media seems to be focussing on middle lane drivers. Shows where the medial think people frustrations lie

I'd be interested to know if these laws will apply on other roads with other vehicles, given that cyclists often get dangerously tailgated by impatient aggressive motorists?

But of course we'll want to preserve our right to tailgate another vehicles (other bikes in a group ride) and blame everyone else if in doing so we don't see a hazard ahead 😉

[url= http://www.****/news/article-2283266/Anger-death-crash-cyclist-killed-pothole.html ]Death due to Pothole on group ride[/url]

Cameras on gantries. With a big flashing "AB63CDE You Are Tailgating/Middle Lane Hogging".

This is good.

In the future, every vehicle will be monitored remotely, and they will be able to talk to you in your car. "CF13 ABC stop being a dick, drop back ffs"

richmtb - Member
While lane discipline in France is pretty good they tailgate like maniacs.

Cause and effect (well really effect and cause). Because the lane discipline is better, they react very badly to knobby Brits wobbling along in the outside lane day dreaming for all they're worth.

I've no doubt the road death rate is probably higher in France than the UK, it still remains largely a nicer place to drive long distance. It can be a pain though, choose your travel time badly and the Route Solais is a bastarde on 01/08 or try driving to a ski resort when Brit and French school holidays coincide....

There must be another France that I am yet to discover!

+1

French drivers are as or more rude, aggressive and crap as UK drivers.

What is needed isn't new laws but more traffic police. Many traffic depts have been cut as traffic crimes are not usually measured targets.

A work colleague who was an appalling driver - speeding,tailgating, and texting - was cured after she got 6 pts within a week when she was caught speeding and using a handheld phone in separate incidents.

Given neither charge involved a camera but just real police enforcing the law she was very unlucky. The realisation that she was now one more unlucky week away from a ban worked wonders.

More traffic police and short bans after three crimes rather than the usual four under the current system would help.

Yeah tricky one that convert. I guess the difference is that a cyclist (generally) drafts another cyclist with their permission. Also in that situation it is the "tailgater" who is in the greatest danger.

[i]The IAM guy interviewed on the beeb this morning said "a 2 second gap" [/i]

Ok, and if its raining and/or poor road surface?

Its next to impossible to define, except when the person behind actually hits the vehicle in front - then it was too close.

I am well aware of what is safe or not, having been a motorcyclist for +30 years its the only way I've stayed alive.

But for me its just more waffle.

Because the land discipline is better, they react very badly to knobby Brits wobbling along in the outside lane day dreaming for all they're worth.

They tend to react very badly to Brits who move out legitimately to overtake slower drivers as well.
The roads IME are better the driving is IME worse. The reduced population spread over a greater area mean driving is better but get near a conurbation and tends to be more chaotic than the UK

surfer - Member
There must be another France that I am yet to discover!
+1

French drivers are as or more rude, aggressive and crap as UK drivers.

I think it depends where you drive. Paris=London and M25=Peripherique.

On the long peage runs to the south, the driving and discipline is generally very good (unlike the M1etc). IME of course.

The realisation that she was now one more unlucky week away from [s]a ban worked wonders.[/s] having to go to court to plead hardship and carry on driving.

FTFY. 🙁

http://road.cc/content/news/44102-courts-let-nearly-half-motorists-who-accrue-12-or-more-penalty-points-continue
http://road.cc/content/news/81904-more-8000-drivers-have-12-or-more-points-their-licence-and-are-still-allowed

I suspect this law just makes it easier from a legal point of view to catch tailgaters. If you have to make a case for dangerous driving, that's open to argument. If you have an explicit law then it's much easier to prove someone's guilt.

The French might have good lane discipline but they are shocking for what I call "French Formation Driving". It's kind of like synchronised swimming, looks nice but ultimately pointless.

They sit in a line of 5-6 cars all doing about 90mph all about 2 metres from each others bumper. I guess they do it to save on the gas ? For the mental challenge ?

I think it depends where you drive. Paris=London and M25=Peripherique.

Yes. French péage autoroutes are great, and easy to drive on. Everything else is a bit different to the UK, probably somewhat less safe too.

French towns are a special joy, a certain amount of care required in the general insanity when they are busy, not to mention the crazy Priorité a la Droite rule.

And Paris is a complete rule to itself. Things like the Arc de Triomphe, where traffic coming onto the roundabout has right of way, there are about 6 lanes of traffic but no lane markings and everyone still drives at full pelt, being in the traffic in Paris is quite an experience! The other thing about Paris is that because it's small and the outskirts are mostly well dodgy, you're far more likely as a visitor to be driving in the busiest (central) bits, whereas in London, you'd be an idiot to drive anywhere near places like Hyde Park Corner, and most people don't.

The fines need to be raised to a level whereby it's self-financing. £100 is nowhere near enough. Let's start by adding a zero on to the end of that and we might see a change of behaviour.

As said before - unenforcable.

They can't do mobile phones.

Will there also be the "It wasn't me driving the car that morning" defence?

Quick question - how much time/money has been spent lobbying/passing these new laws through Parliament when the Police/CPS are being stripped right back to the bone?

[quote=jimster ]
Will there also be the "It wasn't me driving the car that morning" defence?
I was assuming you'd have to be stopped by a patrol car and therefore this "defence" wouldn't work.