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@nickc On the other hand, once his hand was forced on PFF, he lined up Bennett to command it?
There's a certain argument that says that he wasn't a great strategist - if he'd kept on at the Ruhr rather than switching to bombing Berlin, he'd have had a more decisive effect. And he wasn't great at follow up - the Germans apparently couldn't understand why the RAF didn't come back to have a go at the dam repair work with conventional bombs (incidentally, Operation Chastise was a month before the 100th BG's first operation).
Agree with Klunk, some harrowing bits - stuck in ball turret for example . I also wonder in real life too how none of the gunners hit their compatriots planes with all that adrenaline and speed of movement.
I might watch the 4th….
I also wonder in real life too how none of the gunners hit their compatriots planes with all that adrenaline and speed of movement.
there's some footage of a b24 taken out by bomb dropped on it from above, wrong place wrong time!
Yeah, that felt a bit more impactful - did a decent job of conveying the horror of fighting in that environment and the consequences of command balls-up.
Just the one episode for me, rank rotten.
Enjoy folks!
There's quite a few things higher on the list to watch than this. Not sure if I'll get to it.
Just came in to ask if anyone spotted Matt Jones in the hangar bike race scene?
I'm quite invested in this so far, FWIW when my father was evacuated during WW2, he ended up somewhere in East Anglia near a bomber airfield. He talked about the B-17s coming back late in the evening returning from missions and trying to land trailing smoke, often with bits missing and sometimes on fire. Your wee belly-gunner guy in a dying Flying Fortress who couldn't be freed from his claustrophobically tiny self-contained turret in time must've been a reality for the men who flew these things.
The mortality rate of aircrew engaged in strategic bombing during WW2 is mind boggling.
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
BY RANDALL JARRELL
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
Grim.
I've seen some stats for relative casualties of the various crew positions on a B17, the ball turret gunner was one of the safest from flak, forced as he was into a compact position with a fair bit of protection from armour and his machine guns. The waist gunners were most exposed.
Of course if the aircraft is downed he's in one of the hardest places to escape from, and he has to retrieve his parachute from the aircraft because he won't fit into the turret with it on. The escape rate from a crashing B17 was still over twice that of the Lancaster which would be in the dark and with the notorious wing spar to negotiate for most of its crew.
While I'm sure that's a very interesting video, I'm not listening to 9 minutes of that voice. Clif notes?
On the other hand, once his hand was forced on PFF, he lined up Bennett to command it?
My understanding of the formation of the pathfinders was that most of the discussion/arguments took place at the Group level (below Harris) and that Roderick Carr (4 group) was the proposer and supporter of Bennett, who had a bit of a reputation as being a "vocal enthusiast" for the theory (ironically copied from the Luftwaffe) I don't think Harris thought much of Bennett in turn, but left it to the Group leaders to make the decision to allow it to form squadrons and test the theory. Harris thought that taking away the best crews from squadrons would lead to elitism (partly true) and would be bad for moral (not so much)
The book The Pathfinders by Will Iredale is a good overview if you're interested.
the Germans apparently couldn’t understand why the RAF didn’t come back to have a go at the dam repair work with conventional bombs
It was hard enough to bomb them with very very well trained crews and specialist weapons. By the time they were repairing them the Germans diverted a huge amount of anti-aircraft guns to locations like this all around Germany, ironically taking them away from more likely targets, making a return visit not only prohibitively dangerous but also a bit pointless (no water in the reservoirs, which was half the weapon, after all) . And with the labour to repair the Dams coming from workers on the Atlantic walls defences, the knock-on effects of just that one raid, meant that not only were other targets less heavily defended but D-Day was made easier because of the lack of construction.
a lot of survivor bias.... most planes came back with flak damage 84% but not much 30 and 20 mm cannon damage. As James Stewart said "the fighter was the bogeyman" your plane wasn't coming home if you were hit by the big calibre rounds. Not that much self inflicted and friendly fire overall... escort fighters didn't go into the formations as the bomber gunners shot at anything pointing at them. Friendly fire was a problem for b29 nightime fire bomb raids so much so they took their ammo away 😕
Friendly fire was a problem for b29 nightime fire bomb raids so much so they took their ammo away 😕
Japanese night fighter threat was pretty minimal though?
Episode 3 picked things up a bit! Thats more like it and I'm feeling a bit more hopeful now.
It's a fantastic story, done in a worthy and plodding way by people who think they are remaking Band of Brothers.
Swing and a miss.
We Have Ways podcast, however...
Last night's Ep was dull as **** and seemed to forgo a plot and script and instead rely on series of war-film cliches. I'll give it one more episode I reckon.
I agree, last night was dull.
I don't really care who is going to live or die.
I'm trying really hard to like it. Started BoB again to offset the disappointment.
Switched off after 20mins, metaphorically and physically.
Yeah. It looks great, but how have they made it so tedious 🤔 quite an achievement considering the subject!!
Did I misinterpret, or did they kill a couple of the main characters off-screen with a bit of a shrug? Or are they going to turn up alive?
Did I misinterpret, or did they kill a couple of the main characters off-screen with a bit of a shrug? Or are they going to turn up alive?
I imagine they're going to have more SERE/captured sub-plots along with the bombing missions.
But it's definitely lacking some spice, but then it was never going to be as crunchy or as varied like the ground combat in Pacific or BoB from a cinematic perspective.
Did I misinterpret, or did they kill a couple of the main characters off-screen with a bit of a shrug? Or are they going to turn up alive?
You can search for the main characters on Wikipedia etc. Some of them survived the war, some didn't.
One of the problems s that once their flying you can't see their faces.
It really helps if you can see their faces to get some attachment to the characters.
James Cameron spent a fortune on specialist custom diving helmets for The Abyss for that very reason.
Klunk
Free MemberFriendly fire was a problem for b29 nightime fire bomb raids so much so they took their ammo away 😕
Yep but that was mostly because they were facing far less effective attacks, and also because the B29's remote control turrets were so unreliable.
Watched the 4 episodes so far. It does feel like there's something a bit lacking, like it's a bit empty.
Maybe they should've put in a Currahee equivalent episode, show them in training a bit, show why the bomb site is so important, build them up a bit so we care a bit more? Contrast cocky inexperience against the terror of the first real mission a bit more?
Plus the CGI is a bit rubbish!
I might have to watch Memphis belle again too see how I feel about that now!
Well i've watched all that's available so far and i'm quite enjoying it, but not getting the same engrossed feeling i perhaps should be. I'm not sure if it's the way it's being told, or the script, but it's lacking a certain depth and tension. I quite liked the Regensberg/Schweinfurt raid portrayal, in that it showed how epic and exposed a mission it was. But I also agree the CGI battles don't seem quite right at points, but they did try to show how the sky was littered with bits of plane and people in Ep.4, and that is something mentioned in witness testimony in the book. It's crazy to think how much material would have rained down form above, all the bits of planes, parachutes, bodies, shrapnel from flak. A grim reality.
Aside from the historical accuracy with battles, there's also the everyday reality to convey, and it has a reasonable stab at it with scenes in East Anglia and London, and Egan facing the sharp end of their day job by seeing the aftermath of Nazi bombing in London. I'm a bit sceptical of land girls stooking hay next to the hardstands, and locals running about. I'd have expected some sense of airfield security, and not sure if wheat was grown on an operational airfield, but I don't honestly know, it just felt too much like a concocted compound of historical elements...
I'm going to keep watching and I can feel myself getting more invested in the series.
Did I misinterpret, or did they kill a couple of the main characters off-screen with a bit of a shrug? Or are they going to turn up alive?
Think i read that there'll be some of the tuskegee pilots as well in this series, so sounds like they may have episodes involving stalag luft iii.
Anyway, not watched since episode 2, will wait for it all and watch it then, it was hard to get in to, i think there's not the same feel for BoB or the pacific, as others say, it was immersive as they were stuck there, whereas with this, they are doing their runs, then back at base and partying or whatever, so loses the tension pretty much most of the time. It's a shame though, as this was the most dangerous theatre, but probably the hardest to put into film.
As others have said, not engaging with this as much, i think it is for the same reason i don't like Zwift, feels like i am inside a computer game half the time.
But will keep watching, read the source book, and also re-read James Holland's Big Week book, as well as the accompanying We Have Ways podcasts which have been brilliant with some heartbreaking stats as to the survival rates and stories of those in the series.
blimey 2 more agent Carter clones
I don’t know what that means?
I’m watching this series as it comes out and I have no idea if I like it or not. It’s no BoB but it’s bedding in slowly. I want to know what happens next so I guess that’s a good thing.
But my worry is that it’s taken 6 episodes to get to this stage and they only have 4 left to finish and I can’t see how they do that. How have they run out of time when they have 10 hours to tell a story?
It seems like we still have a whole Great Escape thread to develop as well as completing the bombing war and introducing several new crews/pals/points of view.
And aren’t there still other folk on the run in France?
they only have 4 left
Think there's only 3 actually 😬
How many series though?
How many series though?
My thoughts exactly. Not going to wrap this up in a few episodes, most likely a cliffhanger to prime us for season 2?
I said it earlier but a BoB Arnhem series (multiples) would be epic. Cover from the air and the ground all the way up to the extraction.
And there's still the Tuskegee Airman story-line that they want to show horn-in at some point.
I don't think there is a 2nd series?
This one took 10 years and cost millions.
This one took 10 years
Eh? Development was started in 2013, but HBO decided to shelve it, Apple picked it up and agreed a deal in 2019, filming started 2021 but due to COVID delayed it.
So not beyond the realm of possibility that further series could follow.
Not sure what's happening but I do have any tools showing so can't post a link?
Anyway we will know soon enough, if Episode 9 goes to Spring 1945, that's the end of the story.
I listened to the we have ways podcast with the writer and he said one of the hardest parts was condensing the story into only 9 episodes, he didn't give the impression there was any plans for another series.I also think they mentioned that after D Day the Luftwaffe had been so depleted that the losses were greatly reduced and I think the program will focus on mostly on the earlier part of the American bombing campaign when losses were higher.
I wasn't too impressed with the Brit bashing but Al Murray pointed out that's consistent with what the Americans thought at the time so it's at least accurate in that way .
Personal trivia alert: My father - himself of immediate German heritage - told me once that he was playing in the street, when he and his friends saw a bloke in a blue uniform descending under a parachute land nearby. He spoke good English, he asked the kids to fetch a policeman while he waited, rolled a Luftwaffe cigarette and said "now you know what a German airman looks like".
My father went on to serve in the RAF - naturally his first posting was Germany, where he was given leave to meet and befriend his German relatives. Dad worked with radio and radar, apparently the RAF NCO who instructed him was a Pole, who'd been present at the liberation of Belsen. The story goes that everyone from the surrounding villages was marched to the camp and made to bear witness. This Polish RAF guy was apparently amongst the first RAF personnel who landed in Berlin just after the Nazis capitulated. He told my Dad about the level of devastation wrought upon the city being visible across miles.
My father had cousins, who were conscripted into the Luftwaffe and who ended up being killed at Stalingrad. My father's uncle Rudi refused to open the door to his "English" family apparently.
There's also no amount of money on Earth that could persuade me to climb aboard even a perfectly functional B-17.
when he and his friends saw a bloke in a blue uniform descending under a parachute land nearby. He spoke good English, he asked the kids to fetch a policeman while he waited, rolled a Luftwaffe cigarette and said “now you know what a German airman looks like”
Reading this reminded me of a BBC children's program from my youth (I would have been 11). Me, my brother and our mates were all into exploring/making dens/firing catapults etc, this program was basically the same but set in WW2 only the kids found a machine gun and ended up capturing a German pilot. Anyone else remember it?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0258359/
Anyone else remember it?
It was based on a book by Robert Westall.
It was 1st book I ever read in a day. Absolutely loved it. The book is way better than the TV series and misses loads out.
There was a sequel "Fathom Five".
He also did loads of other "young adult" fiction, including The Watch Tower which was also made into a TV series by the BBC.
Did a lot of ghost stories too.