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Fun fact, a company near me made the leather flying jackets used in the film. Aero Leather in Galashiels are about the only company in the world that can make truly authentic WW2 jackets. They have the original tailoring templates, use leather from the correct breeds and manufacture using traditional techniques.
The salient question Frank, after seeing those prices, is can you get a discount? 😉
The defying physics aspect of it aside, I find the problem with CGI in movies and TV shows is no matter how good it is, it still looks like CGI and it just feels like watching a cut scene in a game, or a Pixar movie.
That being said I've been looking forward to this for a long time and will be signing up to apple!
Fun fact: It’s a Wonderful Life was James Stewart’s first film after his service in a squadron based in England (with great distinction).
Additional fun fact, he was based at Hethel which is now the Lotus Factory and test track. My great-grandfather was a foreman during the construction.
One of the big advantages for Lotus was not just the runway making a test track but that the Hangars being designed for huge bombers meant few internal columns getting in the way of installing a production line.
Not sure if any of you listen to the great We have way of making you talk podcast, but they interview the writer on there:
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/masters-of-the-air/id1457552694?i=1000642849103
They discuss how of the 36 crews that arrived in Norfolk of the "Bloody 100th" - 34 of those crews had been shot down by Mid 1943, and that in one night they lost 15 places, 150 crew, of the equivalent of losing the whole of BoB's Easy Company in one night.
I suppose for me, now living in Norfolk for the last 10 years, a lot of this history has surrounded me, a lot of my bike rides often cut across country on old airfields, i can think of 15-16 airfields within 30 minute ride. My wife's uncle has an old canadian air base on his farm, nothing touched in the Nissan huts since WW2, it still has graffiti in the loos, beer bottles on the ground, the bar, the dart board etc in there, and it is just encased in brambles.
I listened to that too. The costume lady stopped counting after she'd measured up 3000 people. Another interesting fact was the one about how big the bombing raids were. Three hours from the first plane to the last.
Another interesting fact was the one about how big the bombing raids were. Three hours from the first plane to the last.
You can see why they didn't refer to them as formations or the like, but "bomber streams".
They used to form up around really brightly coloured Lead Assembly Ships, with some crazy paint schemes:
https://www.classicwarbirds.co.uk/articles/lead-assembly-ships-of-the-eighth-air-force.php
Lead assembly ship from Hethel:
Also green & yellow and assembled at Hethel:
Rather impressed with it thus far. I do wish Arnhem would get this treatment, got so much potential with the richness of stories.
Anyhoo, will be impatiently waiting for Ep3.
I often ride through @52.5023997,-0.5880101,1332m/data=!3m1!1e3?authuser=0&entry=ttu">here, it's quite "ghostly"
You can see why they didn’t refer to them as formations or the like, but “bomber streams”.
[Nerd alert] Bomber streams were the tactics devised by the RAF to send their 'heavies' out singularly along a route corridor that allowed planes to space themselves laterally and vertically, the thinking being that individual planes (at night) would be harder targets to find than a whole bunch of B-17s in a 'box formation' in daylight. Once the Germans worked out the target though, it wasn't any harder to find lone Lancasters than it was to find a massive bunch of B-17s [/Nerd alert]
What's everyone's thoughts after a couple of Eps? Personally I'm finding it a bit derivative. The Aaron Copeland-esque musical score (every war film that Tom Hanks get involved with seemingly) doesn't help, and the somewhat corny dialogue and scenes - Here they are on a mission, oh it's much worse than they imagined. Here they are fighting with the RAF. Here they are listening to a big band and larking about...It needs to get much better to keep me watching.
My understanding of the bomber stream idea is that the Germans used ground controllers to guide their night fighters onto the targets. By streaming all the bombers through one narrow corridor, it limited the number of ground controllers and hence the number of night fighters available.
I think the series is fairly mediocre. Band of Brothers was good because it was based on the memoirs of Captain Winters and followed them through training up to the end of the war so you could see the characters grow and evolve. MOTA just seems to have skipped all the character development and goes for cutesy spectacular stuff. I'll keep watching it, but it's pretty average. Pity, it could have been really good if they'd hired a better scriptwriter.
and hence the number of night fighters available.
Sort of, The Germans used a system that divided the night-sky into sectors, once they worked out where the bombers were going, it was easy enough for each sector controller to hand over the information the next in line, then all the fighters had to do was stooge about waiting for the bomber to show up. Window (chaff) disrupted the radar used by Germans that the sector control system broke down eventually, so the Luftwaffe used 'wilde sau' night fighters with on-board radar and experienced pilots to intercept them.
It's just a hobby, I can stop at any time....
followed them through training up to the end of the war
the statistical chances for a USAAF heavy Bomber crew in Europe to be lost on a mission were 1-in-10.
Band of Brothers was good because it was based on the memoirs of Captain Winters
I thought it was based on interviews with several veterans, not just Winters?
Slightly underwhelmed. So far, so "Memphis Belle". Which is a shame, as I was really looking forward to this.
Not that theres anything wrong with "Memphis Belle", a decent wee film.
I thought it was based on interviews with several veterans, not just Winters?
Yup, various members of Easy company contributed to the book.
franciscobegbie
Free Member
Slightly underwhelmed. So far, so “Memphis Belle”. Which is a shame, as I was really looking forward to this.
Not that theres anything wrong with “Memphis Belle”, a decent wee film.
Thats a bit of a shame. The trailer looked very Memphis Belle, but I figured that was just because any WW2 B-17 programme would look a like that at first
I thought it was based on interviews with several veterans, not just Winters?
Based on the book of the same name, by Stephen Ambrose, who talked to quite a few of the veterans involved.
Is this series based on something similar, or are the characters fictional composites? I'm not sure why they'd call the two leads 'Buck' and 'Bucky' if they weren't real people, given that it's hard enough to tell them apart as it is.
the statistical chances...
I think one has to be wary of that sort of startling statistics. It may have been true for maybe a time in '44, although overall The official USAAF history was something like 334,000 sorties and 5500 losses, so a roughly 1-60 chance (between Nov '43 and the end of the war) Still; dangerous work to be sure.
Is this series based on something similar, or are the characters fictional composites?
No, they're all real people (well, the major characters are) the difference is that many of them weren't interviewed or published memoirs Don't forget that BoB was written in the late 80's-early 90's when these guys were mostly still kicking about and still had their marbles, and the writers of the TV series could phone them up and ask them stuff. It's partly why Major Sobel was portrayed like that, as he was dead (suicide) and couldn't really tell his side of the story.
The book Master of the Air wasn't published until 2021, although this series is based on a few other memoirs and histories
Slightly underwhelmed. <br /><br />
After the first two, me as well and seems slightly formulaic, talk about stuff, get drunk, fly a mission, talk about stuff, the end. I’m going to watch episode 3’s apparat flight to Africa and see if I can sustain the series.
Its not Band of Brothers by a long chalk IMHO.
Is this series based on something similar, or are the characters fictional composites?
According to Wikipedia it's based on a book called Masters of the Air: America's Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany by Donald L. Miller, who is a history professor, and they are real historical characters. No idea what the book's like, but the scriptwriter didn't do a great job of adapting it IMO.
It’s partly why Major Sobel was portrayed like that, as he was dead (suicide) and couldn’t really tell his side of the story.
TBF, Sobel doesn't come across badly in the original Ambrose book. The series makes him look like a bumbling idiot whereas the book makes it clear that, despite his many faults, Sobel was ultimately respected by the men and they credit him for making the Company what it was.
I'm sure that's what probably happened though, but yeah it's not like BoB where they're advancing into different areas and constantly facing different threats - those who make it home will always be relatively safe until the next mission. I'm enjoying it but it certainly hasn't yet grabbed my attention like BoB did. Even though they've managed to portray the danger/intensity/chaos of the missions quite well (the flak, frostbite, not knowing where the hell they are!!) it still seems a little detached unlike the [I]extremely[/I] visceral nature of BoB (and even moreso The Pacific). Will keep watching tho, production values v good & it's not going to be a massive investment of time!After the first two, me as well and seems slightly formulaic, talk about stuff, get drunk, fly a mission, talk about stuff, the end.
the statistical chances for a USAAF heavy Bomber crew in Europe to be lost on a mission were 1-in-10.
There was a puff piece in the Guardian about the series and terrible losses etc. While I’m not belittling the dangers, this kind of overlooks RAF Bomber Command, whose losses were appalling, exceeded only by merchant seamen and the U-Bootwaffe; the chances of completing a 30-trip tour was about 1:4 and worse eg. winter 1943-44
Also for all the talk from the Americans about precision bombing, there’s little practical or ethical difference between area bombing at night and blind bombing through cloud with primitive radar by day.
According to Wikipedia it’s based on a book called Masters of the Air: America’s Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany by Donald L. Miller, who is a history professor, and they are real historical characters. No idea what the book’s like, but the scriptwriter didn’t do a great job of adapting it IMO.
Available in your local Tesco. (Well, it was in my local Tesco yesterday...)
although if you actually watch the series in the [I]very first episode[/I] they make a point of not releasing any bombs (dumping them in the channel instead on the way home) specifically because they cannot see thru the cloud (and despite having incurred heavy losses to make a fruitless run).Also for all the talk from the Americans about precision bombing, there’s little practical or ethical difference between area bombing at night and blind bombing through cloud
they make a point of not releasing any bombs (dumping them in the channel instead on the way home) specifically because they cannot see thru the cloud
Yeah, in 1943 they may be doing that, they very soon just ploughed on regardless and started just throwing them out when they were 'more or less in the right place' - the same as the RAF.. There was a report that showed (about 1943ish) that bombing accuracy was pretty poor had precisely zero effect. As the folks in charge. Prof Lindemann, Portal, Harris* were already very aware of what the actual purpose of indiscriminate bombing Germany was all about.
*People are quick to label Harris the war criminal, I'm pretty sure he'd be chuffed to find out that his own bosses, who understood perfectly well what was going on, set out the terms of Area Bombing, and could have, at any point, ordered him to stop had they felt a twinge of compassion, have got away blame free...
So far I am enjoying it, it's not BoB, which i think remains one of my favourite series ever, but I am hoping it will ramp up once they get away from setting back story a bit and launch more into the sorties.
For those comments above about the blanket area bombing, there is a great documentary called "Lancaster"
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12384428/
That goes into it and has some great footage in it
ordered him to stop
You know there was another person that could of made it stop overnight.
But he didn't.
Despite everything being lost by the end of 1943.
I think it’s the first show (at least that I can remember/ have seen) that has accurately shown the mess a shell or flak makes of an aircraft. <br /><br />
Generally thought the show was good, not especially invested in characters by the end of ep2. Will probably still watch it…
Slightly underwhelmed.
yeah. We bailed some way through ep 2. 5* reviews and liking band of brothers had me looking forward to it, but sadly nope.
It's not just the static plot, puff piece doc 'and now we see the valuable work of the ground crew' take on things, dull characters, 'made some time in the 50s' war film feel, and the notion we're watching speilberg and hanks' big train set... In fact it's mainly not that, it's mainly that I've got used to shows that have a bit of critical distance from what they're showing, that show things from different perspectives or with competing narratives, where what characters think isn't necessarily what they then say... This has some great actors and production values, but just feels wooden and one dimensional. The documentary bits could be done in 5 mins, and the air sequences get a bit 'seen one, seen 'em all' (and we are watching on a big OLED).
Hey ho, it's only telly. If not for the reviews or I'd have gone 'not for me' 10 mins in.
There was a report that showed (about 1943ish) that bombing accuracy was pretty poor had precisely zero effect.
I thought it was mid-1942; it did have some effect eg. PFF, better routing, being more explicit that ‘de-housing’ the German workforce was the main aim, even if that’s not what the 23yos who had to take off into the dusk and do it were told.
Max Hastings’ book is good on this, and makes the point that Harris should really have gone after D-day, and eg. a concerted campaign against oil installations (which he consistently refused to do) would probably have worked.
Signed up for Apple last night.
Episode 1 was OK but I'm a little disappointed. Have no interest in the characters.
Much preferred Criminal Record.
Regarding the Allied Bombing Campaign, in 1944-45, the Germans were 40-45% of their TOTAL industrial resources, defending against it. Every 88, every shell, all the steel, concrete, fuel and aircraft that were used for air defence, was not used on the Eastern or Western fronts.
I’ve enjoyed it, but it certainly isn’t 10/10 stuff so far.
Most of the stellar reviews have been based on the full series. There is a review on avforums that isn’t as enthusiastic and they only had access to the 1st two episodes.
Hopefully it will improve, worth sticking with it I feel.
Can't see beyond Saltburns waving willy and Elvis. Uh huh.
Only watched one episode so far, and did enjoy it, and will watch the whole series before coming to a final judgement. No, it's not BoB. I think there is a decent amount to like, but some of the criticism so far is fair. The characters and dialogue are OK so far, but I think it's missing real tension. Maybe this will build through the episodes and carnage. Maybe the hardest bit for the series is that it's focus is perhaps too broad, and the viewer is overwhelmed by a cacophony of action/horror/drama, and it blunts all the individual extraordinary stories...?
Just a point of order - the book was published in 2007, but it was re-published with the current changed title. The book is very worthwhile, and goes into great detail across many aspects, and there's absolutely no shortage of potential drama and horror. Some of the missions attempted almost defy belief. The African scenes come from trialling shuttle bombing. Also tested in Russian territory later on.
PFF
Don't forget, Harris was very much against the pathfinders; until it worked. He was very much against "panacea-mongering" which is what he considered things like the the Dams raid, and most special targets with giant bombs that folks proclaimed as "war ending". I think he was very much in favour of relentless bombing the shit out of anything that moved; civilians or military, it didn't much matter to him. I think his his opinion was very much "They can put a stop to this anytime they want" Much like his counter part in the USAAF, Le May.
Ive enjoyed it so far, loved Band of Brothers and re watched it twice at least. Pacific I’ve enjoyed it had big shows to fill but was also a very different conflict, I’ve read about how veterans for Europe and the Pacific even acknowledged how different the wars was for them and I think the Pacific captures this in the viewing.
Im uncertain about this so far but would watch another few so I suppose it’s a success then!!