MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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I get the impression that most people on here despite thinking that his force was not particularly excessive, loathe the man and are politically much more in tune with the protester
This
I will rather enjoy it if this destroys his career, but the idea that what happened and the circumstances in which it happened was assault and that the justice systems time should be wasted by such triviality is frankly ridiculous.
@scotroutes sorry dude! I'm sure there is stream of porn that would fit the bill though.
Would have been funny if he'd got dropped by her though. Would make this whole conversation very different.
If you are physically stronger than someone else, you have a responsibility to ensure that you do not use that advantage against them.
I'm going to have to play devils advocate here because I fundamentally agree with the kernel of your point, but; he's a middle aged bloke, a bit overweight, probably knows more Jim's than Gym's. If we're going to play the "she's a woman and therefore isn't a threat card" then I think it's fair to point out he's more Stalone in Creed than Stalone in Rocky 1.
I will rather enjoy it if this destroys his career, but the idea that what happened and the circumstances in which it happened was assault and that the justice systems time should be wasted by such triviality is frankly ridiculous.
Yet many others do think it's assault. Perhaps you could explain why they're wrong.
Some people think farage copping a milkshake is assault.& some people think grabbing an unarmed woman (security would not have let her in if she was armed) isn't. What a f*&cked world we live in 😡
Not sure what I find more offensive..the way she was unnecessarily manhandled by the MP, the way some are reacting on here like she deserved it, or the smug riposte delivered afterwards by Hammond where he crows about signing up to some spurious set of guidelines which may or may not be introduced decades from now when this government has done sweet FA to mitigate climate change
The protesters are right. This is the ONLY game in town and the quicker people get there heads round it the quicker we can try and head off the worst of whats to come
If I’m honest what I really would have liked is if she was a BJJ practitioner and flipped him like a pancake, got him in a rear naked choke and made him tap out like a bitch…
Or turned the situation and spun him round, grabbed him by the back of the neck and sat him back in his chair before carrying on as she was. Just to show aggression and violence aren’t the answer.
I think he lost his shit and went in too aggressively, maybe alcohol involved. Shouldn’t have done what he did to anyone, man or woman. I think she knew what she was getting herself into and was prepared for this kind of thing so she handled it well, didn’t try and escalate the situation. Nothing really to see here.
Edit: I’ll clarify that last point. This needs to be looked at by the law to determine if punishment is needed. The media circus now rolling into town is out of proportion. I will feel uneasy if he is not charged when the milkshake artillery are.
Farage being milkshaked is assault as is this. It's very clear and simple in law.
It's a good job Donald Trump wasn't there.
Where would he have grabbed her?
If we’re going to play the “she’s a woman and therefore isn’t a threat card” then I think it’s fair to point out he’s more Stalone in Creed than Stalone in Rocky 1.
I didn't say that.
And I've never seen Rocky,so don't understand your analogy. 🙂
@bsims that too! Which, if individuals growing desire to get combative isn't tempered with some restraint could happen.
Like many have said, you can argue either way if it was justified, but if it was a bloke I find it doubtful he would have had a punt.
As Greenpeace are professional protestors and objectors I would imagine they're pretty well versed in how to reduce the likelyhood physical confrontation through reasonable and peaceful means.
He’s been suspended.
If the government think it’s serious to suspend a Tory then something’s up.
He'll be quietly reinstated the next time there is a close vote happening.
Some people think farage copping a milkshake is assault.& some people think grabbing an unarmed woman (security would not have let her in if she was armed) isn’t.
Pro-establishment types can't bear the idea of any challenge to power and authority, which is why those doing the challenging are always treated more harshly. From Orgreave all the back through the enclosures and the peasants' revolt. Here's a poem from the 18th or 19th century:
The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose.
@ransos or they change the rules to allow themselves to have their noses in the trough.
How very dare the common folk think we're equals!
He hasn't been suspended from party or as an MP just from his ministerial role, no doubt until the dust settles, he will still be voting along party lines in the house.
You seem sure that a crime wasn’t committed. Why?
You aren't legally allowed to use force to remove a trespasser, even if you've repeatedly asked them to leave. But that all changes if you believe the trespasser represents a threat. If the woman had remained at the back of the room to make her protest then any grabbing and throwing out by Field would probably be assault.
But she didn't she was walking in how I'd describe as an assertive manner towards another part of the room, presumably towards the speaker. Fields assertion that he felt she could be a threat of some sort isn't completely unreasonable. If he maintains that defence it's unlikely that charges will be brought or if they are result in conviction. Especially as in the great scheme of things he wasn't unduly violent. Politically though it's not good for him, most people (myself included) will feel he just acted out of anger. I can see his suspension ending in him being fired from his job but no more than that.
Not sure what I find more offensive..the way she was unnecessarily manhandled by the MP, the way some are reacting on here like she deserved it
I agree 100% with this comment. I have just read through the thread at the start of lunch and I am appalled by some of the comments and views on display here. We middle aged men have a long way to come yet.
But that all changes if you believe the trespasser represents a threat.
Only if that belief is held to be reasonable, otherwise every single case would result in acquittal, surely. So I guess we need to consider if "walking assertively" towards somewhere else meets that test.
How many times do I have to repeat myself, the law for use of force, lethal or otherwise is no different for a police officer than a civilian. They are not “authorised” to use force, they don’t carry a license to kill, training is done simply to protect the person at the pointy end of the use of force and the police officer legally....as in trying to equip them with the tools so they don’t get done.
If you work somewhere like a secure mental health facility and grabbed a violent service user by the neck you would be prosecuted and barred from working in such a place ever again.
The law is there to protect everyone, equally
No it’s not. If you have been trained in restraint techniques or the use of force, then you are held to those standards. If not, you are held to what the CPS or a jury consider what a reasonable person under the circumstances may have thought or done. Not being trained how to restrain someone will factor into their judgement of how he carried it out.
I agree 100% with this comment. I have just read through the thread at the start of lunch and I am appalled by some of the comments and views on display here. We middle aged men have a long way to come yet.
Agreed. I've been here a while and recognise a couple of long standing posters who used to come across as pretty decent guys, however in this thread they show themselves to be quite bitter, angry little men. Looking at you muffin.
I’d have given her a kick up the arse to finish off as she went out the door.
#internet_hardman
Apparently Field has previous in voicing anger over climate protest. He should have been on some sort of watch list. What were his community leaders thinking about, not flagging him up to the authorities?
Only if that belief is held to be reasonable, otherwise every single case would result in acquittal, surely. So I guess we need to consider if “walking assertively” towards somewhere else meets that test
It can also be used in the prevention of a crime, eg public order. It’s not like a spate of politicians have been stalked, assaulted, milkshaked or murdered recently though is it?
But she didn’t she was walking in how I’d describe as an assertive manner towards another part of the room, presumably towards the speaker.
Was she? So why did Field feel threatened and now the dozens of others in the room particularly those sat in the same row as Field?
I'd say that as no one else seen her as a threat then neither did he.
Report from another diner who was actually there. ...
https://twitter.com/peston/status/1141836184492158977?s=21
Hammond where he crows about signing up to some spurious set of guidelines which may or may not be introduced decades from now when this government has done sweet FA to mitigate climate change
Exactly and this is what should come out of it and why the protests are necessary. Well done for aiming to do something by 2050 when we know f'all will be done until 2049 when panic starts about some policy we said we would do next year.
@Drac, doesn't really work like that. It will do with professionals trained to the same standard, not with civilians.
Perception of threat is based on a whole load of variables which differ from person to person. Formal training creates a baseline which you don't have with regular Joe's.
Or he could just be a bully boy arsehole.
I’d say that as no one else seen her as a threat then neither did he
You should know better than anyone here that those people could have felt threatened, but were suffering from bystander effect. Again, the fact that you are the kind of person who runs towards injured people and dangerous situations Drac, biases you and sets you apart from most of the people in that room.
Besides that, random political pundits wouldn’t be targets - it would be the MPs.
No it’s not. If you have been trained in restraint techniques or the use of force, then you are held to those standards.
Yep, you're right. Apologies.
Report from another diner who was actually there
Erm..
"I wasn’t there, so I can’t say she didn’t pose a risk, but it looks heavy handed."
I think that it says a lot about our current bunch of Hunts we have in charge, that they are tougher on a lady protesting climate change, than they are on climate change itself....
It can also be used in the prevention of a crime, eg public order.
So it would come back to whether it was reasonable to believe that she was about to commit a crime?
Again, the fact that you are the kind of person who runs towards injured people and dangerous situations Drac, biases you and sets you apart from most of the people in that room.
Do I **** run towards dangerous situations.
My bad, thought you were or had been a paramedic drac! If you are, well i’d consider attending to an injured or ill individual where the mechanism of injury or illness is unknown as potentially dangerous.
My bad, thought you were or had been a paramedic drac!
I am.
See edit above. You will still do thing in a calm manner that would make others panic.
You”re different in that regard whether you like me pointing that out or not.
You should know better than anyone here that those people could have felt threatened, but were suffering from bystander effect.
I don't think the bystander effect really applies in reaction to a threat. There was no reaction because she wasn't a threat.
Even *checks notes* Piers Morgan *checks notes again* yes, Piers Morgan can see that it is wholly wrong.
https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1141996818533888000
I don’t think the bystander effect really applies in reaction to a threat. There was no reaction because she wasn’t a threat
First sentence, of course it does.
Second sentence, you may or may not be right. I don’t feel that I am in a position to comment on that.
See edit above. You will still do thing in a calm manner that would make others panic.
You”re different in that regard whether you like me pointing that out or not.
If you mean I have more experience and training in identify threatening behaviour then yes. She wasn't a threat as perceived by everyone else she walked past.
To all those arguing whether or not he grabbed her by the neck / shoulder or whatever and not her neck, I'd say this:
So what?
A fairly hefty bloke suddenly leaps out of his chair and launches himself in the vicinity of a young woman's neck, then pins her up against a pillar, does that suddenly make it OK because he doesn't then throttle the life out of her? She must've been bloody terrified. I would've been. It looks to me an awful lot like he was ready to lamp her and then thought better of it.
Then after rough-housing her for a few moments he frog-marches her out of the room with his hand on the back of her neck like she's some street urchin, the main thing that leaps out at me here is the contempt, the complete absence of respect. He's so much better than she is you see; bloody commoners coming in here disrupting the event, and a woman at that, who does she think she is? Don't you know who I am?
It's easy to see why he did it. They'd been there a while making a pain in the arse of themselves, he's sat there simmering and then when she walked past he finally lost his rag.
Is it "reasonable force?" Simply, is there another way he could've dealt with it? Could he not simply have calmly stood up, gone "alright love, that's enough" and stood in her way? If he really felt she needed physically from the building, does she not have arms?
Whilst I've little sympathy for people being intentionally bloody annoying, his reaction was completely disproportionate. If chucking a salted caramel milkshake at someone is deemed as assault then that sure as hell must be. Arrogant, self-important bully boy, I hope they throw the book at him and I hope it's a hardback.
If you are physically stronger than someone else, you have a responsibility to ensure that you do not use that advantage against them unnecessarily.
Unless you’re taking part in a strong man competition, then you have a responsibility to ensure you do use it against them 😉
Back on track, the guy is a dick and the woman probably knew that there was a risk of this sort of thing happening.
If you mean I have more experience and training in identify threatening behaviour then yes. She wasn’t a threat as perceived by everyone else she walked past.
That’s up to the police and CPS to deduce through witness statements.
You can’t tell by looking at people who aren’t used to threatening behaviour.
You have never seen footage of knives being pulled out and witnesses just standing around like dozy idiots barely aware of the implications of what that knife might mean - for them all to scarper as soon as one person bolts?
First sentence, of course it does.
Well, this is off of Wikipedia, but I think it's a broadly accurate summary -
[i]"The bystander effect, or bystander apathy, is a social psychological phenomenon in which individuals are less likely to offer help to a victim when other people are present"[/i]
I think if there's a threat, any delay in reaction is more over an uncertainty what to do - I've never looked but I'm sure if you look at videos from, say, the Bataclan attack or or an earthquake or a fire or something, when lots of people are in the presence of an open threat, there is a reaction. Bystander apathy is a different thing.
It,s still based on the same psychological mechanism, whereby people are looking for the reactions of others to judge how they should appropriately respond.
Too slow, page fault.
To all those arguing whether or not he grabbed her by the neck / shoulder or whatever and not her neck, I’d say this:
So what?
It's bad enough for what it actually is without exaggerating and making up things for the sake of sensationalism. That's what. Forgive me if I try and hold reporting of news to a decent standard.
Erm..
“I wasn’t there, so I can’t say she didn’t pose a risk, but it looks heavy handed.”
Keep reading ...
It,s still based on the same psychological mechanism, whereby people are looking for the reactions of others to judge how they should appropriately respond.
In Field's case it was the opposite to every other individual present at the event.
This thread has given the forum a big kick up the arse
Maybe, but then again, without individuals willing to be the first to take action, we’d have all been eaten by sabre tooth cats before we stopped running around on all fours like gollum.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/are-bystanders-to-blame-for-terrorism/blockquote >
What a bizarre link to post - it talks about apathy in terms of reporting suspicions about premeditation of an attack, which is unrelated to this discussion. It does, however, reinforce my understanding of what bystander apathy actually is. From that page: [i]The bystander effect refers to the phenomenon that an individual’s likelihood of helping decreases when passive bystanders are present in a critical situation. [/i]
It can also be used in the prevention of a crime, eg public order. It’s not like a spate of politicians have been stalked, assaulted, milkshakes or murdered recently though is it?
It's an interesting point and while I take what you're saying on-board, we do have the moment where he spotted her and decided she was a "potential threat" recorded. To me it looks like an angry use of force because he's spotted a lefty in a cheap new look dress, holding a mobile and tiny clutch bag (the attire and implements of terrorist the world over?) and knows she's aiming to get to the podium to grab some attention for a cause he doesn't much care for...
His ruddy faced frog marching and forceful handling of her don't endear him, but on balance I'm really not sure if it quite meets the measure of an "assault", yes he is forceful but he's removing someone from a private event which they weren't meant to be at, he doesn't "grab her throat" that I can see, but does clearly get a bit handy, I'm not sure I could ever behave like that towards a woman but I'm the product of my own upbringing...
He certainly wasn't heroically trying to prevent a terror attack or something, she was one of several protesters at the event, all wearing red dresses apparently, so he knew who/what he was seeing. It's a weak defence, she was clearly going for the podium, if she was there to physically harm to the attendees, she'd already marched past a couple of hundred opportunities...
She wasn’t a threat as perceived by everyone else she walked past.
She was walking past the others, but towards Field who was last man in line before the top table. The pillar caused a narrowing, logically it fell to him to act if acting was necessary. It doesn't really matter if others didn't perceive a threat only that he sincerely felt there was one. Look at police officers shooting unarmed members of the public, the same rule applies. The woman wasn't hurt (as far as we know) Take politics out of it and it's a non event.
I'd sat by, quietly seething and frankly appalled at some of the responses on here and what they thought was appropriate, regardless of gender, but not saying anything as I was pleased to see what appeared to be a majority of decent human beings. Then, all of a difference, I find myself agreeing with Piers. ****ing. Morgan. I don't even know where I am in the world any more.
But then I read it again and the undercurrents of his views creep in, and I realised that I only agree with the binary assessment of the bully's behaviour, and not any of the underlying themes.
I've been on a pro brexit page on fb. 90% of the brexiteers think manhandling a woman's OK. Shows the kind of people that voted brexit 😡. Adding mysogeny to racism, & xenophobia?? God help British women post brexit 😞 Us remainiacs will have a job on our hands protecting women from the gullibles 🙄
Take politics out of it and it’s a none event.
On the contrary. Take politics out and it’s a large person assaulting a small person. There are laws about that sort of situation. If politics hadn’t been involved the large person would already have been arrested.
I’m really not sure if it quite meets the measure of an “assault”
From Wikipedia:
Assault (or common assault) is committed if one intentionally or recklessly causes another person to apprehend immediate and unlawful personal violence. Violence in this context means any unlawful touching, though there is some debate over whether the touching must also be hostile.
From the CPS:
An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force.
...
An element of the offence of common assault is lack of consent
The bar for "common assault" seems to be quite low, if he'd done any damage it quickly falls into other more serious charges (assault with ABH, etc).
It,s still based on the same psychological mechanism, whereby people are looking for the reactions of others to judge how they should appropriately respond.
So once Field made the move the others should have all joined in shouting "bundle" ?
All I saw was they all remained seating juts looking at him.
Take politics out and it’s a large person assaulting a small person. There are laws about that sort of situation.
There is indeed, and some people are just putting their opinion over about how the law might look at this particular case. I'm trying to do that without any political bias which is far more than can be said of some other posters.
She was walking past the others, but towards Field who was last man in line before the top table. The pillar caused a narrowing, logically it fell to him to act if acting was necessary. It doesn’t really matter if others didn’t perceive a threat only that he sincerely felt there was one. Look at police officers shooting unarmed members of the public, the same rule applies. The woman wasn’t hurt (as far as we know) Take politics out of it and it’s a non event.
Quite right. It's just a shame that Field wasn't armed, hey? Could've popped a cap in her ass and gone back to his caviar and Moet without any of that fuss.
Even if he did perceive a threat - and I don't for a moment believe that - it was by any measure a disproportionate response. He could've simply stood up to stop her passing. That wasn't the reaction of someone trying to block someone else's passage, it was the reaction of someone who was angry.
In any case - she wasn't hurt, so everything's OK and his behaviour was perfectly acceptable? She probably won't sleep for a fortnight, but as we know those aren't real injuries.
There is indeed, and some people are just putting their opinion over about how the law might look at this particular case. I’m trying to do that without any political bias which is far more than can be said of some other posters.
Taxi25, on this and the SIcK thread you are coming across as trying to be reasonable and open to interpretations of events.
Christ man, don’t you know where you’re posting?
Get angry chap.
Not to say I agree with your views of course. And I feel a bit grumbly about your attitude despite you’re right to have it. 🤔
it was the reaction of someone who was angry.
Of course he was angry. That was a Taylor's 1963 he was enjoying before he was so rudely interrupted.
Quite right. It’s just a shame that Field wasn’t armed, hey? Could’ve popped a cap in her ass and gone back to his caviar and Moet without any of that fuss.
I’m confused, are you suggesting that that is what taxi25 either thinks or is suggesting would be reasonable?
Protestors dress up to gain entry to a private function where they intend to disrupt that event. They shouldn’t have been there and had no right to be there.
Was he a bit heavy handed? With hindsight yes, but a senior member of the government was there. Just because she’s white, female in a posh dress doesn’t mean she couldn’t be a threat.
Cougar has nailed it; it’s a common assault.
Common assault does not even need anyone to lay hands on the other - it’s merely a requirement that that a persons “apprehended immediate unlawful personal violence”.
If Mark Field was to use the S3 Criminal Law Act defence of preventing crime or effecting or assisting the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders he must also need to demonstrate that his use of force was “reasonable in the circumstances.”
A Police Officer would be particularly examined on this and would likely fall back to his/her use of force continuum:
Officer presence & tactical communication etc.
In this case it could be argued that a reasonable use of force would be to ask her to stop. To appeal to her, engage in some sort of dialogue... spell it out what she is doing is not allowed and so on. I would also think that a reasonable response would also be to stand up & bar her way (without laying hands on) & telling her she does not have permission to go past or be here. All of this is considered reasonable - to jump up and roughly grab hold (wherever) and March her out cannot be seen to be reasonable IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
Well put Cougar.
Some other posters on here need to take a long hard look at themselves...
From the lady in question:
"350 people were there and only one person reacted that way. "
"It's more the behaviour of that individual. I want him to reflect on what he did and not do it again. Maybe he should go to anger management classes."
And yes, that she is a female of smaller stature in evening dress with few places to conceal a weapon would be considered in this. The Police refers to this has “impact factors”.
Everything from body language, physical size shape, specialist knowledge (martial arts etc) are all examined/considered in making a decision to use force or what level of force to use. For example, an OAP ambling towards you with a carving knife vs a MMA fighter with a vegetable peeler. Both represent a potential lethal force but the way you would deal with them would be very different, based on impact factors.
it was by any measure a disproportionate response. He could’ve simply stood up to stop her passing. That wasn’t the reaction of someone trying to block someone else’s passage, it was the reaction of someone who was angry.
I agree with you, and have said I believe he acted in anger. Doesn't mean the law will will feel he's committed a crime though. Not if he persists with the threat defence.
I'm sure we'll find out sooner or later though.
Why does the BBC footage have a female expressing a "Jeez" at the sight of events (4 seconds in), but the ITV footage doesn't have; they both appear to have been taken by the same camera...or do I need to take off my tinfoil hat?
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1141826667960078337
For example, an OAP ambling towards you with a carving knife vs a MMA fighter with a vegetable peeler. Both represent a potential lethal force
Roundhouse gran take her knife and throw it ninja style at Mr Roids.
Protestors dress up to gain entry to a private function where they intend to disrupt that event. They shouldn’t have been there and had no right to be there.
That's a point in itself actually. How were they even in there? It's slightly worrying that joe public can just wander in to a private room containing (presumably) most of our government. If they were a threat this might have wound up being a very different story indeed.
Roundhouse gran take her knife and throw it ninja style at Mr Roids.
I believe Roundhouse Gran and Mr Roids is coming soon to SyFy.
Mr Roids
Homer?
Roundhouse gran take her knife and throw it ninja style
A practitioner of Nanjutsu presumably.
I may be accused of being an internet hard man here, but if you were in that situation, and saw that woman walking towards you, and genuinely thought she was a threat, then you are a total pussy that needs to man up. As I've said before if it had been a real threat he's have been cowering under the table awaiting security to arrive.
He didn't do it as he felt threatened, he did it because he knew he could and because he is an angry little bully.
The world is full of people like that, it's just a shame that parliament appears to be as well.
Well done that lady. Good point well made. And Field helped her make it. The world needs a few more billion with that lady's convictions and few less of Field and and his palls turning the planet into an inhospitable greenhoused wasteland.
A practitioner of Nanjutsu presumably.
Granmaster
Just because she’s white, female in a posh dress doesn’t mean she couldn’t be a threat.
That's very open-ended - on that basis, anyone in the room could be a threat. But other than being in a place where she wasn't welcome, there were no threatening behaviours exhibited.