I find no guilt associated with being privileged. I am white, intelligent, had good upbringing and have been relatively successful (monetarily). At no point in my life have I ever had to put much effort in to get to where I am.
I am very privileged but rather than feeling guilty I feel empathy to those that do not have the same privileges and accept how lucky I have been.
Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.
Funny that because I’m a borderline communist. The term doesn’t bother me and doesn’t bother you. It does, however, seem to bother quite a few and not help to form a constructive debate on issues it is trying to address. Therefore would it not be more beneficial to use different terminology in order to try and help others empathise? Just trying to see this from a different angle given some of the responses on here and other media when Xxxxx privilege is used.
As for men not understanding or being aware of how some women feel about certain situations is laughable. Of course we do, most of us don’t live in an all male boarding school do we.
Go back a few pages to the story of the husband angry because his wife never filled the car with fuel so he'd get to it and it'd be near empty. Turned out, she wasn't lazy or stupid or forgetful - she was scared of an environment that most men wouldn't give a second thought to; being trapped and exposed on a garage forecourt with no means of escape.
Of course not all women feel that way (or maybe not to that extent or under those particular circumstances) but it's one of many tiny little examples where a traditionally male-run society has evolved/developed with the assumption that things are equal when actually they're far from equal. The book mentioned earlier, Invisible Women, is a very good read for countless further examples of things that were never intended to be malicious or anti-women but have ended up that way by generally unthinking policies that have just assumed the default "human" is a white male, about 5'10" and 75kg.
And THAT is male privilege.
Turned out, she wasn’t lazy or stupid or forgetful – she was scared of an environment that most men wouldn’t give a second thought to
Bad example imho. I don't think most women would be bothered by this. Garage forecourts are well lit, open areas with a guarantee of at least one other person being around. So this isn't male privilege, its one woman with an irrational fear of garage forecourts.
@tj did you just wake up form a coma you fell into in the 60s. Take a look around.
Re forecourts, this actually sums up much of today's male privilidge, a victim complex.
One of my female friends also hates garage forecourts and avoids going alone. She doesn't think she'll be physically attacked, but does get harassed while she's filling up and cannot move away.
I think decent men sometimes have little idea of quite how gross other men can be to women, and how they'll take any opportunity to display this behaviour.
Having read through this thread there are some right ****s on here.
The thread was started as a discussion about male privilege, then quickly gets turned into a ton of whataboutery - literally male privilege in action.
The same people also then denying it even exists...
Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.
Funny that because I’m a borderline communist.
And I'm some sort of socialist anarchist* and generally disapprove of inequality in any form, even when it results from equal opportunity.
I still think privilege is a problematic way to approach issues where the key question is about rights, and especially where those that have the given right don't play much of a role in the fact others don't have it. To be sure, I'm not disagreeing with the concept of male privilege as a whole. But in the original context of this thread -- feeling safe alone -- I think it's unhelpful.
That said, even when privilege undeniably exists, labelling it as such may not always be the best strategy for unifying people towards change. Just like labelling someone an 'abuser' may not be the best way to constructively change their (abusive) behavior towards women.
*though I'm too pessimistic and nervous to ever put any of my thoughts into actions
No one's asking for men to feel guilty about male privilege, but the mere realisation that it exists and to be aware of where we might experience it. If the word 'privilege' makes you feel all uncomfortable when talking about how we don't have to worry about being abused or raped all the time, then substitute it for another word buttercup.
Where my experience differs from that of a woman is that I knew full well that if I became uncomfortable enough I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women. That is the “privilege” that I enjoy due simply to being male. I didn’t ask for it, I didn’t earn it, it’s just the way it is. A woman is far less likely to have such an ability to deal with unwanted and inappropriate attention.
I don't want to further derail the thread, which is why I included more than just comment on the sexual harrassment I have experienced in my comment (fwiw, it was an eye opener to what most women must experience most of the time - but it isn't gender based, it's down to idiots thinking they have some "right" to someone because of how they dress/behave). I would however point out that my friend was harrassed by a large group of women, where his relative size was of little importance. One of my experiences was harrassment from a man - OK so I may not be at a size disadvantage, but physically removing myself from the situation could prove difficult. On a similar note, I'd like to see TJ or others fight off a determined and armed female assailant. Bad people are going to put themselves in a position to overpower you. The gender of the victim isn't really an issue here.
Nevertheless, none of this happened out in the countryside. I could see how it might apply to, say, bothying, but not to being out in the middle of nowhere.
I was asking if a well trained woman could fight off male thugs. Not being a fighter of any sort I do not know
Tinribs
All those things I mentioned and many more still exist now
I find no guilt associated with being privileged. I am white, intelligent, had good upbringing and have been relatively successful (monetarily). At no point in my life have I ever had to put much effort in to get to where I am.
I am very privileged but rather than feeling guilty I feel empathy to those that do not have the same privileges and accept how lucky I have been.
Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.
Funny that because I’m a borderline communist. The term doesn’t bother me and doesn’t bother you. It does, however, seem to bother quite a few and not help to form a constructive debate on issues it is trying to address. Therefore would it not be more beneficial to use different terminology in order to try and help others empathise? Just trying to see this from a different angle given some of the responses on here and other media when Xxxxx privilege is used.
Boris and Jeremy on the same forum?
I was asking if a well trained woman could fight off male thugs. Not being a fighter of any sort I do not know
As I suggested last night, isn’t there just a bit of misogyny in this question?
I wouldn’t choose to have a fight with a black belt male. I’d lose, probably with a certain amount of pain. Any untrained random who thinks they could take on a black belt martial artist is deluded.
However, I’d have a chance of beating a black belt female.....why? Just because it’s expected of me as a man who had a few scuffles as a kid? She’s undergone the same training as the men, is well versed in the physicality of it and used to being hit, and is probably pound for pound stronger than her yobbish assailant.
(I’m using ‘black belt’ as a common unit of reference!)
Boris and Jeremy on the same forum?
😂
I still think privilege is a problematic way to approach issues where the key question is about rights, and especially where those that have the given right don’t play much of a role in the fact others don’t have it. To be sure, I’m not disagreeing with the concept of male privilege as a whole. But in the original context of this thread — feeling safe alone — I think it’s unhelpful.
That said, even when privilege undeniably exists, labelling it as such may not always be the best strategy for unifying people towards change. Just like labelling someone an ‘abuser’ may not be the best way to constructively change their (abusive) behavior towards women.
Can I run my thoughts by you and then you post them? You’re explaining what I’m trying to say only betterer
I wouldn’t choose to have a fight with a black belt male. I’d lose, probably with a certain amount of pain. Any untrained random who thinks they could take on a black belt martial artist is deluded.
However, I’d have a chance of beating a black belt female…..why? Just because it’s expected of me as a man who had a few scuffles as a kid? She’s undergone the same training as the men, is well versed in the physicality of it and used to being hit, and is probably pound for pound stronger than her yobbish assailant.
Training will stand you in better stead, but the issue is propensity for violence. Most thugs are used to it and have capacity for it. The majority of your average citizens aren’t regardless of any training they may have had. Violent attacks out of the blue are a damned sight more vicious and visceral than what happens in a controlled environment.
As I suggested last night, isn’t there just a bit of misogyny in this question?
Biology and physics maybe.
Biology and physics maybe.
Or just your typical male privileged asshat in the person asking the question?
You seem quite aggressive towards the female gender in your responses here. Why is that?
Someone hurt me.
Training will stand you in better stead, but the issue is propensity for violence. Most thugs are used to it and have capacity for it.
Was it Mike Tyson who said 'everyone has a plan until someone punches them in the face'..
Someone hurt me.
was it one of them horrible women
To my mind there are a few separate things getting mixed into this thread that contribute to at least some of the disagreement, and this is a subject worth finding common ground on. So for what it's worth I think there are 4 separate questions:
(1) are lone women at high risk of violence, abuse and harm, or do they overestimate the risks?
(2) are the risks that do exist higher than they are for an average man?
(3) if the answer to (1) & (2) is yes there is high risk, and higher than most men experience, then, morally speaking, should this be considered a 'privilege' men have, or an absence of 'right' women should have? Or both?
(4) if the answer to (3) is yes, it's definitely male privilege, then is labelling it as such actually useful for increasing awareness and dealing with the issue?
I realise I'm at risk of misrepresenting what's going on here, but...
If I'm remembering correctly, so far almost everyone agrees with 1), that lone women are at risk. Many agree with 2), although quite a few people have pointed out high rates of random violence against men. But on 3) people are very divided. On 4), me and funkmasterp seem to agree that even when accurate the label 'privilege' isn't helpful, but perhaps most others disagree here, I can't tell yet.
Can I run my thoughts by you and then you post them? You’re explaining what I’m trying to say only betterer
I realise my post above now looks like I took you very literally sorry...
Good questions lego.
(1) Actual risk? I don't think it would be classed as high risk (but still a risk yes) if you were to sit down, look at the statistics and do an actual risk assessment, however the consequences are severe should the hazard be encountered. Perceived risk? Yes, very high - higher than the actual risk.
(2) Again - actual or percieved? I think there are two different answers. Risk of physical harm might be higher for men, but harrassment and sexual assualt much much lower. The percieved risk I would say is much lower than the actual risk.
(3) For me it's something that should be considered as needing fixed. The labels are a distraction from the issue and can switch people off altogether.
Labelling this as male privilege would be fine in the absence of lots of other (including very trivial) things that get labelled as such. Same as what happened with sexual harrassment. I don't think many people would start off questioning what is and isn't sexual harrassment. But now an ugly/older/bald/fat etc man innocently looking the wrong way at a women or asking her how her weekend was on a monday morning at work has been added into the mix, or at least a concentrated effort by some to include it into the mix - people will tend more towards just shrugging off the topic altogether as the seriousness of it has been diluted.
Same goes for male privilege. Do men have certain advantages over women in the world? - most definitely. In this country? Yes, still definitely. Do white people have certain advantages over non white people - yes they do. Do some non white people have certain advantages over white people - yes they do. Do women have certain advantages over men - yes they sure do. Again the term has now been watered down - just do a google search for examples and you will see lists upon lists of trivial crap that gets included under the male privilege banner. You have got to expect people to tune out altogether if they read through some of these concerns - who can be expected to care about the male privilege subject when when things like having access to viagra to aid sex life is classed as a male privilege - completely ignoring the huge and growing inductry aimed almost exclusively at womens sex aids/toys as if this isn't a thing? Turn it around and try and point out the double standards and hypocrisy then you are part of the problem and now the enemy. Oh well in for a penny, in for a pound and all that.
Far far better to tackle each subect individually for what it is - public behaviour issues, violence, sexual assualt etc without grouping it all together as if there is one common cause and perpetrator.
There is no doubt that such labels are now feely been used as a weapon against one demographic of society. This is undeniable and is not a way to effectivly fix very real and serious problems in society - it can only lead to creating more.
IdleJon
Subscriber
I was asking if a well trained woman could fight off male thugs. Not being a fighter of any sort I do not knowAs I suggested last night, isn’t there just a bit of misogyny in this question?
The only sensible way to answer this is to arrange a charity cage match between TJ and one of IdleJon's daughters, or possibly a tag-team.
I'll have a fiver on IdleJon's daughter BTW.
For 1 and 2, I'd say the risk of serious repercussions like being raped or bottled is probably quite low. Though, "quite low" is not the same as "none." Do we argue that it's worrying unduly because you've been out loads of times and only been raped the once?
On the other hand, the chance lower-level unwanted attention for women is probably very high indeed. Leery blokes frotting up to someone on the train, shouts of "nice tits" from across the road, late at night some idiot going "alright darling" and latching on to them... I reckon you'd be hard pressed to find many women this hasn't happened to at some point, for some it's a regular occurrence even, and I'd bet that in many cases the overriding thought in the victim's head is "what's he going to do next?"
One in five women in the UK have experienced sexual assault at some point in their lives (I just looked it up), and only 1.7% of reported rape cases end in prosecution. Whilst violence against men is certainly a problem and a bloke is probably going to be more of a target for a group of pissed-up idiots looking for a fight, I don't think that going "yeah, but what about men?" is particularly helpful here.
For 3 and 4, I really can't help but think this is just whataboutery. If we're discussing the likelihood of women (or men) being attacked is the burning issue, the very crux of the matter, really "but what are we going to call it?" If you don't like the term privilege then fine, but in five pages and counting I don't recall seeing anyone offering an alternative suggestion.
I don't think the term "privilege" is intended to make anyone feel guilty. But if it does make you feel guilty, well, perhaps that's not such a bad thing.
The only sensible way to answer this is to arrange a charity cage match between TJ and one of IdleJon’s daughters, or possibly a tag-team.
I’ll have a fiver on IdleJon’s daughter BTW.
Im sure TJ would be far too much of a gentleman to agree to this. 😁 (Teej, a heads up - just tickle the smallest one. Or ask her what men’s and women’s bits are called. She was taught it in school last week. It’s peanits and reginas, apparently. 😂 (Sorry, completely OT for the thread but it made me giggle last night when she announced that!)
On the other hand, the chance lower-level unwanted attention for women is probably very high indeed. Leery blokes frotting up to someone on the train, shouts of “nice tits” from across the road, late at night some idiot going “alright darling” and latching on to them… I reckon you’d be hard pressed to find many women this hasn’t happened to at some point, for some it’s a regular occurrence even, and I’d bet that in many cases the overriding thought in the victim’s head is “what’s he going to do next?”
Completely agree, this is a key issue that needs to be addressed.
If you don’t like the term privilege then fine, but in five pages and counting I don’t recall seeing anyone offering an alternative suggestion.
Serious question: is 'women's safety' not sufficient?
One in five women in the UK have experienced sexual assault at some point in their lives (I just looked it up), and only 1.7% of reported rape cases end in prosecution. Whilst violence against men is certainly a problem and a bloke is probably going to be more of a target for a group of pissed-up idiots looking for a fight, I don’t think that going “yeah, but what about men?” is particularly helpful here.
I agree that the 'yeah, but what about men' is a very unhelpful response, but I think this is a defensive reaction to the label 'privilege', not a lack of men caring about what women have to deal with. And I think the response would be avoided by talking in terms of women's safety, domestic violence, etc.
I don’t think the term “privilege” is intended to make anyone feel guilty. But if it does make you feel guilty, well, perhaps that’s not such a bad thing.
Excellent, so men don't need to feel guilty about the term? So that means its not their fault then?
I am glad we have cleared that up, but I guess we now need to find out who's fault it is now then?
Serious question: is ‘women’s safety’ not sufficient?
Dunno, I'm not the one complaining about it.
but I think this is a defensive reaction to the label ‘privilege’
I think this is a defensive reaction alright, I'm just not convinced that it's the terminology which is their real sticking point.
The only sensible way to answer this is to arrange a charity cage match between TJ and one of IdleJon’s daughters, or possibly a tag-team.
I’ll have a fiver on IdleJon’s daughter BTW.
I'd put a tenner on. I haven't hit anyone since I was 7 years old!
I couldn't defend myself from an angry mouse
If you don’t like the term privilege then fine, but in five pages and counting I don’t recall seeing anyone offering an alternative suggestion.
Issues that affect women's feeling of safety and well being.
How about that for a start?
Excellent, so men don’t need to feel guilty about the term? So that means its not their fault then?
That isn't what I said.
Say you're quite well off. That in itself is a position of privilege, is it not? Not just because you can afford nice things, but because you don't have to worry about stuff like affording your rent or having to choose between paying for food or electricity today. Moreover, it might not even occur to you that this might be a problem for some people.
Should you feel guilty about this? Of course not. You've worked hard to get where you are, after all. And you've got your own problems, your wife is ill and you're worried about whether brexit is going to mean you have to close some of your businesses. But you can choose whether to use some of your affluence to help out charities, maybe give a couple of quid to the bloke with a dog on a string outside ASDA, or whether to just be self-absorbed and not see past the end of your yacht. And if a little guilt helps you along into being a better person there, I'm not really seeing the problem with that.
Or perhaps "guilt" is the wrong word. Humility perhaps? Empathy?
bazzer
Member
If you don’t like the term privilege then fine, but in five pages and counting I don’t recall seeing anyone offering an alternative suggestion.
Issues that affect women’s feeling of safety and well being.
How about that for a start?
Its about an awful lot more than that tho
Its about an awful lot more than that tho
Is it? well lets have something that describes it better than "Male Privilege" then?
The question should be framed as how do we create a pleasant and safe society for all and how everyone can play their part in realising that.
Excellent, so men don’t need to feel guilty about the term? So that means its not their fault then?
I am glad we have cleared that up, but I guess we now need to find out who’s fault it is now then?
no, no-one needs to, or should, feel guilty.
And it doesn't matter whose fault it is. That's not even close to being the point.
this isn't about blaming people or wanting to punish them for having been born into a western democracy or whatever.
It's about understanding that some people don't have the subtle advantages that many of us take for granted (or aren't even aware of) and using that understanding to help us be more thoughtful and helpful to others.
Thinking it is about guilt or blame or some kind of criticism of any individual is solipsistic IMO.
I think this is a defensive reaction alright, I’m just not convinced that it’s the terminology which is their real sticking point.
I think this is where we differ then -- I do feel the terminology is the main issue in the context of this thread.
I have nothing to disagree with in your example above though. That's all spot on. In fact I think it highlights key difference between the context of this thread, and other forms of privilege.
If you're particularly wealthy that should be shared around*, partly as it's by definition a privilege (not everybody can be wealthier than average), and partly as your privilege gives you a direct way of helping others, i.e. by redistributing some of your wealth. But it's hard to redistribute whatever additional safety you may have as a loan man to a loan women: all you can do is avoid being one of those ass****s that leave women feeling unsafe, and challenge others that do if you have the opportunity and ability to do so.
I also think that in this example of wealthy privilege, defensiveness on the part of the privileged would come from a desire to maintain their privilege. But in the context of this thread, I doubt anyone is defending their right to hit on women in petrol stations, flash them in the woods, or shout nice tits/arse across the street. May be I'm hopelessly naive there, or am still not understanding your position fully.
*As it happens I don't care if the wealth was hard-earned or not, as I don't believe the capacity to work hard comes from 'within'. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to work hard, stay motivated, etc., for all sorts of social and biological reasons. This is why I don't like inequality.
That isn’t what I said.
Say you’re quite well off. That in itself is a position of privilege, is it not? Not just because you can afford nice things, but because you don’t have to worry about stuff like affording your rent or having to choose between paying for food or electricity today. Moreover, it might not even occur to you that this might be a problem for some people.
Should you feel guilty about this? Of course not. You’ve worked hard to get where you are, after all. And you’ve got your own problems, your wife is ill and you’re worried about whether brexit is going to mean you have to close some of your businesses. But you can choose whether to use some of your affluence to help out charities, maybe give a couple of quid to the bloke with a dog on a string outside ASDA, or whether to just be self-absorbed and not see past the end of your yacht. And if a little guilt helps you along into being a better person there, I’m not really seeing the problem with that.
Or perhaps “guilt” is the wrong word. Humility perhaps? Empathy?
Actually we are getting somewhere now !!! I would agree we are afforded privilege in some areas of life. There is no doubt about that.
What I am doubting is its relevance to the issues that some people face. In fact its not helpful its actually alienating people who would otherwise be compassionate about the issue.
Its of no relevance if I am scared or not to go and fill my car up with petrol. What is relevant is why someone else (who ever they are) is. Male privilege is just not relevant.
this isn’t about blaming people or wanting to punish them for having been born into a western democracy or whatever.
For a large enough group it is though and that group seem to be be grabbing at the steering wheel of the bus. You can't blame folk for wanting to get off at that point...
Is it? well lets have something that describes it better than “Male Privilege” then?
We're all ears?
Got to admit, that for me, ‘male privilege’ is pretty much the perfect term. As Cougar has analogised, (is that a word?) it’s not a bad thing per se to have the privilege. But it’s probably important to recognise the fact.
If the term makes men a bit uncomfortable then it’s probably working, and how those men then deal with that feeling says more about them than anything else.
I’m a forty year old white male, and still going through a process of realising how fortunate I am. I don’t feel guilty about it, but I do feel like I have a social responsibility to empathise and try to raise awareness of the inequities within society. So many people walk around with blinkers on.
If the term makes men a bit uncomfortable then it’s probably working, and how those men then deal with that feeling says more about them than anything else.
Thing is I reckon if the term is making you feel uncomfortable you are probably someone who already has some level of empathy. Rather than thinking yeah I should stop making women feel uncomfortable.
Being able to pee standing up is a privilege I am aware of but saying that the fact women can't is a result of male privilege is daft.
V8 - white male of english Protestant descent living in Scotland - I am the oppressor personified. any oppressed group who oppressed them? Me!
Going back to an earlier point. One thing I have found fascinating in this debate is those who understand and those who do not seems not to have any link with political persuasion - on here anyway. some folk I think of as reactionary have shown good understanding of the issues, others who are generally progressive have not
Being able to pee standing up is a privilege
Not for the person cleaning the loo/bathroom floor...
Being able to pee standing up is a privilege I am aware of but saying that the fact women can’t is a result of male privilege is daft.
yes it's daft, you've got it upside down!
Being racially abused in the street is not 'a result of privilege', it is a result of racism.
(and thus no blame should be attached to the average, non-racist, ethnic majority type)
Being able to live your life without fear of racism - that's the privilege. An advantage that is not accessible to certain people.
(and again, it's not your 'fault' that you might have this privilege. But being able to understand and acknowledge it is useful)
Bingo.
I think this is where we differ then — I do feel the terminology is the main issue in the context of this thread.
I think perhaps there's two parallel discussions going on, which is confusing things.
As it happens I don’t care if the wealth was hard-earned or not
Nor I, that isn't what I meant. Plenty of people are born into wealth, for instance. That comment was more to demonstrate self-justification in the example.
Being able to live your life without fear of racism – that’s the privilege. An advantage that is not accessible to certain people.
That's an idea. If "privilege" is problematic for some, how about "advantage"?
Or how about we just frame it as some people are disadvantaged? But then a convenient term is lost to beat people with, shut down and exclude from conversation.
to beat people with, shut down and exclude from conversation.
Literally no one is doing that. If anything, the terminology has and will continue to encourage debate and reflection. It’s down to the individual how they react to the challenge of the terminology.
Nor I, that isn’t what I meant. Plenty of people are born into wealth, for instance. That comment was more to demonstrate self-justification in the example.
Yes, got ya, I figured you hadn't meant that, I just wanted to be very clear what my politics are as that seems useful in a debate like this!
I think perhaps there’s two parallel discussions going on, which is confusing things.
At least two!
I do get the idea doris articulated well there -- that privilege is used to reference a benefit that one group has more of (on average) than another, and in particular how the former group may be able to go about their lives without thinking about it. I just don't think makes sense to refer to all such benefits as 'privileges', and particularly not the one that started this thread. To (nearly) quote doris, I'd say: "Being able to live your life without fear of racism – that’s a right. A right that is not accessible to certain people.
Privileges, to my mind, are not something to aspire to but to reject. This was the point of the writer I linked before (here again). I think this is largely why the terminology provokes defensive reactions so often.
EDIT:
The problem is that by referring to a whole spectrum of issues as privileges you lump together things like benefiting from plutocracy with things like being free from police brutality or sexual harassment. It risks losing track of what's wrong with society, and what's right but not universally experienced.
to beat people with, shut down and exclude from conversation.
Literally no one is doing that. If anything, the terminology has and will continue to encourage debate and reflection. It’s down to the individual how they react to the challenge of the terminology.
I have to agree with croe, I do think this happens quite a lot. May be it often springs from misunderstandings, but in any case there is an issue.
We're living in a hugely politically polarised time, and language is fueling the fire.
That’s a great article, Lego. I think this paragraph...
The discourse of privilege creates false dichotomies and unnecessary tension among people who actually agree with each other. If, instead of demanding that the poor white man must acknowledge his privilege, we remind him that other people are being denied their fundamental rights, he may wholeheartedly agree and eagerly join the movement.
...Probably sums up what people are disagreeing about on this thread, mostly. I’d like to hope, at least.
I have to say, I’m partially persuaded that the terminology is a problem, because although it doesn’t make me feel defensive/guilty, I can see it has that effect on others.
Been thinking about elements of this thread a lot today. I’m wondering if the word privilege is just seen as a negative word by some people and that is why it solicits a negative response. I also wonder if in these days of social media some words and phrases can also be overused / used in the wrong context and this can also result in people simply becoming irritated by them. Snowflake, I’m looking at you.
It’s been an interesting thread for sure and there are a number of separate debates that have branched out from the OP.
Anybody that thinks women don’t face daily problems that men don’t is either extremely naive or part of the problem. Sadly ‘It’s a man’s world’ still rings true and that needs to change. I’m just not sure that reminding people how lucky they are is the best way of attempting to address any issue.
On a more serious note I think a charity fight between TJ and Idlejohn’s daughter would be brilliant.
If you met my wife, you wouldn't go out late and alone!
On a more serious note I think a charity fight between TJ and Idlejohn’s daughter would be brilliant.
Why do you all want to see me beaten up by a kid? Infamy infamy you have all got it in for me!
I've been out after dark a lot recently on my own.
Last week I hired an E-MTB for 3 days. I wanted to make the most of it by doing two big rides every day. The usual pattern was day ride, Charge it up, Night ride. Only way to get the most out of it.
It has to be said the Solo Night Rides felt a bit grim at times and was more concerned with just trying to survive the ride rather than push myself on the technical sections.
Definitely not as fun as riding in the day.
The only advantage is the sunset (unless the weather is grim as ****) and there are a lot less cars on the road sections!
yes it’s daft, you’ve got it upside down!
Being racially abused in the street is not ‘a result of privilege’, it is a result of racism.
(and thus no blame should be attached to the average, non-racist, ethnic majority type)
Being able to live your life without fear of racism – that’s the privilege. An advantage that is not accessible to certain people.
(and again, it’s not your ‘fault’ that you might have this privilege. But being able to understand and acknowledge it is useful)
So the issues are not a result of privilege, the privilege does not stop people understanding the issues facing people with these problems. So ergo the whole thing has nothing to do with the privilege. The privilege label is at best irrelevant and at worst alienating.
So the issues are not a result of privilege,
Clearly not but that doesn't stop someone with privilege not having those issues. The problem is where people don't understand or see their own privilege.
Clearly not but that doesn’t stop someone with privilege not having those issues. The problem is where people don’t understand or see their own privilege.
Rubbish, the problems are the things that create the issues in the first place. Lets look at those rather than pretending Male Privilege has anything to do with it.
Also its does not even really mean anything in this context, its just a vacuous sound bite. It helps no one and thats one of the real problems women face.
The problem is where people don’t understand or see their own privilege.
That's very true in the case of something like economic inequality, where the wealthy are often unaware of have much poverty still exists and are at the same time part of the system the produces the issue and have some ability to mitigate it.
I don't think it's true in the context of this thread though. I could be wrong, but I assume that most people who are unaware (or underestimate) the issues of safety or harassment loan women have to deal with are unaware precisely because they wouldn't consider behaving in such a way themselves, and they've probably distanced themselves from those generally unpleasant characters that do.
So if the aim is to stop people hitting on women at petrol stations, flashing them on the moors, shouting 'nice xxxx' across the street, let alone strangers dragging women off the street and raping them (to take a few examples from this thread), I don't see how a label of male privilege serves any purpose. The problem is those people that think control over, and disrespect towards, women is legitimate -- and calling them out on their privilege is hardly going to help.
Lets look at those rather than pretending Male Privilege has anything to do with it.
And again, clearly male privilege has nothing to do with it - who has said it does?
Yes the problems need to be addressed and pointing out that people who don't have to deal with the problems have male privilege is not going to help.
However, there is still a male privilege aspect, that is all. Getting people to accept/be aware of their privileges would help in a lot of situations as it would allow them to see where and why those suffering due to a lack of the same privileges are having issues.
I don’t see how a label of male privilege serves any purpose.
The term is chosen to polarize opinion and stir up a row. It's literally trolling. There would be no debate without that inflammatory term. Nobody has disputed that women suffer more of at least one type of bother in busy areas and nobody has disputed that women on a dark trail in the middle of nowhere are not disadvantaged relative to men because in the dark nobody knows you're female and anyway, there's only Badgers and Owls about. If you want to troll up a row you have to use strange terminology or the thread wouldn't get moved from the bike forum to the chat forum and your target audience won't squabble.
Or as someone else put it:
the terminology has and will continue to encourage debate and reflection.
We're the suckers for fuelling self confessed trolling.
And again, clearly male privilege has nothing to do with it – who has said it does?
However, there is still a male privilege aspect, that is all.
In the same post! Priceless. Keep 'em coming. 😀
Thread summary:
"Some women are afraid to go out alone."
"Yeah, but they called us names!"
Thread summary:
“Some women are afraid to go out alone.”
“Yeah, but they called us names!”
And your point is caller? 🙂
nobody has disputed that women on a dark trail in the middle of nowhere are not disadvantaged relative to men because in the dark nobody knows you’re female and anyway, there’s only Badgers and Owls about.
I'm going to dispute that. If you really believe there is never anyone about on a dark trail then have a read through one of the "strangest things you have seen whilst out riding" threads on here. There are numerous accounts of riders finding doggers, junkies and other delightful people whilst out riding. Men might find this amusing but women find it genuinely frightening.
On another note, I found this from the BBC last year. It's about a Runners World survey (American).
"What was a surprise was how men, and some women, don't see that it's a prevalent problem," says Michelle Hamilton, the journalist behind the Running While Female story.
The 2017 survey revealed that 43% of women experienced harassment while running - with the number rising to 58% for women under 30. Just 4% of men reported the same.
The poll also found 30% of women said they had been followed by a harasser on foot, by car or bike. And the vast majority of women said these fears led them to change their habits - to run only during the day, to change their routes, to carry pepper spray or - in the case of 1% of women - to carry a loaded gun.
Ms Hamilton recalls a huge response from male runners - a mix of support and scorn. Some called the claims ridiculous while others said women just needed to learn how to protect themselves."
I’m going to dispute that. If you really believe there is never anyone about on a dark trail then have a read through one of the “strangest things you have seen whilst out riding” threads on here. There are numerous accounts of riders finding doggers, junkies and other delightful people whilst out riding. Men might find this amusing but women find it genuinely frightening.
The fact it warranted a specific thread on here suggests these things are so unusual as to be worth a thread. There are two dogging spots near me, they don't go far from their cars and rain+winter puts them off anyway. I really can't see why a junkie would be far out of town at night. I'm sure it's happens but the dangers women face are from other people and by definition being 'in the middle of no-where'.
Take a look at the reported crime maps in your area, the pattern is pretty clear.
On another note [snip]
It certainly is another note. None of this relates to being "in the middle of no-where".
I’m going to dispute that. If you really believe there is never anyone about on a dark trail then have a read through one of the “strangest things you have seen whilst out riding” threads on here. There are numerous accounts of riders finding doggers, junkies and other delightful people whilst out riding. Men might find this amusing but women find it genuinely frightening.
There are numerous accounts because they have all been brought together into one thread - as per thread title. If you opened a thread about UFO sightings and read the numerous accounts of sightings you wouldn't assume that UFOs were prevalent.
The term was first coined in writing as white privilege, before that the original concept was that this privilege was both a legacy and cause of racism. The the two were not seperate. It was a term used by black people. It was then hijacked just like the term #metoo by mostly white women and the meaning changed from its original use. There is a certain irony there, I'll bet most the people on here using both terms are unaware they are appropriating black concepts and demonstrating they are the very same type of people the term was first used to describe.
If you opened a thread about UFO sightings and read the numerous accounts of sightings you wouldn’t assume that UFOs were prevalent.
It's good to hear that it's not prevalent. I'm sure it'll be of great comfort to women to know that they're probably only going to be in danger of being attacked once or twice.
t’s good to hear that it’s not prevalent. I’m sure it’ll be of great comfort to women to know that they’re probably only going to be in danger of being attacked once or twice.
No the chances are they will not be attacked at all cougar, you know that and I know that.
The UK is generally a very safe place, most people don't get attacked when they go outside. Be that the woods or the high street. Violent crime in the UK is rare, but you know that too. It just does not suit your trolling argument.
Violent crime in the UK is rare
With that in mind, would you be happy to go for a midnight stroll on your own through Moss Side?
With that in mind, would you be happy to go for a midnight stroll on your own through Moss Side?
If I had too for some reason I would, but that's not what we are talking about is it. Its just another crap argument isn't it?
There are 790,000 named roads and streets in the UK. How many are you scared to take a stroll on?
If I had too for some reason I would, but that’s not what we are talking about is it. Its just another crap argument isn’t it?
This. False Analogy fallacy. It's just trolling.
There are 790,000 named roads and streets in the UK. How many are you scared to take a stroll on?
So parts of Britain are ‘no-go areas’??? Cougar *is* Donald Trump and I claim my free golf cart. 😀
There's plenty of places I wouldn't go on my own at night.
And no, I'm not trolling. I'm just trying to drive home the point that "mostly safe" is insufficient.