Just talking to my wife about this thread and she told me that my middle daughter’s best friend had to go to give a statement in the police station because a man exposed himself to her on the way home from school last week. She’s 12. No amount of martial arts training will protect her from that.
It's OK, our resident meninists will be along shortly to tell you that women flash their foofs to 12-year old boys all the time too.
(I'm fairly sure I'd have remembered if that had ever happened to me though.)
Only on STW could a discussion such as this dissolve into a semantics argument.
Not just on STW, that's partly why I posted the link I did (written by a female lawyer activist, as it happens). I think this thread is a perfect example of why she wrote what she did. Here it is again.
https://medium.com/human-development-project/let-s-stop-talking-so-much-about-privilege-8f9fe543c57e
Ah, I missed that. Will have a look after tea. Ta.
Do you doubt her ability to do this in a street fight because she is a girl? Does your misogyny extend that far? Or are you simply saying that a trained martial artist is no use in a fight, male or female?
I mean no disrespect to your daughters in this (and I'd say exactly the same if you were referring to a son who was martial arts trained) but street fights are not controlled martial arts affairs, no-one bows from the waist down and plays by the rules and it's not a Jason Statham / Angelina Jolie display of balletic grace and prowess.
It's a ****ing mess with punching, biting, kicking, scratching, glass bottles and one punch from a big bloke WILL take you down.
I'm not saying that a trained martial arts person is no use in a street fight (and note, I'm not the person who posted the first comment questioning their abilities) - I'm sure they'd be far more use in a fight than I would be but a brawl or a sudden attack on an individual out of nowhere is definitely not martial arts.
In the cadets at school, we were taught some "dirty fighting" stuff and the RAF Regiment guys said all of the above and then finished by saying, if you did manage to subdue / injure an assailant enough to get free, you don't hang round and wait for the applause, you don't take your jacket off and square up to them for some more, you **** off sharpish. They were good teachers, very funny. And actually, even back then, they concentrated on helping the girls to defend themselves saying that the style of attack would be different. Man on man was more likely to be plain violence, man on woman was likely to have an eventual motive of sexual assault.
I posted something similar earlier, but removed it. The sad fact is (and I speak from experience that I’m not proud of here) if you want to learn to defend yourself well, you have to be willing to get very, very violent extremely quickly. Most people simply aren’t built that way. This is a good thing. Self defence training can help to a degree, mainly through situational awareness. Fighting as a sport is far removed from the hideous, animalistic shit that happens in a real world violent confrontation. Run away if you can is the soundest advice.
Enjoyed that article Legometeorology
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
oh god this is so retarded I can't begin to tell you. How about you just teach your sons not to be so...rapey?
I mean no disrespect to your daughters in this (
Yeah, it’s fine. I know exactly what you mean - but I’d give her more of a chance than me. 😁
funkmasterp, yes avoiding is best. My kids would naturally do that, which is sort of the point. As I said, I was responding to the idiot who thought that women who felt at risk should get BJJ training.
Enjoyed that article Legometeorology
Completely agree and these quotes from it sum things up for me.
Calling these things privileges instead of rights does not take seriously enough what is being denied to people who lack them
We should be angry that some people are denied those basic human rights, but no one should ever feel guilty for having them
And that is why anything followed by privilege is, in my eyes, a rubbish approach to starting a sensible conversation on these matters. The language used makes all the difference.
Thanks for the link. A well written and great article.
funkmasterp, yes avoiding is best. My kids would naturally do that, which is sort of the point. As I said, I was responding to the idiot who thought that women who felt at risk should get BJJ training.
Missed that post thankfully. That’s a very stupid thing for somebody to post.
What if I said there was a country where 85% of the homeless are women, they are given longer prison sentences for the same crimes. 30% less go to university. They die younger and are injured more in their jobs.
You'd probably say that county had a problem.
An interesting perspective on male privilege from transgendered men:
I do notice that some women do expect me to acquiesce or concede to them more now: Let them speak first, let them board the bus first, let them sit down first, and so on. I also notice that in public spaces men are more collegial with me, which they express through verbal and nonverbal messages: head lifting when passing me on the sidewalk and using terms like “brother” and “boss man” to acknowledge me. As a former lesbian feminist, I was put off by the way that some women want to be treated by me, now that I am a man, because it violates a foundational belief I carry, which is that women are fully capable human beings who do not need men to acquiesce or concede to them.
What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being.
I can recall a moment where this difference hit home. A couple of years into my medical gender transition, I was traveling on a public bus early one weekend morning. There were six people on the bus, including me. One was a woman. She was talking on a mobile phone very loudly and remarked that “men are such a–holes.” I immediately looked up at her and then around at the other men. Not one had lifted his head to look at the woman or anyone else. The woman saw me look at her and then commented to the person she was speaking with about “some a–hole on the bus right now looking at me.”
We should be angry that some people are denied those basic human rights, but no one should ever feel guilty for having them
The term isn't meant to make men feel guilty. It's pointing out the advantages that men might not realise they have. You can't avoid it, so there's no requirement for you to feel guilty, you just need to know about it. White privilege also exists, but in that case there might be more that you can do about it.
And that is why anything followed by privilege is, in my eyes, a rubbish approach to starting a sensible conversation on these matters.
I dunno, it makes a point. But the thing is that in trying deny the term you look like you are denying the problem or at least diverting from it.
This is a weird thread. Just about to head out on a night ride. May see you later.
The term isn’t meant to make men feel guilty. It’s pointing out the advantages that men might not realise they have.
Must admit I was about to post that there can’t be many men who wouldn’t realise that women feel they have to be more careful of where they put themselves. Do they not have women in their lives they can talk to? Then I re-read the OP so ho hum maybe the ignorance is more widespread than I would have believed. However it doesn’t alter my belief that calling it ‘privilege’ is counterproductive & an oversimplification of why women feel threatened.
However it doesn’t alter my belief that calling it ‘privilege’ is counterproductive & an oversimplification of why women feel threatened.
Once again somebody does words better than me.
So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?
Should you be out by yourself at night every drunk/druggy/nob-head feels that you are clearly desperately lonely and therefore obliged to be their new best friend.
It happens in broad daylight as well, it happens to my g/f on the till at B&M, and the other girls, we were only talking about it earlier this evening.
In the cadets at school, we were taught some “dirty fighting” stuff...
Ah ha - who knew we had an expert in our midst.
So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?
Read the linked article, sums it up much more eloquently than I ever could. Labelling these issues as a privilege for those not directly affected as opposed to a right for those that are is the problem imo . Like it or not it’s seen by some, not me but clearly others on this very thread, as apportioning blame. Women have a right to feel safe and that is what we should be fighting for and labelling it as, a right. Calling it a privilege for others is coming at the issue from the wrong direction imo. Just doesn’t seem like the right way to create empathy in people. Just my opinion and I don’t really find the phrasing offensive, I just see how others might.
Read the article, see what you think. It makes a lot more sense than I do.
My daughter is awesome at stuff like that, just the look is enough!!!!
Everyone has the right to be heard, the right to be considered beautiful, the right not to live in fear.
Who makes all these rights up and where are they written down?
In 47 years on this Earth, not once have I walked somewhere on my own at night and worried that I might get dragged down a back alley and raped.
Tell me about your other fears.
So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?
Because it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men, if you don't realise that you have been fooled. The very fact we are having this conversation proves it.
When I say it misses the point I mean it should not about what men have or what men can do. We she be focusing in the issues that face women and sorting them out. Even if some of those issues affect men too. It should have nothing to do with what one gender has or can or can't do. We should focus on the issues that are the problem and resolving them.
As for men not understanding or being aware of how some women feel about certain situations is laughable. Of course we do, most of us don't live in an all male boarding school do we.
Because it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men,
Its not designed to have any particular effect and certainly not this one. Its just a nice simple way of stating that men have advantages that women cannot access. Its not just about going out late at night. Its about getting promoted at work, its about earning more for the same job, its about all sorts of issues.
It is male privilege
it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men
Should it not lay guilt towards men? As it is conditioning from predominantly male behaviour that makes females react as in the OP.
I find no guilt associated with being privileged. I am white, intelligent, had good upbringing and have been relatively successful (monetarily). At no point in my life have I ever had to put much effort in to get to where I am.
I am very privileged but rather than feeling guilty I feel empathy to those that do not have the same privileges and accept how lucky I have been.
Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.
Funny that because I’m a borderline communist. The term doesn’t bother me and doesn’t bother you. It does, however, seem to bother quite a few and not help to form a constructive debate on issues it is trying to address. Therefore would it not be more beneficial to use different terminology in order to try and help others empathise? Just trying to see this from a different angle given some of the responses on here and other media when Xxxxx privilege is used.
As for men not understanding or being aware of how some women feel about certain situations is laughable. Of course we do, most of us don’t live in an all male boarding school do we.
Go back a few pages to the story of the husband angry because his wife never filled the car with fuel so he'd get to it and it'd be near empty. Turned out, she wasn't lazy or stupid or forgetful - she was scared of an environment that most men wouldn't give a second thought to; being trapped and exposed on a garage forecourt with no means of escape.
Of course not all women feel that way (or maybe not to that extent or under those particular circumstances) but it's one of many tiny little examples where a traditionally male-run society has evolved/developed with the assumption that things are equal when actually they're far from equal. The book mentioned earlier, Invisible Women, is a very good read for countless further examples of things that were never intended to be malicious or anti-women but have ended up that way by generally unthinking policies that have just assumed the default "human" is a white male, about 5'10" and 75kg.
And THAT is male privilege.
Turned out, she wasn’t lazy or stupid or forgetful – she was scared of an environment that most men wouldn’t give a second thought to
Bad example imho. I don't think most women would be bothered by this. Garage forecourts are well lit, open areas with a guarantee of at least one other person being around. So this isn't male privilege, its one woman with an irrational fear of garage forecourts.
@tj did you just wake up form a coma you fell into in the 60s. Take a look around.
Re forecourts, this actually sums up much of today's male privilidge, a victim complex.
One of my female friends also hates garage forecourts and avoids going alone. She doesn't think she'll be physically attacked, but does get harassed while she's filling up and cannot move away.
I think decent men sometimes have little idea of quite how gross other men can be to women, and how they'll take any opportunity to display this behaviour.
Having read through this thread there are some right ****s on here.
The thread was started as a discussion about male privilege, then quickly gets turned into a ton of whataboutery - literally male privilege in action.
The same people also then denying it even exists...
Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.
Funny that because I’m a borderline communist.
And I'm some sort of socialist anarchist* and generally disapprove of inequality in any form, even when it results from equal opportunity.
I still think privilege is a problematic way to approach issues where the key question is about rights, and especially where those that have the given right don't play much of a role in the fact others don't have it. To be sure, I'm not disagreeing with the concept of male privilege as a whole. But in the original context of this thread -- feeling safe alone -- I think it's unhelpful.
That said, even when privilege undeniably exists, labelling it as such may not always be the best strategy for unifying people towards change. Just like labelling someone an 'abuser' may not be the best way to constructively change their (abusive) behavior towards women.
*though I'm too pessimistic and nervous to ever put any of my thoughts into actions
No one's asking for men to feel guilty about male privilege, but the mere realisation that it exists and to be aware of where we might experience it. If the word 'privilege' makes you feel all uncomfortable when talking about how we don't have to worry about being abused or raped all the time, then substitute it for another word buttercup.
Where my experience differs from that of a woman is that I knew full well that if I became uncomfortable enough I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women. That is the “privilege” that I enjoy due simply to being male. I didn’t ask for it, I didn’t earn it, it’s just the way it is. A woman is far less likely to have such an ability to deal with unwanted and inappropriate attention.
I don't want to further derail the thread, which is why I included more than just comment on the sexual harrassment I have experienced in my comment (fwiw, it was an eye opener to what most women must experience most of the time - but it isn't gender based, it's down to idiots thinking they have some "right" to someone because of how they dress/behave). I would however point out that my friend was harrassed by a large group of women, where his relative size was of little importance. One of my experiences was harrassment from a man - OK so I may not be at a size disadvantage, but physically removing myself from the situation could prove difficult. On a similar note, I'd like to see TJ or others fight off a determined and armed female assailant. Bad people are going to put themselves in a position to overpower you. The gender of the victim isn't really an issue here.
Nevertheless, none of this happened out in the countryside. I could see how it might apply to, say, bothying, but not to being out in the middle of nowhere.
I was asking if a well trained woman could fight off male thugs. Not being a fighter of any sort I do not know
Tinribs
All those things I mentioned and many more still exist now
I find no guilt associated with being privileged. I am white, intelligent, had good upbringing and have been relatively successful (monetarily). At no point in my life have I ever had to put much effort in to get to where I am.
I am very privileged but rather than feeling guilty I feel empathy to those that do not have the same privileges and accept how lucky I have been.
Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.
Funny that because I’m a borderline communist. The term doesn’t bother me and doesn’t bother you. It does, however, seem to bother quite a few and not help to form a constructive debate on issues it is trying to address. Therefore would it not be more beneficial to use different terminology in order to try and help others empathise? Just trying to see this from a different angle given some of the responses on here and other media when Xxxxx privilege is used.
Boris and Jeremy on the same forum?
I was asking if a well trained woman could fight off male thugs. Not being a fighter of any sort I do not know
As I suggested last night, isn’t there just a bit of misogyny in this question?
I wouldn’t choose to have a fight with a black belt male. I’d lose, probably with a certain amount of pain. Any untrained random who thinks they could take on a black belt martial artist is deluded.
However, I’d have a chance of beating a black belt female.....why? Just because it’s expected of me as a man who had a few scuffles as a kid? She’s undergone the same training as the men, is well versed in the physicality of it and used to being hit, and is probably pound for pound stronger than her yobbish assailant.
(I’m using ‘black belt’ as a common unit of reference!)
Boris and Jeremy on the same forum?
😂
I still think privilege is a problematic way to approach issues where the key question is about rights, and especially where those that have the given right don’t play much of a role in the fact others don’t have it. To be sure, I’m not disagreeing with the concept of male privilege as a whole. But in the original context of this thread — feeling safe alone — I think it’s unhelpful.
That said, even when privilege undeniably exists, labelling it as such may not always be the best strategy for unifying people towards change. Just like labelling someone an ‘abuser’ may not be the best way to constructively change their (abusive) behavior towards women.
Can I run my thoughts by you and then you post them? You’re explaining what I’m trying to say only betterer
I wouldn’t choose to have a fight with a black belt male. I’d lose, probably with a certain amount of pain. Any untrained random who thinks they could take on a black belt martial artist is deluded.
However, I’d have a chance of beating a black belt female…..why? Just because it’s expected of me as a man who had a few scuffles as a kid? She’s undergone the same training as the men, is well versed in the physicality of it and used to being hit, and is probably pound for pound stronger than her yobbish assailant.
Training will stand you in better stead, but the issue is propensity for violence. Most thugs are used to it and have capacity for it. The majority of your average citizens aren’t regardless of any training they may have had. Violent attacks out of the blue are a damned sight more vicious and visceral than what happens in a controlled environment.
As I suggested last night, isn’t there just a bit of misogyny in this question?
Biology and physics maybe.
Biology and physics maybe.
Or just your typical male privileged asshat in the person asking the question?
You seem quite aggressive towards the female gender in your responses here. Why is that?
Someone hurt me.
Training will stand you in better stead, but the issue is propensity for violence. Most thugs are used to it and have capacity for it.
Was it Mike Tyson who said 'everyone has a plan until someone punches them in the face'..
