When we were students, we got on a train to go home, about six us, mixed gender. This drunk scumbag started making comments to one of the women, being complimentary in an totally undesirable way. He said something like 'I'll leave your girlfriend alone now' to the chap next to her. Stupidly (were were only 19) he said 'she's not my girlfriend', at which point he sidled right over and started fawning over her chatting her up with boozy breath and all.
Many men see women as quarry, even if they aren't trying to be violent or offend. I think this is what feminists mean when they talk about the violence inherent in heterosexual interactions. Men seem to see fit to force their attention onto women even if they don't mean to be actually violent, and they think this is all fine.
No assault was reported that night, no assault took place technically, but it had an emotional effect. And it happens all the time.
That sucks @alisonsmiles.
Sounds like my life growing up as a young boy though you can swap a couple of them with actual (not irregular) violence.
That's not to belittle the experience of women at all. My original sentiment is heartfelt.
But I dislike the talk of male "privilege" when there are very real issues men face that, because of long-standing cultural issues, don't get treated seriously.
The fact that the whole thing is framed as "male privilege" rather than "female experience" should set alarm bells ringing - but it doesn't. That's despite men *overwhelmingly* being the victims of violence.
But for some reason the world only gives a **** about what's happening to half of the innocent population.
Both sexes have shit to deal with and how things were historically shouldn't have a bearing on how we deal with the present.
But I dislike the talk of male “privilege” when there are very real issues men face that, because of long-standing cultural issues, don’t get treated seriously.
Males in general do enjoy privilege in certain areas. It doesn't mean that men don't face other issues of course. Male privilege is term that applies to specific things that men can do without worry. Same as white women enjoy white privilege.
call out inappropriate behaviour when you see
Go call out the next women you see henpecking and belittling her husband in public and see where that gets you.
Same as white women enjoy white privilege.
And women enjoy women privilege. Funny you don't see many campaigns against that though.
I don’t feel particularly oppressed , but at the risk of sounding like someone on here I have:
Been sexually propositioned by a middle aged man when I was 14 whilst sitting on a park bench.
Had a large man simulate masturbation while showing me his penis on a beach in Barbados.
Climbed out of my bedroom whilst a student to avoid having sex with a drunken female I didn’t want to have sex with.
I appreciate that some women have it far worse, but have I just been unlucky or is this sort of stuff more widespread than is commonly believed?
Not this again. Male privilege is a complete myth.
If you look at the facts women are far more privileged and pedalalised than men in Western society.
The fact some people are so blind to it and think the opposite is testiment to how deeply engrained women's privilege actually is.
BWD, thanks for that.
Otherwise, I have to say that a lot of the (male) voices in this thread make me despair. It’s a shame we all can’t accept that we’ve been gifted with some things in life (even if it’s just the “luck” of being big enough not to have to worry about the other half of the population who could easily overpower you) and accept that there are some issues in society that aren’t about us (men). For us (men) to feel the need to try and make these discussions all about ourselves (ooh, look at all the poor, little, hard done by men) is just embarrassing and gives us (men) all something to be ashamed of.
Sad face.
Disappointed by the underlying misogyny demonstrated on this thread, although maybe a few years ago I’d have been on the side of the scoffing ones. What changed for me; listening, actually listening to females experiences of doing the same job that I do, dealing with people from the the grim and not so grim end of society. I realised that how people spoke to and treated me is often fundamentally different to how my female colleagues would be spoken to and treated. Both males and females get grief from idiots; but the sort of crap that women deal with is (IMHO) more insidious, often sexual, and actually more about power dynamics than anything I have ever experienced as a bloke. When I put myself (not literally, lol) in the shoes of a usually smaller, less physically powerful, female individual than myself and imagined how that felt, it was a bit of a revelation, but not a pleasant one. It’s nothing to do with what actually happens, more often than not, it’s far more sinister than that. It’s the attempted suggestion from the abuser of what could happen that epitomises ‘male privilege’.
Take the recent rape ‘jokes’ made by that idiot Ukipper against Jess Phillips. Look at how those were laughed of by him and his supporters, and surely you can see the parallels between that behaviour and the comments from the male privilege deniers on this thread.
Been sexually propositioned by a middle aged man when I was 14 whilst sitting on a park bench.
Had a large man simulate masturbation while showing me his penis on a beach in Barbados.
Climbed out of my bedroom whilst a student to avoid having sex with a drunken female I didn’t want to have sex with.
Your night rides are more eventful than mine. I *did* see two foxes and an Owl this year.
and actually more about power dynamics
This.
An event last week on the high peak trail near us which both men and women use frequently in daylight hours was a man knocking one out leering at a woman whilst wearing a pillow case over his head with eye holes cut out. I'm not being funny but that kind of story is clearly going to stop women goung out alone. You just don't hear of women doing things like that!
whilst wearing a pillow case over his head with eye holes cut out
Careful now. How did you know it was a man?
FFS,
The original post was excellent and well thought out. Somehow it's turned into "what about poor men too?"
I'd hardly describe myself as 'woke', but I think it's a sad world when many women feel too afraid to cycle alone at night.
Not this again. Male privilege is a complete myth.
And women enjoy women privilege. Funny you don’t see many campaigns against that though.
I wonder why?
Men dismissing the idea of male privilege is just male privilege at work. You don't see a problem, because you're men, whereas most women do see one. This is the entire point.
I'm no hard nut, I'm not especially big, but I can walk around at night without worrying too much. Sure, I might get mugged, but it's not particularly likely. Why isn't it that likely? Because if you wanted to hassle someone, you'd be unlikely to pick me because I'm reasonably well built. If you wanted to be sure of an easy mugging target, you'd be more likely to go for someone smaller, lighter, perhaps physically weaker. Now, which section of society tends towards being smaller and physically weaker on average?
Suspect that the deniers need to spend some time really actually listening to a variety of women. I mean actually listening not simply dismissing their concerns. How much more ****ing arrogant can you get?
women: We're experiencing a problem here
men: No you aren't, cos we say you're not
More men kill themsleves in the UK every year due to being screwed over by women in separation/divorce and being kept from seeing their children than there are women killed at the hands of men.
men: We're experiencing a problem here
women and other men: No you aren’t, cos we say you’re not
Where are the countless articles and media onslaught about female privilege and toxic feminiinity? Or is it only a problem when women are at a disadvantage?
Now, which section of society tends towards being smaller and physically weaker on average?
This, and in addition to being the above, woman are involuntary in possession of something that most blokes, in principle, want. And when they are pissed, or scumbags, or thick misogynistic bastards or all of the above they think nothing of expressing their desires in many ways. Subtle, vulgar, aggressive, it’s all about power.
And decent men get tarred with the same brush, don’t like it, and then deny male privilege exists, putting their status as ‘decent men’ at risk, TBH.
My missus fell runs on the moors all year round on her own.
She's more bothered about walking through a town centre.
More people more chance of knob heads.
I don't worry so much
Aye, it’s people that are the problem, generally.
More men kill themsleves in the UK every year due to being screwed over by women in separation/divorce and being kept from seeing their children than there are women killed at the hands of men.
You aren't getting this at all. Once again:
YES, men suffer. The term 'male privilege' does not mean that men don't have problems. The term refers to a certain set of problems that women have that men don't. The reason it's talked about is because so many men are oblivious to it - as this thread shows!
This isn't about tarring all men or women with one brush. That would be ridiculous. Of course there are vulnerable men and abusive women. This is well known and talked about. Male privilege and toxic masculinity are very specific gender related issues. Suicide is not a gender issue, having your ex be an arsehole to you is not a gender issue. These things can happen to anyone.
Suicide is *absolutely* a gender issue @molgrips. As is violence against men.
I'm not belittling problems that face women - but as far as I'm concerned "male privilege" is a term that is unhelpful in any debate about equality.
There are multiple gender imbalances in our society. Discounting violence and suicide - which massively *massively* disproportionately affect men - in favour of pointing out the things women suffer rather than as well as is just another version of getting the plebs to fight amongst themselves.
I think the problem is calling it male privilege, rather than issues faced by women.
Everyone has issues they face some are gender specific and some are faced by both genders.
Tree frogs don't face issues with house prices making it hard for first time buyers, but that's not tree frog privilege is it. It a problem people face with house prices.
Women having to suffer men exposing themselves to them, is not male privilege its a nasty individual exposing him self.
Same as a woman making it difficult for a man to see his kids its not female privilege its a woman using a child to get at a guy.
These are just problems people face and if people of both genders stopped acting like arseholes the world would be a better place.
Well said molgrips - you get it. Its astonishing that in this day and age so many guys don't. I have only skimmed this thread but some of you are living in the middleages still.
I’m no hard nut, I’m not especially big, but I can walk around at night without worrying too much. Sure, I might get mugged, but it’s not particularly likely. Why isn’t it that likely? Because if you wanted to hassle someone, you’d be unlikely to pick me because I’m reasonably well built. If you wanted to be sure of an easy mugging target, you’d be more likely to go for someone smaller, lighter, perhaps physically weaker. Now, which section of society tends towards being smaller and physically weaker on average?
On a trail in the dark “in the middle of no-where” all you can see of an approaching MTB is a bright white light. Nobody can tell you're "reasonably well built". The real reason you're not getting mugged at night “in the middle of no-where” is because no mugger is going to walk out into the "middle of no-where" and wait for hours in the hope that tonight might be the lucky night someone rides past. ...and that's why women are just as safe as you are in the context the OP raises. It's pure perception.
My missus fell runs on the moors all year round on her own.
She’s more bothered about walking through a town centre.
She's spot on AFAIC, and quite right to ignore the scaremongers.
An event last week on the high peak trail near us which both men and women use frequently in daylight hours was a man knocking one out leering at a woman whilst wearing a pillow case over his head with eye holes cut out. I’m not being funny but that kind of story is clearly going to stop women goung out alone. You just don’t hear of women doing things like that!
A crime that would be tricky to commit against women at night because a) The trail wouldn't be used frequently so the guy probably wouldn't bother walking up there b) The crim wouldn't know the approaching MTB was female and c) The approaching MTB wouldn't be able to get a very good view of the crim's todger which presumably was his motive for getting it out in the first place.
A classic example of riding at night being far safer than riding during that day - it just feels scary because the core of our brain comes from prehistoric times when shadows were dangerous because the concealed predators.
Tree frogs don’t face issues with house prices making it hard for first time buyers, but that’s not tree frog privilege
You are so amphibianist.
croe
Member
More men kill themsleves in the UK every year due to being screwed over by women in separation/divorce and being kept from seeing their children than there are women killed at the hands of men.
Can you provide your source for this, the only thing I could see after a quick search was this from fathers for justice in late 2017;
The group say that the Government, the Office For National Statistics and the Samaritans have failed to conduct any meaningful research into the suicide rates of separated dads involved in family court proceedings or establish the trigger factors for these deaths.
Well said molgrips
Agree, putting it very clearly although still doesn't seem quite clear enough for some to understand the male privilege aspect in this specific scenario.
Tree frogs don’t face issues with house prices making it hard for first time buyers, but that’s not tree frog privilege
I would imagine that all of those saying that tree frog privilege is tosh are tree frogs suffering from tree frogs privilege.
Agree, putting it very clearly although still doesn’t seem quite clear enough for some to understand the male privilege aspect in this specific scenario.
This specific scenario is a case where there is no male privilege whatsoever. A dark trail "in the middle of no-where" is a total gender leveller. The wildlife doesn't give a toss what gender you are and the rapists and muggers are all looking for victims in urban areas. In the highly unlikely event there was someone hiding in wait they would have no way of knowing the gender of the approaching MTB rider.
You might as well argue women shouldn't fly light aircraft at night because rapists might be hiding in the clouds.
This thread is genuinely making me despair.
Nobody is saying that men don't face issues. They are different issues. That's why there's an International Men's Day. It tries to raise awareness of the issues we face such as the disproportionately high rate of male suicide, poor mental health care, equality in marriage separation and parental right, certain particularly vicious cancers, etc.
What men don't, as a general rule, experience is
Before I’d left school I’d had a man expose his genitalia to me, at random, on my way home from school. I’d been kerb crawled on my paper round. And for a girl growing up in Bushey, this was not unusual. From an early age you start to adapt. If going out after dark is unavoidable it’s a simple routine. Only wear shoes you can run a mile in. Make sure someone knows where you are. Carry your keys between your fingers like a knuckle duster. If you have a handbag sling it satchel style. Zip it up, be prepared to swing it at someone. Don’t wear headphones – you want to hear anyone walking behind you. If someone is approaching from behind, cross the road. If they cross the road, cross the road again. Be prepared to run. When you walk, swing your arms – a moving target is harder to grab hold of. Always know what the last train time is but try to make sure you’re on the one before that. Watch who gets off the train at your stop, think about whether you’re comfortable with them walking behind you. Mess with your shoe, your keys, doing your coat up while they go past. Talk loudly on your phone to an imaginary friend who’s “meeting you round the corner” if you’re at all concerned. Send a WhatsApp live location home. Think about your route home so you stay away from bushes and from quiet roads and from hidden entrances. Don’t get so drunk you can’t be alert and take decisions. All normal stuff.
If you can read that and not be appalled, and still feel like there's not something deeply wrong, then you're likely part of the problem.
Experiences like the above are 'normal', if you actually talk to women of all ages and walks of life, it's a disturbingly common theme, and that's ****ing horrific.
Suicide is not a gender issue
I'm afraid it is you who doesn't quite get this then. If women being afraid to be out alone is a gender issue then so is suicide. Suggesting one is and one isn't is blatantly stupid.
I think the problem is calling it male privilege, rather than issues faced by women.
Well it is on this thread, but really the name is the point. They are issues faced by women, yes, but the point is that men don't have to think about them and are hence unaware of the extent to which it affects women's lives. It's not the behaviour itself that's under discussion, it's the fact that men don't appreciate the effect it has on women's lives.
as far as I’m concerned “male privilege” is a term that is unhelpful in any debate about equality
This isn't a debate about equality though, not as such. There's bad behaviour throughout society, anyone can be the victim of assaults of all kinds of course. This discussion is about raising awareness of the extent to which women suffer from this. I mean, everyone will feel anxious walking through a rough part of town at chucking out time, or when there's a fight going on or something. But many men are unaware of how this kind of fear is everyday, for many women. This is the issue. The OP is a great example - he simply does not feel the need to worry, but his wife does.
I’m afraid it is you who doesn’t quite get this then. If women being afraid to be out alone is a gender issue then so is suicide. Suggesting one is and one isn’t is blatantly stupid.
Well since I'm not a stupid person, maybe you should think again about how you're reading this.
We're not debating the fact that women are vulnerable. We're debating that men are oblivious to how it affects their lives every day.
Just like women are oblivious to how certain things affect men's life everyday that they don't think about is female privilege. But for some reason that narrative doesn't exist.
Because the issue does not exist and / or is not hidden / ignored?
Go on - what issues do you mean?
wherewolves
There wolves!
We’re not debating the fact that women are vulnerable. We’re debating that men are oblivious to how it affects their lives every day.
No we are not, we just don't think its male privilege, rather its issues that affect women. It does not mean we don't care, Just that we object to an incendiary label to describe it.
Everyone is privileged over some others in one way or another. The word has nothing to do with people who don't have that privilege understanding they have that privilege. Its not what privilege means,I think sometimes people should consult the Oxford English dictionary.
Just like women are oblivious to how certain things affect men’s life everyday that they don’t think about is female privilege. But for some reason that narrative doesn’t exist.
Of course there is female privilege in certain scenarios, you can always find a scenario where a privilege exists for pretty much every type of person (colour, race, gender etc,.).
If you want the narrative to exist then start it and we can discuss it. That is nothing to do with a thread about male privilege in the scenario raised on this thread though is it.
Mental health issues and access to treatment/care - all too often the solution is that men need to talk about it more - ie handle it more like women do rather than the solution be tailored to suit men.
Education - young men are being failed by the education system while young women are thriving. This is now showing signs of entering the workplace where young women are overtaking men up until age of 30ish or so.
Homelessness - men living on the fringes with the real threat of being made homelessness every single day. Lack of support compounding this.
Family life - access to their children, family courts etc
Domestic abuse - virtually no support or recognition of the scale of the issue.
all bullshit croe or affects both sexes.
Croe have you the source for your previous assertion?
male privilege in the scenario raised on this thread though is it.
There is no male privilege in the scenario raised on this thread.
A trail at night in the middle of no-where is a total gender leveller.
Sorry kilo I missed your first request. No I don't unfortunately as the source is a close relative doing (what I believe is the first funded) research into this subject at PhD level. There is very little publicy available data breaking down the root causes of suicide or suicide triggers in men. Which is bonkers considering the number of lives lost every year.
Mental health issues and access to treatment/care – all too often the solution is that men need to talk about it more – ie handle it more like women do rather than the solution be tailored to suit men.
If your already 'in the system' female partner came home and revealed how she nearly drove head on into another car on purpose, because she felt she had failed as a wife and a mother(due in part to the pressures of a job where she is trying to survive in a male dominated role despite being more than equal to most of her peers, and simultaneously fulfilling the role of the carer of her child to the 'standatd' of what society seems to expect of a woman who doesn't work), but still can't access necessary mental health provision without going private, you might reassess whether or not the solution is in fact tailored towards either gender.
Domestic abuse – virtually no support or recognition of the scale of the issue.
Again, by underfunded for both genders, but the balance is swinging. Our local authority recently opened some male specific refuge spaces.
As I said, nobody is saying the issues you are raising don't exist, but this is all getting a bit straw man.
I and other men I know have been subject to varying levels of unwanted attention from both men and women out and about. 3/4 of the times for me it was in a kilt, 3/4 of the time it was women. For him I only know of one specific occasion (though there had been others) and it was in a kilt, with a large number of women – but that’s OK cos we’re asking for it if we show a bit of knee, right?
I'm going to take issue with this bit of whataboutery. I've worn a kilt on many occasions and yes been subject to what could be classed as harassment and for the record no I don't think that that's okay. Where my experience differs from that of a woman is that I knew full well that if I became uncomfortable enough I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women. That is the "privilege" that I enjoy due simply to being male. I didn't ask for it, I didn't earn it, it's just the way it is. A woman is far less likely to have such an ability to deal with unwanted and inappropriate attention.
