[Closed] Loft conversion - structural designs....but not done by a structural engineer?

When you say "indemnity" do you mean the architect's insurance?

If so I'd be quite concerned about it apparently having been taken out the day you asked to see it. My Mrs is a Landscape Architect, and one of the conditions of her chartership is that she needs professional indemnity insurance to sign off any work. She must then maintain that insurance cover for a subsequent period of 6 years IIRC. I can't imagine requirements being any less stringent in building architecture.

That said, I guess it perhaps depends on the contractual relationship between you, the loft conversion company, and the architect. Possibly the architect is directly employed by the conversion company or something.

The argument about "losing your slot" sounds like BS: if you have concerns they should be addressing them, especially if you have paid 2k for the plans.

Just to say I'm interested

I have a mate who had a loft done. The guy works in one small town doing very similar houses. He works very much on experience but an engineer did sign it all off. Can't Remember if that was at the design stage our when go finished

If there is a lender involved what do they require? I'm thinking of the mortgage against the house

Your contract is with the loft conversion company, not the architect that they've employed ( with whom you have no contractual relationship whatsover).

His professional indemnity insurance covers his client, the loft company, and not you, a third party.

If you want  an indemnity it'll need to come from the loft company, with whom you do have a contract.

You've employed them to produce a design which meets building standards. If they haven't done that then it is them that's dicking about, not you.

It's much simpler in Scotland where Building Control require a SER certificate for any structural work.

Your contract is with the loft conversion company, not the architect that they’ve employed ( with whom you have no contractual relationship whatsover).

That's a good point. However I'd check that they haven't appointed the architect on your behalf. If you we're building a house the architect and builder would be seperate contracts

What's the difference between the beam the loft co. are saying and the one the architect guy is specifying? Have they actually fitted it yet?

We've just had a single storey ceiling vaulted and, because the existing ceiling was removed, we had to have a steel ridge beam fitted where there was originally just a ridge plate.
The general opinion was that my SE certainly over specified a few things but better safe than sorry I guess.

Building control checking his calcs right now

The developer is legally required to get approval from Building Control, but there's no requirement on Building Control to check anything before they approve, so the standard of checks varies (consider the pressure on Council spending when there are lots of things they are legally required to do). I assume "SW" means SW England - it's different in Scotland.

I can’t imagine requirements being any less stringent in building architecture

All members of the Institution of Structural Engineers must have PI if offering services to the public. If offered through a company, their PI must cover them. An independent check by another qualified SE is good practice, not reliance on BC.

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Hey Oafish, I'm a builder (carpenter by trade) and my company carry out a lot of loft conversions in the London/Hertfordshire area, admittedly not 70 a year, that's starting one every 5 days!

Every loft we take on us deigned in partnership with me and my architect. Once happy with the design it will then be sent off to a structural engineer we use who will calculate all the obvious loading figures and what steelwork we need to use.

Now I've done enough lofts in my time to know exactly what the design will comeback saying, but that doesn't mean I am allowed to officially say you need to use such and such steelwork you support that load, I'm not qualified for that and I don't have the fancy letters after my name!

After that has all been approved by the local authority you will apply for building regs to be granted and pay a fee to have it inspected by the council building Inspector, you can use a private inspection company but I would Strongly advise against that.
Please do a Google search on the demise of Aedis and other private companies.

The Inspector will obviously inspect the work along the way, first inspection is steelwork. If it doesn't match what the drawings and calcs say they won't pass it...

Bottom line, the calcs should be done by someone who knows what there looking at, there are many factors to consider, not just the physical weight loading you need to think about wind loading and many other bits too.

I guess my question is, does this even matter – if his calculations are ok?

Has he actually supplied the calcs that you can look at? It's remarkably detailed as they take into account the wall construction, sizes and types of existing beams, etc. If he hasn't then chances are the builders or the architect guy is making a guess based on experience which, as Jim says, may work but doesn't mean it's OK.
My dad was an architect and there's no way he'd have used his own 'guesses' when it came to anything structural.

you can use a private inspection company but I would Strongly advise against that.

Interesting. I've used a private BC company a few times and found them to be very good - way better and faster than our local council. YMMV though.

Many thanks for the replies.

Yes, the loft company are using a private inspection company (apologies, should have mentioned that) who are checking the calculations the architect has provided. They do seem quite prompt to be fair. We did have to chase quite hard to get this guy to provide them and he wasn't terribly happy about it.

Thanks @Jim25 - that is interesting that you send yours off to a structural engineer.
It seems what has happened here is the company has just missed a step by using this architect for the calcs and beam design etc (perhaps to save money, but maybe because they've done 100's successfully already).

I just want it done properly. Weirdly, the architect (in his slightly ranty phonecall) offered to send his fee back to the loft company so we could get a structural engineer to do it. And told us that we weren't his client, the loft company was (which i guess is correct).It was very odd. I'm sure he must have had PI before as he's older and has done a lot.
Nothing fitted yet, scaffold not even up.
The beam was specified as a ridged beam (by our architect) but the one he specified was not.
I mean, f*ck it, its only a roof, right? 🙂
Thanks for replies. I guess we should get an engineer.

The beam was specified as a ridged beam (by our architect) but the one he specified was not.

Sorry that doesn't make a lot of sense. AFAIK there is no such thing as a 'ridged' bean so maybe you mean a 'ridge beam' which simply runs the length of the roof and is at the very top... it forms the ridge.

So the question is who specified the bigger beam, the architect or the building co? Whichever is the bigger/deeper would be the one I'd be looking at having fitted as there's no harm in over-specifying to an extent.

(I kinda also doubt the private BC company would do the calcs as a) they're possibly not qualified and b) they may not have all the required information.)

Sorry - yes it is a ridge beam (not ridged) - I am pretty ignorant in these things.
And the private BC company have sent the calcs off somewhere else. I guess they will be fine.

I think the bit i'm struggling with is that we were led to believe that the structural calculations would be done by a struc engineer but the loft co have just outsourced to an architect with structural experience. Is that a common thing to happen?

I am an architect, in Scotland, where the procedure is different.

I would never get anything structural specified/ installed without the knowledge that the work had been done by a Chartered Structural Engineer. And the Council would not accept it unless it had been anyway. If I were you I would demand this as part of your agreement, or at least get the whole procedure detailed in writing together with undertakings ensuring compliance with all necessary local authority regulations and warranty details.

I have been involved in many projects where the Client goes to a builder/'architect' (they are usually not architects, and it is against the law for them to refer to themselves as such unless they are qualified) combined company, and because the architect is not appointed independently and protects the client's interests then you can leave yourself open to problems. You are left relying on one company to guide and advise you, and let's face it their main interest is to make money, so their advice/ design may be directed towards achieving their own interests, not necessarily yours. And do you have the knowledge required to check it all properly? Probably not.

The fact that you are on here asking for guidance in the first place is indicative of this company not carrying out their work properly, as is the hurried nature of the PI application.

Is that a common thing to happen?

No