[Closed] Load up, load up, load up, those rubber bullets...

10 000 of them? 😯 the 700 they had OK (maybe ) but 10 000? something corrupt going on there

you only get shot if your an idiot ....

therefore this does not concern me !

Water cannon FTW, always fun to watch.

you only get shot if [b][i][u]your[/u][/i][/b] an idiot ....

therefore this does not concern me !

I beg to differ.

😆

yeah water cannon might be a little less reactive, but makes for great tv.
probably get a deal for the rights with a slightly dodgy broadcaster...

There'd be more furniture and real estate available in Clapham if they'd been used last time around.

"It's like being hit with a ten-pound hammer", moron. Don't even think about it....

"You got a gatt, I got a gatt so we're stuck with that..."

Yeah and the water cannon could have put out the fires too, or at least sprayed a few rioters into the flames.

Good, give the little ****s something to worry about when they are throwing fire extinguishers, petrol bombs and the rest.

Given the high risk of injury or death with plastic bullets, all Met occifers should have it drilled into their thuggish/racist/distorted minds that these firearms are not advisable for general use on civilians by somewhat following the yank Tazer training system.

I suggest any occifer wishing to get his jollies going equipped must bring their (unarmoured) wife and kids along to training, line them up in the range and have another occifer shoot them to qualify. They are safe to use after all.

Good, give the little ****s something to worry about when they are throwing fire extinguishers, petrol bombs and the rest.

@tarquin: Did you just mix up a stoopid student at a demo with criminal gangs? Interesting mindset there. I presume the "rest" means the bankers who tore this country apart, metaphorically burnt down our cozy existence and so untouchable no one is able to get them?

rubber bullets, pah.

look what this bloke found outside his flat;

[url= http://yfrog.com/0z1azz ]http://yfrog.com/0z1azz[/url]

That is some massive stockpiling for a weapon never used on Britain

It is not good news

Oh noes! Where will it all end?

[img] [/img]

Given the high risk of injury or death with plastic bullets

0.0136% - is that really a high risk?

a weapon never used on Britain

Between 2002 and 2004 50 baton rounds were fired in England and Wales, in 37 separate incident, (no deaths or serious injuries), so "never" is a bit weak.

What about stockpiling real weapons for when we need them...

[img] [/img]

was that the Somerset riots?

you only get shot if your an idiot ....

Erm... from the article:

"Stephen McConomy was killed by a rubber bullet after being shot in the head by a soldier at a demonstration in 1982 at the age of 11.
The man who pulled the trigger claimed to have fired by accident and was never prosecuted."
..
Photographer Tony Murray was accidentally hit on the leg by a modern baton round while covering a demonstration for a local newspaper in Belfast last July.

So no. Not just idiots.

all Met occifers should have it drilled into their thuggish/racist/distorted minds

Wow. Negatively-stereotyped officers should know better than to negatively-stereotype?

🙄

bring their (unarmoured) wife and kids along to training, line them up in the range and have another occifer shoot them to qualify. They are safe to use after all.

Again, from the article:

"Any use of force against a person can prove lethal - whether it's a truncheon, whether it's a baton round, even physical force from a police officer." -- Former Met Commander Roy Ramm

I doubt many officers would happily bring their kids along to be truncheoned or sprayed with CS either.

Rubber bullets are not safe. That is acknowledged. They are [i]safer[/i] than being shot with real bullets though.

0.0136% - is that really a high risk?

Source - not saying you are wrong just interested

Zulu-Eleven: is that Traffic Warden hoping to join the [url= http://www.youtube.com/user/Rubberbandits ]Rubber Bandits[/url]?

So one person, thirty years ago was involved in an accident with them, so they are unsafe to use.

Better stop the police driving then, car accidents involving the police kill many more people.

All for it as a deterent measure, perhaps morons will think twice before rioting, rather than thinking that they will get away with it/have a soft touch warning/their lawyer will get them off.

Few shots in the air should be enough for them to get the idea, if they carry on and get shot then it's their own fault. I would rather rioters got shot with rubber bullets and handcuffed than have the police risk their lives against armed gangs of thugs. One group chose to be there, hint, it's not the police.

I'd have no problem with future rioters being dealt with firmly and decisively. It would have stopped very quickly and not escalated if the police had taken a firmer and more proactive approach instead of the Met standing back and watching.

I would prefer the use of water cannon but baton rounds are more mobile.

Few shots in the air should be enough for them to get the idea

Great idea - rather than shoot at targets you can see, just shoot randomly into the air and hope the rounds don't land on an innocent bystander or car windscreen.

Rubber bullets are not safe. That is [s]acknowledged[/s] rather the point of them. They are safer than being shot with real bullets though.

FTFY.

id rather see rubber bullets used on bankers tbh

they cost the country far more to clean up after the financial crash than the rioters did

Source

Jane's Police Products Review oct 2007

ca. 125,000 baton rounds fired in NI over 35 years, 17 deaths This works out at an average of ten rounds per day and one death every two years, or a death rate of 0.0136%.

Baton round has been changed in design twice since the last death in 89, to reduce its weight and give it a head that deforms if it hits a hard object such as head or breast bone, reducing beak impact force by up to 50%.

So, you'd take it from that that its likley to be even safer than the 35 year figures.

you only get shot if your an idiot ....

That´s not true. A 28 yr old died from a rubber bullet shot straight at him after a football match here in Spain. His crime - being a fan of his local team.
I personally know another guy here who lost an eye after a rubber bullet (correctly) aimed at the ground, hit him. This was during the passing of a political demonstration in which he was not involved.

Since 1990, 23 people (in the Basque Country) have lost an eye due to these "non lethal" weapons.
Granted, some were disturbing the peace or illegally demonstrating but the risk of bystanders being hit and lack of control by the police is too high.

Only the police in France and Spain use these bullets, welcome to the club.

Former Met Commander Roy Ramm said: "I don't think there is any doubt their use can be justified, but the circumstances have to be right.

"At the end of the day it's a matter for the guy actually holding the gun to make that decision.

"Any use of force against a person can prove lethal - whether it's a truncheon, whether it's a baton round, even physical force from a police officer."

Anyone else read that last line and think of Ian Tomlinson?

Great idea - rather than shoot at targets you can see, just shoot randomly into the air and hope the rounds don't land on an innocent bystander or car windscreen.

Or just carry on as before and the car with a broken windscreen from a rubber bullet will be overturned and torched instead along with half of Birmingham and London.

No big loss ill admit, but I can't imagine people were happy about it.

What would you suggest?

[url=

them hard and fast with a major, I mean a major leaflet campaign?[/url]

What would you suggest?
Hit them hard and fast with a major, I mean a major leaflet campaign?

If you read what I wrote you'll see I'm happy for the police to have access to and use rubber bullets - provided they are used in a proportionate, justified and responsible manner - which doesn't include shooting them into the air at random.

It's a great idea -no more "did he fall over, was it excessive restraint".

"I was proceeding along the road when I assumed he was guilty so shot him in the face. Reloaded and shot him again to ensure he was pacified".

"Yes he did say 'Please help me I want to go home.'"

I assumed he was a terrorist.

richc - yes.

eat the rich

Would tear gas not be a better next step?
I would think with the sentences handed out most rioters will think twice.

*applauds Z11 for a great couple of posts using facts and accurate figures to make his point*

Rubber bullets are not safe. That is [s]acknowledged[/s] rather the point of them. They are safer than being shot with real bullets though.

FTFY

What a load of tosh.

If the "point of them" was to be unsafe, they would just use normal bullets 🙄

The whole idea of the continued development of rubber bullets has been to make them as safe as possible.

I'd love to seee the footage of the first rioter's "look of surprise" when they took a baton round UTA...

....C'mon let's be honest, the rioters are just out for a free for all rather than expressing any coherent protest , and the endless dreary rent-a-mobbers on the city streets are just doing it for shitz'n'giggles.
I couldn't personally care less what happens to them, as long as I can watch it on You Tube later 😆

mrdestructo - Member
all Met occifers should have it drilled into their thuggish/racist/distorted minds

I'm a met officer and I'm none of those. Nice stereotyping though..........

Tory government are expecting it to kick off. I wonder why that could be, it's not like there are over a million young people getting totally ****ed over or anything is it?

Buy rubber bullets and water cannon, thats the answer.

What happened to the video footage of undercover police infiltrating a protest and trying to escalate it by attacking people?

Saw it on here a while ago, anyone have a link to it?

Can they use water cannons if there is a hosepipe ban?

Tory government are expecting it to kick off. I wonder why that could be, it's not like there are over a million young people getting totally ****ed over or anything is it?

I wouldn't worry about it, after the cuts its not as if there are going to be many Police left anyway.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

Source

Jane's Police Products Review oct 2007

ca. 125,000 baton rounds fired in NI over 35 years, 17 deaths This works out at an average of ten rounds per day and one death every two years, or a death rate of 0.0136%.

Baton round has been changed in design twice since the last death in 89, to reduce its weight and give it a head that deforms if it hits a hard object such as head or breast bone, reducing beak impact force by up to 50%.

So, you'd take it from that that its likley to be even safer than the 35 year figures.

To get an accurate 'death rate' you'd need to compare the amount that hit rather than just fired.

I got clipped by a rubber bullet in a training scenario. Couldn't ride for 5 weeks due to bruising/swelling. Walking was bad enough (hit mid thigh, round bounced off a wall and hit me).

in determinate discharge in a public place is a bad idea.

To get an accurate 'death rate' you'd need to compare the amount that hit rather than just fired.

Why? do you think that the ones fired in Northern Ireland were intended to miss (from the lads I know, I'm pretty confident that they were fired very much with the intention of not missing!)

I wonder if there's a perfectly ordinary explanation for the sudden increase

like perhaps the Home office maintained store of riot control equipment, which included baton rounds, CS gas and everything else, of which there has been one since the early 1980's, was administrativley transferred from home office control to police control during the riots that ocurred last year?

Of course, that wouldnt fit the "oh noes, evil Tories" agenda of the tin foil hat wearers and lefties - it would seem a more sensible and realistic likelihood than suddenly magically finding an extra 10,000 down the back of the sofa, wouldn't it.

Now, of course, some of you might be shocked to learn that the Home office have seperate stores of equipment, that can be issued in times of disorder, as part of the royal perogative and the duty on the crown to maintain law and order - but it has been a matter of record for years, there was even a fairly important constitutional [url= http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1987/5.html ]court case[/url] on the issue...

Still, I'm sure that the explanation must be far, far more sinister than a transfer of baton rounds from the Home office to the police, when the Home Secretary had announced that they would have the authority to use them if needed, eh?

of which there has been one since the early 1980's

the riots that ocurred last year?

Just trying to remember if there were any significant riots during the 10 years of Labour?

Dunno, ask the people of Bradford, Oldham, Burnley & Birmingham 😉

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Oldham_race_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Bradford_race_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Birmingham_race_riots

Zulu-Eleven - Member

"To get an accurate 'death rate' you'd need to compare the amount that hit rather than just fired."

Why? do you think that the ones fired in Northern Ireland were intended to miss (from the lads I know, I'm pretty confident that they were fired very much with the intention of not missing!)

Where did you get intentionally missed from?

Do you think they're 100% accurate?

Ones that miss have no chance of causing death. Because they miss. A percentage of those that hit cause deaths, and that is the real death rate.

10000 is not that many really is it? Enough to have them stock piled in a number of handy locations around the capital and arm a couple of hundred suitably qualified police with enough for a busy night and enough spare for the same again the next day. Can't imagine any sane Commissioner would want to be in charge when even a fraction got used but it would be proper embarrassing to run out. Cost buttons in the big scheme of things and the whole lot would fit in a dozen suit cases.

No biggie IMO.

Do you think they're 100% accurate?

The AEP is claimed to exceed 95% accuracy against a 400mm x 600mm target at 50m. again, source, Janes...

so, pretty good - but for the sake of making you happy, 95% accuracy would indicate that your death rate would increase to 0.0143% instead of 0.0136 %

happy now 😉

It was a question, so thanks.

Well, I think you could argue that a fair percentage of those that miss their intended target end up hitting someone else, who was not the intended target, hit them in a part of the body that was not intended, and may in that case cause death, infact its probably more likley to result in death in a situation where they miss their intended target in a chaotic crowd/riot situation with lots of other people around and hit someone else in the head, rather than the lower body of the person they were being aimed at, and that the figure of seventeen would include those killed where the victim was not the intended target - 125,000 is a pretty big sample size to account for "all sorts of eventualities and blind chance" - but if anything you could argue that the more modern ones, with better accuracy and more modern launchers, with red dot/laser sights, are goign to be more likley to hit the intended target than the older ones and therefore safer.

from the lads I know

Wow, you know lads that fired rubber bullets...does that make up just a little pit for the feelings of impotence you have for not having had the chance to fire one yourself? Must feel pretty awesome for a guy like you Zulu.

Otherwise, what a bollocks statistic - something that's supposed not to kill actually killed seventeen people. That's a fantastic success rate. You must have spaffed all over your copy of Janes when you read that.

10 000 baton rounds is an absurd number. that years of supply at the rate they were used in NI during the height of the troubles.

Funnily enough DD, I've not fired a baton round, but I have fired bean bag rounds, which are quite a clever little invention, you can even make a little chair for a pet mouse out of them afterwards, how cute 😉

something that's supposed not to kill

I think that's why they call them "less lethal" rather than "non lethal" 🙄

I think that's why they call them "less lethal" rather than "non lethal"

Well, I dunno Zulu, what are they supposed to do, kill or not kill (and just kinda sting a bit)? You're our weapons expert...or at least, you seem to be the one that likes them most.

death rate would increase to 0.0143% instead of 0.0136 %

What a low rate of death! I'm sure that figure provides great comfort to the families of civilians killed by baton rounds, as it would be to you should one of your family members get hit in the head by a ricochet whilst out shopping.

Given the high risk of injury or death with plastic bullets, all Met occifers should have it drilled into their thuggish/racist/distorted minds that these firearms are not advisable for general use on civilians by somewhat following the yank Tazer training system.

'civil' ians should be fine.

Anybody got any statistic for the number of M16 5.56mm rounds fired versus number of deaths since 1990?

I have a feeling it's going to prove that the combination of M16 and M16 5.56mm rounds is indeed quite safe - with a staggeringly low death rate. Somebody's got to have read a publication with the statistics? If the pages aren't still stuck together, can that person dig them out for me please?

10 000 baton rounds is an absurd number. that years of supply at the rate they were used in NI during the height of the troubles.

there's a substantial difference between numbers used and numbers deployed and reserved.

SO19/CO19 (whatever theyre called) probably have thousands of live rounds at their disposal. Each officer will have a couple of magazines of 20+ rounds each on their person, probably a load more in the boot of the car. And then reserves in the armoury. It doesnt mean theyre planning on deploying them all in one saturday night gun-toting columbine-style cordite-fest does it?

Yoghurt-knitting synthetic outrage of the highest order.

Should one of your family members get hit in the head by a ricochet whilst out shopping.

Do your family members often go shopping while there's a full blown riot going on just down the street Papa Lazarou? Mine dont!

oldgit - Member
Given the high risk of injury or death with plastic bullets, all Met occifers should have it drilled into their thuggish/racist/distorted minds that these firearms are not advisable for general use on civilians by somewhat following the yank Tazer training system.
'civil' ians should be fine.

unless they are kindof dark skinned and running late for their tube

stoner - but what possible purpose does 10 000 of them have?

No way on earth is that any sort of a sensible number considering they have never been deployed on the mainland - hundreds might be reasonable - 10 000? come off it - thats just a huge waste of money

I got loads of stuff given to me for free during the last riots. It's a bloody brilliant time to go shopping.

Yoghurt-knitting synthetic outrage of the highest order.

Synthetic? Surely that should be organic and fair trade?

😉

Maybe rubber bullets were on a bogof or soemthing?

stoner - but what possible purpose does 10 000 of them have?

To kill 1.43 persons?

the Royal Artillery fired 170,000,000 shells in the first world war.

I do wonder if their fatality rate/shell was actually any 'better' than rubber bullets fired by British Police at civilians?

TJ - read my post above. It's about deploying and storing in multiple locations in sufficient quantities and reducing reliance on transport and increasing response time. Only one thing worse than having to use baton rounds on your own population and that's getting there late in the day when you have totally lost control and having to use a lot more of them.

They'll also be wanting to lob off a few to make sure they know how to use them and increase the number of officers qualified to use them (to improve the above) which will use quite a few a year I'd imagine.

I'd save getting your knickers in a twist for when we actually have disproportionate USE of them on the mainland.

I have fired a few back in the day. They are highly inaccurate because the converted Very pistol that fires them has such a short barrel. So much so that our RUC brothers would hit the ground with them by mistake making the bullets mistakenly bounce up, hitting the protesting catholics at groin height. by mistake. Don't remember seeing them used against protesting protestants though. Funny that.

Convert - I read it. Its no excuse for 10 000 of them. How many locations? How many in use in any one incident? How many officers that are able to use them. Its totally OTT

I am not outraged - I merely point out the stupidity of this and wonder if its corrupt purchasing - someone just made a load of money on this

They have never been used on the mainland, the met had 700 of them - what has changed that they now need 10 000 of them?

I'd save getting your knickers in a twist for when we actually have disproportionate USE of them on the mainland.

That would be too late.

to kill 1.43 persons

I nominate.....

seconded

Some of the slavering gun nuts?

I'm happy to be the 0.43.

0.57 of me is enough for any world anyway. 🙂

Its no excuse for 10 000 of them. How many locations? How many in use in any one incident? How many officers that are able to use them.

No idea.

You seem to be an expert on how many they need though, so what are the answers to those questions ?

Details please.

They have never been used on the mainland, the met had 700 of them - [b] what has changed [/b]that they now need 10 000 of them?

Maybe their policy on usage ?

Quite surprised they didn't run it past you first to be honest.

Quite surprised they didn't run it past you first to be honest.

*Chuckles*

wonder if its corrupt purchasing - someone just made a load of money on this

They're about a quid each!

Maybe their policy on usage ?

If the police have changed the policy on using rubber bullets, I would hope it would be part of a public review to do so, not a secret change.